Benedictine Oblate #2

  • Thread starter Thread starter Luigi_Daniele
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m very curious about the poverty aspect of Third Orders. I’m a lawyer, so I admit to having enjoyed a fairly luxurious lifestyle over the years. Accommodations exist for family members because they make no promises involving poverty, but what is expected of me? As a lawyer in Washington, DC, I must fit in with the expectations of my profession, although I can certainly avoid Maurice Lacroix watches and Gucci loafers! From the book “To Live as Francis Lived: A Guide for Secular Franciscans”, I learned that poverty is essentially a relative state based on individual circumstances. I clearly want to focus my life on prayer, contemplation, and fraternity in Christ, not materialism. Yet I do not want to be judged harshly by my Lord or the peers of my prospective Order.
 
Tampa_Dave said:
I’m very curious about the poverty aspect of Third Orders. I’m a lawyer, so I admit to having enjoyed a fairly luxurious lifestyle over the years. Accommodations exist for family members because they make no promises involving poverty, but what is expected of me? As a lawyer in Washington, DC, I must fit in with the expectations of my profession, although I can certainly avoid Maurice Lacroix watches and Gucci loafers! From the book “To Live as Francis Lived: A Guide for Secular Franciscans”, I learned that poverty is essentially a relative state based on individual circumstances. I clearly want to focus my life on prayer, contemplation, and fraternity in Christ, not materialism. Yet I do not want to be judged harshly by my Lord or the peers of my prospective Order.
Click to expand...
With every secular/third/lay order/oblate that I have looked into the statement is made that one is expected to live the life of the order as their circumstances in life allow. Obviously, you need to look professional in your field of employment and this entails a certain quality of clothing, suit, etc.

If you are looking to get any real advice on this from the Franciscan point of view, I advise you to solicit Brother JR’s (name removed by moderator)ut on one of the many threads on the OFS (formerly SFO) here on CAF. He has worked with the OFS for many years and has likely come across this situation in the past. He’d also probably be happy to have you donate to the Franciscans of Life as well if you are looking to lighten your wallet a bit. 😃

As for being judged harshly by our Blessed Lord, I would not worry about that. The Church does not condemn wealth, but does suggest that it comes with responsibility to do good things. The Compendium for the Social Doctrine of the Church actually describes wealth as a blessing from God. From what little I know of you on these forums, you do not strike me as a hoarder who does not give to those in need. Obviously all of us can do more, but that is something to be gone over with a competent spiritual director who is well versed in Church teachings on the matter so that you can get competent guidance.
 
Jason,

In downtown Washington, DC, everyone is trying to lighten your wallet!
 
jwinch2 said:
With every secular/third/lay order/oblate that I have looked into the statement is made that one is expected to live the life of the order as their circumstances in life allow. Obviously, you need to look professional in your field of employment and this entails a certain quality of clothing, suit, etc.

If you are looking to get any real advice on this from the Franciscan point of view, I advise you to solicit Brother JR’s (name removed by moderator)ut on one of the many threads on the OFS (formerly SFO) here on CAF. He has worked with the OFS for many years and has likely come across this situation in the past. He’d also probably be happy to have you donate to the Franciscans of Life as well if you are looking to lighten your wallet a bit. 😃

As for being judged harshly by our Blessed Lord, I would not worry about that. The Church does not condemn wealth, but does suggest that it comes with responsibility to do good things. The Compendium for the Social Doctrine of the Church actually describes wealth as a blessing from God. From what little I know of you on these forums, you do not strike me as a hoarder who does not give to those in need. Obviously all of us can do more, but that is something to be gone over with a competent spiritual director who is well versed in Church teachings on the matter so that you can get competent guidance.
Click to expand...
I just read one of Brother JR’s posts regarding poverty. I will look it up again later and re-post the crucial excerpts in this thread.

We generously donate to the Church and Catholic Charities. We always sponsor multiple children at Christmas time to insure they enjoy a nice holiday. Clearly, we can always do more for others throughout the year. I will never meet the lofty heights of St. Francis when it comes to selflessness.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Actually the Franciscan are contemplative and do public works. There is a famous story that has Francis wrestling with the idea of which to do, prayer or work. Chiara (Clare) and a very devout brother whose name escapes me just now :o both answered: Both. 🙂

If you are drawn to contemplation (Lectio Divina), then go with the Bennies. 🙂
Click to expand...
From Brother JR in another thread:

"When the Rule was revised in 1978 and the Constitutions were rewritten in 2000 they called for a return to the original spirit of the Secular Franciscan Order, to live the Gospel in the manner of St. Francis. We are to live the Gospel within the secular environment, without allowing it to contaminate us. We are to sanctify the secular world through our presence and our penance. Above all we are to serve the Church as a religious order dedicated to the conversion of Catholics. That’s why we were founded.

But the older generation is still very activity and outcome oriented. In other words, they are still very oriented toward the apostolic labours and often the ascetic practices are sacrificed, because of the belief that we must go out and convert the world. Nothing was further from Francis’ mind when he founded the Secular Order. This was a response to the needs of bishops. Francis did command his sons and daughters to assist the secular clergy when asked to do so. Unfortunately, the Bishops asked for too much and the external appearance of the order has suffered.

It will take a long time until this generation has passed and the younger generation and those older persons who want to recover the original spirit of the Order become more visible. Then you will see the ancient ascetical Franciscan life again. You can choose to be one of those who bring back the desired recovery that the Church has called us to do or you can walk away; but what will you have contributed to the Church and to the great Franciscan family?

There already are many of us who are living more like the original Secular Franciscans, but we are not a cast apart from our brothers and sisters who became “lay apostles.” They are our brothers and sisters. They did what they did in response to the needs of the Church and at the request of the Church. Those of us who are returning to our ancient traditions honor and thank them for what they have done."

Apparently, the Order is trying to get back to the basics of monastic life versus apostolic works. Personally, I like the trend. I am seeking a vocation of prayer, contemplation and fraternity, not a position with the Knights of Columbus.
 
Jason,

I found the quote from Brother JR. Excerpts appear below:

"It is also extremely important to remember that it has been historians who have painted a somewhat distorted picture of our holy father Francis as being all about poverty.

Nothing could be further from the truth. If one reads the right of profession as he wrote it, it places obedience first, poverty second and chastity third.

If we read his personal writings, poverty is always an expression of an inner conversion. It is not poverty for the sake of being poor. It is detachment for the sake of being open to Christ’s work. Case in point, during his life many scholars joined the order. Among them was St. Anthony of Padua. Anthony wanted to send the brothers to the University of Padua and Paris to get doctoral degrees in theology. This cost money. Francis wrote a letter to Anthony in which he authorized this expense and this level of higher education as long as it did not extinguish the spirit of prayer. Observe that Francis’ concern was with the friar’s prayer life, not the cost or status of a Doctorate in Theology.

Bonaventure himself was educated in Paris and taught there for many years. He was one of the most humble and holy men in the history of our Franciscan family.

Someone mentioned Fr. Benedict Groeschel. Let us remember that Father Benedict has not founded a new order. The Franciscans of the Reform are a branch of the Capuchins, founded by St. Francis. They were founded in response to the need for friars who were not attached to parishes, but who serve in the inner city, especially on the streets. Their Constitution continues to be the same as the Capuchins and they are not an independent order. They are a diocesan society in the Archdiocese of NY. But they were not founded because they found something lacking in the Capuchin Friars Minor, but because they found a need in the local Church that the Capuchins could not address, because of their commitments to parishes, something that the Capuchins are trying to correct by pulling out of many parishes. But this will take time and Fr. Benedict knew it. The poverty on the streets of NY is so great that the friars could not wait for the local bishops to drum up diocesan vocations to cover the parishes that the Capuchins want to vacate. This was the fastest way to respond to the needs of the poor. They do a wonderful job.

Nontheless, every CFR friar must have at least a Master’s degree in theology and another Master’s degree in a secular discipline. Degrees cost money. Fr. Benedict has a MA in theology and a PhD in psychology.

We have to be careful how we define poverty and how we apply detachment. The Lord and St. Francis do not want us to detach from what will help men save souls and improve the quality of life in society. True detachment is from our aspirations that lead away from God and our aspirations for the things that we want, rather than the things that we need. In a consumer society as we have today, any one who lives by this rule, detachment from wants and responsible use of necessary resources, is a shining light in the night."

Brother JR is a Franciscan genius.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
2. I, too, am torn between the OFS and the Oblates. Decision time is the 1st 2 weeks in July.

🙂
Click to expand...
Luigi,

I’m curious. Where are you in the decision process between the Franciscans and the Benedictines? Are you leaning in a certain direction?

I’m not sure where Jason is with respect to Third Order affiliation. I thought he was leaning towards the Benedictines.

David
 
Tampa_Dave said:
Luigi,

I’m curious. Where are you in the decision process between the Franciscans and the Benedictines? Are you leaning in a certain direction?

I’m not sure where Jason is with respect to Third Order affiliation. I thought he was leaning towards the Benedictines.

David
Click to expand...
Not to speak for him, but he is 😃

David,
I am honestly on the knife’s edge. I love “my” monks (only see them once yearly). The major downside is that they are aging, and no new vocations (although they did have someone interested visit for a month recently) 😦 Please pray for them. Also, I absolutely suck at step 4 of Lectio Divina (Contemplatio).
I love the group of OFS that I know at the Fraternity. Also Brother JR here. Saintly people all. The major downside is distance (1 hour each direction).

Prayers appeciated 🙂

-Lou
 
Luigi,

Prayers are forthcoming! I know the decision must be difficult. You are so much further along the path than I am.

For some reason, I’m not feeling it with the Dominicans. The draw of the Benedictine monastery is indeed strong - the ultimate experience in prayer and contemplation. Yet the spirituality of St. Francis is so compelling.

I’ve been reading up on the founding saints of the respective orders. Quite a group!

Am I correct that you attend fraternity meetings with both the Benedictines and the SFO? Have you formalized your relationship to any degree with either order? My curiosity knows no bounds. You and Jason are much more knowledgeable than I in these matters, so I rely heavily upon your joint familiarity and experience.

Keep us posted! May the Holy Spirit guide you in your quest!

David
 
Tampa_Dave said:
I’m not sure where Jason is with respect to Third Order affiliation. I thought he was leaning towards the Benedictines.

David
Click to expand...
That’s a fair assessment at this time. I go on my first retreat at St. Gregory’s Abbey in about a week and a half, so I will likely have a better idea of things then. A Dominican friar I am friendly with also suggested that I attend a private retreat with the new prior in DFW who has a good deal of experience dealing with and helping the Dominican laity before I decide to stop my affiliation with the Order of Preachers. We had a long phone conversation last week and he was very helpful in helping me to discern my path. I am also supposed to be attending the fall Oblate retreat at Subiaco Abbey in August. I am unsure of when I will be able to schedule the Dominican retreat so this process will likely draw out for some time yet.

In the meantime, I am doing a good bit of reading, alot of praying, and trying to be patient.
 
Tampa_Dave said:
Luigi,

Prayers are forthcoming! I know the decision must be difficult. You are so much further along the path than I am.

For some reason, I’m not feeling it with the Dominicans. The draw of the Benedictine monastery is indeed strong - the ultimate experience in prayer and contemplation. Yet the spirituality of St. Francis is so compelling.

I’ve been reading up on the founding saints of the respective orders. Quite a group!

Am I correct that you attend fraternity meetings with both the Benedictines and the SFO? Have you formalized your relationship to any degree with either order? My curiosity knows no bounds. You and Jason are much more knowledgeable than I in these matters, so I rely heavily upon your joint familiarity and experience.

Keep us posted! May the Holy Spirit guide you in your quest!

David
Click to expand...
I was an OFS, but had to leave. Some very bad stuff going on.😦
They have “cleaned up their act” considerably since, and I have some dear friends (who were not part of the nuttiness) there.

I have attended Oblate meetings for several years. The biggest negatives are that many of the meetings consist of studying other world religions (nothing wrong with that, if my time was unlimited–it isn’t) and that they have a big charismatic component (nothing wrong with that, either–just ain’t my thing).

I surely will. Thank you so much for the prayers. Praying for you, too.
 
jwinch2 said:
That’s a fair assessment at this time. I go on my first retreat at St. Gregory’s Abbey in about a week and a half, so I will likely have a better idea of things then. A Dominican friar I am friendly with also suggested that I attend a private retreat with the new prior in DFW who has a good deal of experience dealing with and helping the Dominican laity before I decide to stop my affiliation with the Order of Preachers. We had a long phone conversation last week and he was very helpful in helping me to discern my path. I am also supposed to be attending the fall Oblate retreat at Subiaco Abbey in August. I am unsure of when I will be able to schedule the Dominican retreat so this process will likely draw out for some time yet.

In the meantime, I am doing a good bit of reading, alot of praying, and trying to be patient.
Click to expand...
Good luck with your retreats, Jason! Are both abbeys fairly close to your home? If not, and you become an oblate, what would you do for monthly meetings, etc.?

Sounds like you’re still up in the air over which Order you prefer. The Dominicans are trying to keep your interest - that’s good to hear. I like the personal touch by the friar. Seems like you can’t go wrong either way.

Luigi apparently had a rough time with the Secular Franciscans. I’m sorry to hear that. I’m still waiting for a response from the St. Leo oblate group. In the interim, I’m thinking of contacting two local SFO fraternities for information. It can’t hurt to examine and compare the two Orders, right?

David
 
Tampa_Dave said:
Good luck with your retreats, Jason! Are both abbeys fairly close to your home? If not, and you become an oblate, what would you do for monthly meetings, etc.?
Click to expand...
St. Gregory’s is 2.5 hours away and Subiaco is 6.5 hours away. I live in a pretty remote area, about 2.5 hours from any major metro. Making any monthly meetings is not going to be an option for me at this time. At most, I would be able to make a couple of the Oblate retreats and hopefully a private retreat each year. Other than that, I would be pretty much on my own. With any luck, things will be so good at St. Gregory’s that it will be an easy decision between the two and I will have much less of a drive.

Peace,
 
Wow, you are isolated! I hope things work out with St. Gregory. Keep us up to date, Jason. I enjoy following everyone’s path down the road to discernment.
 
Thank you all for what has been an interesting discussion.

I will suggest to those who wonder why Abbeys such as Blue Cloud Abbey receiveed few vocations is because they have departed in certain aspects from the authentic teachings of the Church.

On their website you can see they have 2 episcopal ministers as oblates, have met with various buddhist monks, have an extremely modern iconoclastic factory like chapel, and probably other peculiarities to which a monastery 100 years ago would find unacceptable.

What seems to be missed is that there is a connection between Orthodox theology and Orthodox Liturgy and Sacred Art.

Where we find orthodox liturgy and sacred art we find most often a greater degree of loyalty to the magisterium and Holy Father.

Where we find experimental ideas that betray that compromise toward the secular world and enemies of the Church, we find ultimately decline and death.

Young people, people who seek to be monastics have no interest in these mid-20th century pseudo protestant ideas. They want something that looks, feels and acts historically catholic. Something that is consistent with what was handed down, nothing that appears broken, compromised, devoid of meaning due to resemblence to the local seven eleven.

ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart Episode #170 - A Byzantine Catholic’s journey to, from and back again to the Orthodox Church

This interview illustrates the dillemma faced by many young people looking for the to take vows in religious congregation. I do not advocate everything he does by any means, but I do advocate correcting the problems he identifies. The Church will not be any strong until it returns to the peace and joy of solid catholic tradition.
 
That is not to say that the monks of Blue Cloud are not Catholic and do not have good qualties. Yes I understand they have in many ways lived and done the work of God.

Yet at the same time, their deficiencies and shortcomings are not to be ignored but to be lessons we learn from.

We are constantly being corrected becoming transformed by the One who is the way , the life and the truth.

As many of your are oblates, I recommend this resource to you.

English-language version of text and music of the 2007 Antiphonale Monasticum:

Tones (eight psalm tones, plus others) (chant notation)
Psalter (for hours during week, with other psalms) (chant notation)
Year (Ordinary Time, the green season) (chant notation)
Seasons (Advent, Christmas and Epiphany, Lent, Easter) (chant notation)
Proper of Saints (chant notation)
Common of Saints (chant notation)
BCP Psalter, with Benedictus and Magnificat (modern notation)

75% of this is identical to that of the 1934 Antiphonale Monasticum as found here.
andrewespress.com/mdn.html
 
Dom Desiderius,

Thanks for adding to the conversation.

As Jason and I have noted repeatedly, fidelity to the Magisterium and the Holy See is critical to our association with a monastic order. I agree with many of your points, particularly those concerning the desire of today’s youth to pursue the ways of traditional Catholicism.

I attend Latin Mass every Sunday and the church pews are nearly filled. Many women are veiled. Young families with multiple children proliferate St. Andrews at the Latin Mass, a fact that gives me great optimism for the future.

I await further word from the oblates of St. Leo to determine the degree of their faithfulness to Catholic orthodoxy. The Benedictine appeal is very attractive but, above all, I must remain true to my Catholic faith. I pray for their fidelity to the Church. Should there be a problem, I will look at the secular Franciscans with whom I already have great interest. Given the number of Franciscan fraternities in any locale, I believe my odds of finding a fairly orthodox group are high. And who doesn’t embrace the spirituality of St. Francis of Assisi?
 
Unfortunately, I had heard a couple of things here and there about that particular Abbey as well. I don’t see having non-Catholic oblates as a marker for magesterial fidelity, as many many monasteries do have them while seeming to remain perfectly faithful. I did get an odd vibe when I read “how to be a monastic without leaving your day job…” as it seemed throughout that much more mention was made of non-Catholic oblates than Catholic ones. If you are drawing more non-Catholics than Catholics or Orthodox, that may be indicative of an issue.

Regardless, I hesitate to label any issues with orthodoxy as the reason for the decline in Blue Cloud Abbey. It would be highly unfair for me to do so when I don’t have anywhere near the whole story. I pray that all of the monks will find communities where they can live out their remaining years with dignity in the company of their brothers. I hope that as many of them as is possible can stay together.

I agree with the suggestion that young Catholics discerning a vocation to consecrated life or the priesthood seem to be drawn to places with solid reputations for orthodoxy and magesterial fidelity. This bodes very well for the next generation of priests and religious. I pray that all seminaries, orders of religious, religious congregations, and catholic universities will embrace the entire deposit of faith as handed down from the apostles. That also goes for all bishops, priests, deacons, and the lay faithful.

Peace,
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top