Berkeley College:Arabs Attack Jewish Students

[LDNCatholic]

I do not accept everything I hear from Muslims about Israel, and suicide bombings, anti-semitism and the like disgusts me.

However the murder of innocent children (for throwing rocks), the flattening of houses, the driving out of Palestinians from their homes, by the Israel Defence Forces disgusts me equally.

I am sorry if I jumped the gun a little but it really did read like I was being accused of prejudice, after the prejudice my family and friends suffered in the past (and in the modern day) I hate prejudice (particularly of the racial/ethnic variety) with a passion.

 

[Melchior]

I do not accept everything I hear from Muslims about Israel, and suicide bombings, anti-semitism and the like disgusts me.

However the murder of innocent children (for throwing rocks), the flattening of houses, the driving out of Palestinians from their homes, by the Israel Defence Forces disgusts me equally.

I am sorry if I jumped the gun a little but it really did read like I was being accused of prejudice, after the prejudice my family and friends suffered in the past (and in the modern day) I hate prejudice (particularly of the racial/ethnic variety) with a passion.

I mostly agree. However, I would not call a large stone, thrown from a high wall by a teenager innocent. It can and does kill. That some soldiers have overreacted is clear and horrible. But it is usually more adults and children with large stones and molotov cocktails and snipers as well that is the situation that gets people - who stupidly include and put their children in harms way that leads to such tragedies.

Also, every Palestinian knows that if they blown themselves up aiming to take women and children with them that they put their own home in peril of demolishion. It is an extreme response to extreme behavior. Of course, the Israeli’s at least allow those in the home to evacuate which is far more compassioniate. I may not agree with the IDF’s tactics but they they are at least understable and far more measured than the random rocket attack or suicide bomber. The goals of the Hamas government is the destruction of Jews and Israel the goal of the Israel is to prevent that from happening. You and I have a much different life in the west than either party. The Israelis live under extreme pressure and danger as do the Palestinians. I abhor Israeli heavy-handedness when it happens. I abhor the barbaric Palestinian culture as well. And it is a barbaric, Islamist culture. We must remember that. The Israelis are never ever ever met with any reciprosity when they act in good faith - such as rmoving their own and giving Gaza to the Palestinians. What has it gotten them?

But I digress. Hatred and violence on both sides must be condemned. But it should be condmned based on facts and with equal compassion.

I am also sorry for jumping the gun on you as well. You and I can both relate to prejudice - the vast majority of my dad’s family died in Auschwitz and he faced extreme antisemtism in both Poland and America. I admit that SM’s comments outraged me and I am sure I was still fuming when I responded to you. So I sincerely apologize.

We should pray for the peace of the Holy Land and the conversion of Jews and Muslims. That is the only way true peace will come.

 

[ralphinal]

I never said either thing. Still I am familiar enough with the difference between antisemitism and legitimate criticism of actions by Jewish individuals or Israel. I was responding to the former. I know the difference very well.

Also, Jesus was and is a Jew, or Hebrew if you prefer. So were all the Apostles and the Blessed Virgin. Those who hate Jews, don’t get to pretend The Holy Family and the Apostles were somehow not Jews. Of course we don’t worship there ethnicity but we should respect it and it should give Jew haters who say they are Christians great pause.

I do not disagree.

Now, is there a difference between Judaism and Modern Isreal?

 

[Melchior]

I do not disagree.

Now, is there a difference between Judaism and Modern Isreal?

Of course. But the line gets blurred far more than critics like to admit. Israel takes far more heat than nations that are completely, objectively evil and truly oppressive. The singular obsession many have with Israel often betrays their anti-semiticism. I don’t believe for a second, as I used, that those who are extreme critics of Israel and Palestinian apologists are operating from an objectively unbiased position.

I have have paid attention to this debate for far to long to believe that anyone obsessed with tiny Israel while remaining passive or ignorant of Rwanda, Sudan, the Macedonian/Greek conflict, the Balkans, where there are newer countries than modern Israel who have far more nefarious deeds towards their own citizens are anything but anti-semites. In fact they ignore the oppression in muslim countries of ethnic and religious minorities and women and yet want so much for another one to be established in Israel. To me that betrays the motives of most, yes most of those who are anti-Israel. It always ends up being about the Jews in general if you talk to these people enough.

 

[ralphinal]

Of course. But the line gets blurred far more than critics like to admit. Israel takes far more heat than nations that are completely, objectively evil and truly oppressive. The singular obsession many have with Israel often betrays their anti-semiticism. I don’t believe for a second, as I used, that those who are extreme critics of Israel and Palestinian apologists are operating from an objectively unbiased position.

I have have paid attention to this debate for far to long to believe that anyone obsessed with tiny Israel while remaining passive or ignorant of Rwanda, Sudan, the Macedonian/Greek conflict, the Balkans, where there are newer countries than modern Israel who have far more nefarious deeds towards their own citizens are anything but anti-semites. In fact they ignore the oppression in muslim countries of ethnic and religious minorities and women and yet want so much for another one to be established in Israel. To me that betrays the motives of most, yes most of those who are anti-Israel. It always ends up being about the Jews in general if you talk to these people enough.

Fair enough.

I am one of the few, I guess, who sees the two as totally separate yet defends Isreal for protecting herself. It is an excellent point that you make about who it is that attacks Isreal while ignoring others.

 

[StMarina303ad]

What a horrible response. But that seems to be the typical anti-semitism from the GO in particular. Really? Anti-Semetic? That’s a terrible accusation! I have close friends who are Jewish - one in particular whose parents fled Nazi Germany. Perhaps, since you are so quick to call names, you would also consider all Israelis Anti-Christians. You are simply uninformed or unconcerned when Jewish children are murdered by Palestinians. I do care about the Israeli children who have died…there have been 4 deaths this year of Israeli children their names are: Neria, Avraham, Yonatan and Segev. I’ve prayed for them. Meanwhile, the slaughter of children is far beyond that from Iraelis killing Palestinian children: 72 innocent children killed this year their names are: Ziad, Maher, Shirin, Amir, Qusay, Tamer, Bilal, Khalil, Nasr, Naim, Ali, Omar, Dardunah, Amjad, Ala, Jacqueline, Iyad, Mahmoud, Hani, Salwa, Salsabeel, Addullah, Abdul-Raouf, Nael, Khaled, Ahmad, Ismail, Abdul-Karim, Ahmad Nimer, Mahmoud, Ahmad Naim, Safah, Mahmoud Naim, Fuad, Abdul-Rahim, Luay Ismail, Luay Jamal, Imad, Mahmoud, Amira, Sharif, Ahmad Nasr, Riad, Yusuf, Kaled, Dia, Abdullah, Muhammad, Bayan, Hussam, Talha, Tariq, Ahmad Aref, Ghassan, Zaki, Ahmad Abdul-Majid, Bilal, Miriam, Masad, Hana, Rudeina, Saleh, Sami, Muntasser, Fahmi, Majid, Hussein, Aya, Hadeel, Muhammad Anwar, Nasr and Tariq. Are you also sad for them, or only for the 4 poor Israeli children? For nearly every Israeli attack on Palestinians you will find an missile attack or suicide bombing that provoked it. Goes to show, you have not done your homework.

It is fine with you that Jews were assaulted for asking someone to remove a flag meant to instigate. Based on the history of Israeli violence, I am sure it didn’t go down that way. It is fine that they called them Nazis and dogs. If it were reversed would you have the same opinion? Doubtful. Calling the people who lost 3/4 of their own to the Nazis, Nazis is digusting. If you actually researched the situation, you’d find many similarities to what was done to the Jews by the Nazis as compared to what the IDF is doing to the Palestinians. Calling people names on either side will not help bring peace or resolution.

Your post would have been fine if it were not so biased and selective and of course it reveals an all to familiar bent of your overly politicized Church that has no sympathy for Jewish suffering as you obviously don’t either. If you knew me, you’d know you are accusing me falsely. At the Last Judgement you will not only know that, you will also know that I truly forgive you.

You are also ignorant of history if you believe that most of the Arab Christians in Israel or the modern Palestinians in general have been there since the fist century. St. James was a Jew as were all of those first Christians in Jerusalem. The Apostles were Jews, that is absolutely correct; however, the majority of converts they brought into the Church in and around Jeruselem were not Jews, they were Arabs. I know of several Arab families that can trace their Christian heritage back to the Bible.

Also interesting is that the Greek Orthodox Patriachate was set up my the them Muslim ruler who removed the Catholic Bishop because he felt the Greeks were more easy to control. Now of course Greeks think they have some stonger claim to Israel than the Jews do. Of course God’s kingdom is not of this world and the Greeks have no business in the Holy Land to begin with. The Greeks were in the Holy Land for centuries before Christ. From Sacred Scripture we know that the true Israelites are those that accepted Jesus and His Teachings and joined His Church. Although I never thought of it before, you are right, Greek Orthodox Christians have more right to be in Jeruselem than non-Christian Jews. Greek Orthodox Christians are more concerned with surviving in the Holy Land as opposed to being wiped off the map as the IDF has planned.

Get some Christian balance on this. You do, after all, worship a Jew. Shame on you for excusing violence and hatred towards Jews who God chose to give us our Lord, His apostles and the Theotokos through. The Jews by blood were in the past because it was through their line of the human race that God the Word chose to take on humanity; however, since Christ came and brought us to the fullness of faith, nationality is of no consequence…what is important now is becoming a Christian, not from what nationality you are. The non-Christian Jews of today are rejecting Christ as were their ancestors…however, there are plenty of non-Christian Jews who are embracing Orthodox Christianity. Here is a book about the story of one person’s conversion: conciliarpress.com/books/apologetics/surprised-by-christ.html

God loves each one of us regardless of our nationality. We are called to love as He loves. When two groups of people are at war, we must love both sides. We also must look at both sides and the history of the conflict in order to decide which side is right or wrong. Anyone who actually looks at this Middle East situation will see who is true aggressor. I love and pray for both sides to come to peace. I hope everyone here will also.

 

[Soutane]

"Anyone who actually looks at this Middle East situation will see who is true aggressor."You forgot to add “in my humble and fallible opinion”.

 

[Melchior]

StMarina303ad:
Please give us the context for the deaths of these children. Did the IDF just go from house to house slaughtering children? Or were these children, per usual, living in areas where mobile rocket units were bineg fired - by those who know full well there will be a response? So do your homework and give us the context from sources from both sides. There is a huge difference between slaughtering children and having those children put in harms way by their parents.

Did you know percentage wise, Palestinian have killed more Israeli women in than Israelis have killed Palestinian women? It’s true.

PLease read this: plancksconstant.org/blog1/2007/12/why_palestinian_children_die.html Look at the pictures as well.

And this: betar.co.uk/articles/betar1059578683.php

If you fire rockets from a civilian area the Israelis respond. It is the Palestinians who have the blood of their children on their hands. As Golda Mier said something like “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us”.

Let’s be clear. You basically said Jews, in America, not Israelis, deserved to be assaulted because Palestinian children have died, mostly as a result of the barbarism of Palestinian culture that slaughters their own children for “honor” and putting them in harms way. So basically, if someone assaults me, because I am a Hebrew, they are justified because of what happens in Israel.

If you knew me, you’d know you are accusing me falsely. At the Last Judgement you will not only know that, you will also know that I truly forgive you.

I judge what you wrote. Not you. It was antisemticism, plane and simple. Jews who are assaulted deserve it. You said as much.

The Apostles were Jews, that is absolutely correct; however, the majority of converts they brought into the Church in and around Jeruselem were not Jews, they were Arabs. I know of several Arab families that can trace their Christian heritage back to the Bible.

That is simply untro. Nearly all Arabs families in the Holy Land were not there at the time of Jesus - in fact a huge percentage came after 1948. It was Jewish province and Arabs were at best a small minority in the NT era. The Samaritans were the largest minority in Israel at that time. The Arabs came centuries later. Primarily with the Turkish invasion, but some earlier nomadic group were already there. The first Christians inside of the Roman privince of Judea were all Jews with a Roman soldier here and there. I know many Palestinians have familial myths to the time of Jesus, but it is just that a myth. That is just a historical fact. I have met many Arabs who say the same thing. One was a direct descendant of David. Which is highly unlikely. You see a popular myth in the muslim world is that the Arabs were the real Jews of the Bible as well. It is all revisionist history. Nearly all Palestinians are simply Arabs from other Arabicv countries or who date back to the Ottoman empire. Very few have roots more than a few hundred years. Incidently, many Jews were there all along.

God loves each one of us regardless of our nationality. We are called to love as He loves. When two groups of people are at war, we must love both sides. We also must look at both sides and the history of the conflict in order to decide which side is right or wrong. Anyone who actually looks at this Middle East situation will see who is true aggressor. I love and pray for both sides to come to peace. I hope everyone here will also.

Yes, they will see that the Muslims are the true aggressor. That is a fact. No one can look at the Balfour declaration and all the circumstances of Israel and Trans-Jordans founding from a neutral historal perspective and conclude Israel has never been provoked or that the Palestinians have ever been an honest peace partner. The elected a terrorist organization as their government for pete’s sake. You cannot simply rely on anecdotes from Arabs. I can give you and Israeli story for everyone of them.

But I agree we should pray for both sides and the conversion of all of them to Christ. But it was your remarks that implied the Jewish students deserved what they got because of suffering half way around the world that set me off.

 

[StMarina303ad]

"Anyone who actually looks at this Middle East situation will see who is true aggressor."You forgot to add “in my humble and fallible opinion”.

No, I trust that someone who truly looks at the history of the conflict and the numbers of those killed and injured on both sides will be able to see clearly who the aggressor is. Someone’s view after doing this research will not be my opinion.

(Although I am very opinionated…never claimed not to be )

 

[StMarina303ad]

But it was your remarks that implied the Jewish students deserved what they got because of suffering half way around the world that set me off.

Your attempt of reading between the lines of my post led you to believe I was implying that Jewish students deserved to have a flag hung at their party, but I don’t write things in between the lines. I am very blunt and say directly what I mean. Sorry that somehow you misinterepted.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Please give us the context for the deaths of these children. So do your homework and give us the context from sources from both sides.

I did give the reference - apparently you did not click on the link - which gave the circumstances of each death. rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html

The 4 Israeli children were killed by gunfire from a disgruntled former employee of the religious school who was a Palestinian.

The 72 Palestinian children were killed by IDF in various ways - primarily it is a toss up between IDF gunfire and IDF missiles. In one case an 11 year old was hit in the chest by tank fire but that child is not the only one killed by tank fire this year. Primarily the children were playing or walking with their parents to work or at home when they were killed by gunfire or missile attacks.

When people are so blind to the truth starring them in the face, it really frustrates me. I will no longer read or post on this thread.

May God bless the little children on both sides. May Israel stop the aggression over the suffering people of Palestine. May each Israeli be converted to the Ancient Christian Faith and may those Palestinians who are not already Christians, also be converted. Because only with Jesus Christ can there be Peace.

 

[Melchior]

I did give the reference - apparently you did not click on the link - which gave the circumstances of each death. rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html

The 4 Israeli children were killed by gunfire from a disgruntled former employee of the religious school who was a Palestinian.

The 72 Palestinian children were killed by IDF in various ways - primarily it is a toss up between IDF gunfire and IDF missiles. In one case an 11 year old was hit in the chest by tank fire but that child is not the only one killed by tank fire this year. Primarily the children were playing or walking with their parents to work or at home when they were killed by gunfire or missile attacks.

When people are so blind to the truth starring them in the face, it really frustrates me. I will no longer read or post on this thread.

May God bless the little children on both sides. May Israel stop the aggression over the suffering people of Palestine. May each Israeli be converted to the Ancient Christian Faith and may those Palestinians who are not already Christians, also be converted. Because only with Jesus Christ can there be Peace.

You did not read my links did you?

31 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian terrorists this year. It is frustrating that you do not understand that the Palestinian deliberately put their children in harms way. I did provide you the proof. Numbers mean nothing without context.

I will look at your link. Please look at mine.

 

[Melchior]

I did give the reference - apparently you did not click on the link - which gave the circumstances of each death. rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html

The 4 Israeli children were killed by gunfire from a disgruntled former employee of the religious school who was a Palestinian.

The 72 Palestinian children were killed by IDF in various ways - primarily it is a toss up between IDF gunfire and IDF missiles. In one case an 11 year old was hit in the chest by tank fire but that child is not the only one killed by tank fire this year. Primarily the children were playing or walking with their parents to work or at home when they were killed by gunfire or missile attacks.

When people are so blind to the truth starring them in the face, it really frustrates me. I will no longer read or post on this thread.

May God bless the little children on both sides. May Israel stop the aggression over the suffering people of Palestine. May each Israeli be converted to the Ancient Christian Faith and may those Palestinians who are not already Christians, also be converted. Because only with Jesus Christ can there be Peace.

YOu will notice most of the children were killed in missile strikes. Which is awful But what you are missing is that there are nearly a daily barrage of missile from Gaza to Israel and the IDF rightly responds to try and destroy the missile launchers. That the animals move through residential areas where there are children is what makes them, not a military simply defending her people in their own land, guilty of the blood of these children. It is heartbreaking they the Palestinians allow this to happen. No missiles from Gaza. No dead children. It is that simple.

 

[Melchior]

Your attempt of reading between the lines of my post led you to believe I was implying that Jewish students deserved to have a flag hung at their party, but I don’t write things in between the lines. I am very blunt and say directly what I mean. Sorry that somehow you misinterepted.

There was no reading between the lines. Your words:

So the Arabs hung a flag and the Israeli’s took that as a sign to go start a fight?

Israeli’s have already killed at least 72 Arab children this year alone, more than 1000 since Sept. 2000.

They didn’t start a fight. They asked them to take the flag down and the Arabs attacked them.

You are the one who blamed the victims and then somehow connected them with the children killed when their elders launched missile attacks into Israel, the IDF responded and the human shields were killed.

 

[Soutane]

No, I trust that someone who truly looks at the history of the conflict and the numbers of those killed and injured on both sides will be able to see clearly who the aggressor is. Someone’s view after doing this research will not be my opinion.

(Although I am very opinionated…never claimed not to be )

In your humble and MOST fallible OPINION.In other words," if you don’t agree with me you’re a moron,OR a dullard OR uninformed.".

 

[Highwayhound]

It puzzles me how a incident at a college in California would conjure up connections to deaths of children in the Middle East. No children were killed at Berkley from either side.

At most colleges a group putting on an event has to obtain the permission to use the college facilities. So, I assume the students had the right to hold their event. The other group of students that dropped open the flag were being provocative. I can see no other reading of the event. If these students merely wanted to fly a flag of their homeland they could have flown it anywhere. Why did they chose to unfurl it where the first group would see it? Provocative indeed.

If an assault were committed then it is a crime. This crime should be denounced.

One final thought, as a Christian, as long as the only provocation was an unfurled flag, I would have ignored the flag and carried on with my event.

God bless

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed.

God bless-

Rachel