Benedictine Altar Arrangement

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hamburglar

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I am interested in bring a proposal to the College about using the Benedictine arrangement for our Altar at the College Chapel. I’m looking for an estimate of the cost for this. Here would be what I need:
  • Six Candles
  • Altar linens (we currently have an ugly cloth-type thing)
  • Altar Crucifix
If all three are not possible to get at this time, the candles would be the most important, as well as the Altar linens.

What would be the approximate cost of this and where would the College acquire these items?
 
hamburglar said:
I am interested in bring a proposal to the College about using the Benedictine arrangement for our Altar at the College Chapel. … What would be the approximate cost of this and where would the College acquire these items?
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I would suggest asking people at the New Liturgical Movement blog, or perhaps even Father Z’s WDTPRS blog.
 
hamburglar said:
I am interested in bring a proposal to the College about using the Benedictine arrangement for our Altar at the College Chapel. I’m looking for an estimate of the cost for this. Here would be what I need:
  • Six Candles
  • Altar linens (we currently have an ugly cloth-type thing)
  • Altar Crucifix
    If all three are not possible to get at this time, the candles would be the most important, as well as the Altar linens.
What would be the approximate cost of this and where would the College acquire these items?
Click to expand...
I would suggest checking church supplies sites in the web.
 
You might want to check with local Catholic Churches in your area. They may have old church items that are not being used and take up space. They may want to donate them to a good cause. Our parish sends old items like vestments, candles, old Easter candles, etc. to mission churches.
 
Dear Hamburglar,

Long time no see 🙂 !!

What do you mean by “Benedictine arrangement” ?

Are you talking about Choir seating for the congregation ?

If there anything universal in “benedictian” style worship, it would be one of simplicity.

The idea of a crucifix on the altar is not a benedictian one, I believe that there is a directive from the USCCB that would counter to that idea.

Let me know what exactly you are looking for and I’ll try and track it down for you.

Your brother in Christ,

Br Mark, OSB
 
Br_Mark said:
Dear Hamburglar,

Long time no see 🙂 !!

What do you mean by “Benedictine arrangement” ?

Are you talking about Choir seating for the congregation ?

If there anything universal in “benedictian” style worship, it would be one of simplicity.

The idea of a crucifix on the altar is not a benedictian one, I believe that there is a directive from the USCCB that would counter to that idea.

Let me know what exactly you are looking for and I’ll try and track it down for you.

Your brother in Christ,

Br Mark, OSB
Click to expand...
I believe that by “Benedictine Altar Arrangement” the OP means the style of altar arrangement used by PP Benedict XVI: the six tall candles plus tall Crucifix in the centre. The style is really very much the same as the way the High Altar was traditionally arrayed in the “olden days.” Nice to see it back. IMO, though, it’s a shame that it’s not a requirement.
 
malphono said:
I believe that by “Benedictine Altar Arrangement” the OP means the style of altar arrangement used by PP Benedict XVI: the six tall candles plus tall Crucifix in the centre. The style is really very much the same as the way the High Altar was traditionally arrayed in the “olden days.” Nice to see it back. IMO, though, it’s a shame that it’s not a requirement.
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Yes, that is what I am referring to.
 
Br_Mark said:
Dear Hamburglar,

Long time no see 🙂 !!

What do you mean by “Benedictine arrangement” ?

Are you talking about Choir seating for the congregation ?

If there anything universal in “benedictian” style worship, it would be one of simplicity.

The idea of a crucifix on the altar is not a benedictian one, I believe that there is a directive from the USCCB that would counter to that idea.

Let me know what exactly you are looking for and I’ll try and track it down for you.

Your brother in Christ,

Br Mark, OSB
Click to expand...
However, that directive didn’t seem to apply when the Holy Father celebrated Mass at St. Patrick’s Cathedral. He had his trademark Benedictine arrangment with the seven candles and the crucifix in the middle.

There is a reason for his altar arrangement. It is to place the focus on the salviffic mysteries bequeathed to us by Our Lord and not on the celebrant. Pope Benedict has long favored, even as Cardinal Ratzinger, the ad orientum posture during Mass. This is his way of maintaining that posture when he celebrates Mass, I reckon.
 
benedictgal said:
However, that directive didn’t seem to apply when the Holy Father celebrated Mass at St. Patrick’s Cathedral. He had his trademark Benedictine arrangment with the seven candles and the crucifix in the middle.

There is a reason for his altar arrangement. It is to place the focus on the salviffic mysteries bequeathed to us by Our Lord and not on the celebrant. Pope Benedict has long favored, even as Cardinal Ratzinger, the ad orientum posture during Mass. This is his way of maintaining that posture when he celebrates Mass, I reckon.
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I’m pretty sure that when Pope Benedict celebrates versus populum he faces the altar crucifix towards him.
 
The seven candles on the altar are a privilege of BISHOPS at Mass.

There’s nothing particularly “Benedict XVI” about it, except for following episcopal custom.
 
The tradition of using seven candles on the altar is less than 800 years old, see the book, Shape of the Liturgy.

Dear DixitDominus:

No there isn’t; I assume you are referring to the USCCB. I refer you to two publications by the USCCB; Built of Living Stones and Norms for Eucharistic Celebrations ----- both USCCB publications.

Or refer to GIRM chapter 5 #306 & #307. When talking about objects placed on the altar, none are to "interfer with the faithful clear view of what takes place at the altar.

In Christ’s Service,

Br Mark, OSB
 
Br_Mark said:
… I assume you are referring to the USCCB. I refer you to two publications by the USCCB; Built of Living Stones and Norms for Eucharistic Celebrations ----- both USCCB publications.

Or refer to GIRM chapter 5 #306 & #307. When talking about objects placed on the altar, none are to "interfer with the faithful clear view of what takes place at the altar.

In Christ’s Service,

Br Mark, OSB
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Your meaning is a bit unclear to me, and I’m sure to others as well.

Are you saying that 6 candles and a Crucifix in the center of the altar (ala the Benedictine Arrangement) “interferes” with a “… view of what takes place …”?

Would you mind clarifying?
 
Regarding the candlesticks (or candle holders), these two websites have some very good quality stuff for reasonable prices:

www.nioras.com
www.oramaworld.com

They’re Orthodox, but there’s nothing wrong with using them. You might also find an Altar Crucifix there; they have “Crosses for Cenotaphs” and “Blessing Crosses” on this page nioras.com/index.php?cPath=4000&osCsid=70b32141ea6aae55586c4d7a16a28b77; ask if they can make a special stand for you. I got my Wall Crucifix from their Crosses for Cenotaphs, although I had to saw in a ridge in the back so I could hang it off my wall.

For the altar linens and candles, try CatholicDirect.com to request for their catalogue. They’re wholesalers and can give you good prices. Funnily enough, the beeswax candles all together will cost the most (they’re over seventy bucks each). Make sure you buy the “burner” (metal thing that goes around the top) and the “globe” (glass tube that goes around the whole candle to protect it from wind) to make them last longer.

catholicdirect.com/altar-linen-set-p2652.html for the linens.

You might also wanna get a cover for the Book of the Gospels; the Nioras site has tem for a couple hundred bucks, which sounds like it’s a lot, but American websites sell them for thousands of dollars.
hamburglar said:
I am interested in bring a proposal to the College about using the Benedictine arrangement for our Altar at the College Chapel. I’m looking for an estimate of the cost for this. Here would be what I need:
  • Six Candles
  • Altar linens (we currently have an ugly cloth-type thing)
  • Altar Crucifix
If all three are not possible to get at this time, the candles would be the most important, as well as the Altar linens.

What would be the approximate cost of this and where would the College acquire these items?
Click to expand...
 
Dear Malphono,

There is one school of thought that goes that if we some how place everything on the altar that it is somehow more sacred.
i.e. candles, crucifix, missal stand, chalice, paten, ciborum, reserve sacrament, offering / collection plates / baskets, etc.

The basic concept is to keep it simple so that the real meaning of the action that is taking place can be observed.

In other words if something is blocking your view of the action that is taking place on the altar -------should it be there? And the answer is “clearly” -------- NO.

Hope that ansers your question,

Br Mark, OSB
 
Br_Mark said:
Dear Malphono,

There is one school of thought that goes that if we some how place everything on the altar that it is somehow more sacred.
i.e. candles, crucifix, missal stand, chalice, paten, ciborum, reserve sacrament, offering / collection plates / baskets, etc.

The basic concept is to keep it simple so that the real meaning of the action that is taking place can be observed.

In other words if something is blocking your view of the action that is taking place on the altar -------should it be there? And the answer is “clearly” -------- NO.

Hope that ansers your question,

Br Mark, OSB
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Yes it does. Perhaps you should explain that to PP Benedict XVI since, according to your theory, he is clearly in error. And so am I and so are many many others. Apparently Bugnini strikes anew.
 
Dear Malphono,

It is not a matter of being in “error” as you put it; it is a matter of being liturgically clear of what actions that are taking place.

I would suggest that you read any of the number of books available regarding the theology of the Eucharist.

Br Mark, OSB
 
Br_Mark said:
Dear Malphono,

It is not a matter of being in “error” as you put it; it is a matter of being liturgically clear of what actions that are taking place.

I would suggest that you read any of the number of books available regarding the theology of the Eucharist.

Br Mark, OSB
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And I still suggest that you explain this to PP Benedict XVI. I’m sure he’d be most grateful. :rolleyes:

As I said, Bugnini strikes again.😦
 
Dear Malphono,

Bugnini -------Oh yes the old conspiracy theory regarding the new liturgy. Lets get this straight… are you of the party that claims that Bugnini was influenced by the Masons or the party that blames the protestants ? Well regardless both “theories” holds as much water as a bucket without a bottom.

I would recommend that you read, “The Shape of the Liturgy” by Gregory Dix published in 1947 and take a run through the Didache to get a better handle of the subject of the Liturgy.

Br Mark, OSB
 
Br_Mark said:
Dear Malphono,

Bugnini -------Oh yes the old conspiracy theory regarding the new liturgy. Lets get this straight… are you of the party that claims that Bugnini was influenced by the Masons or the party that blames the protestants ? Well regardless both “theories” holds as much water as a bucket without a bottom.

I would recommend that you read, “The Shape of the Liturgy” by Gregory Dix published in 1947 and take a run through the Didache to get a better handle of the subject of the Liturgy.

Br Mark, OSB
Click to expand...
No, I am not of the Masonic conspiracy school, nor do I give a hoot about Protestants. I am of the school that says Bugnini and company were (and are, since they are alive and unfortunately well) liturgical butchers who were/are in opposition to what PP Benedict XVI has termed the hermeneutic of continuity.

Further, for you information, I quite well understand liturgy, and the theology of the Eucharist. More so than you will ever know. According to your misrepresentation, the ad orientem position in and of itself would “interfere with the faithful clear view of what takes place at the altar” and that, my friend, is a lot of hooey.

Ah yes, I have been exposed: horror of horrors, I am of the ad orientem school, and may I add, very proudly so. And no, I am not a fan of the Novus Ordo (for a variety of reasons that I will not go into in this forum), but that has little bearing: even the rubrics of the Novus Ordo presume ad orientem.

Reduced to its simplest form, the “Benedictine Arrangement” is a “bridge” between the true ad orientem posture and what is commonly called versus populum. When the the “Benedictine Arrangement” is used in a versus populum celebration, the focus for both the celebrant and the congregation is the Crucifix. Somewhat similar to the actual use of ad orientem. In any case, to say that candlesticks and a Crucifix “interfere” with anything is just bizarre. I would hardly presume a Crucifix to be “out of place” during Holy Mass.
 
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