Bernie: Pope Francis Is a Socialist

[estesbob]

Exactly. Thanks for making my point.

I am glad we agree.

 

[abucs]

Interesting talk from a woman living in Austria under the socialism of Adolf Hitler.

youtube.com/watch?v=mZYjgicQOJU

 

[Latias]

So you Goebbels may sincerely believe that he is a “socialist” and also the Social Unity Party of East Germany may also believe that their country is “democratic”. Of course, you would likely believe that the socialists in East Germany would be deluded. So why could Goebbels also be deluded?

I guess Nazi Germany would be “far-left” because their economic system do not follow the practices and philosophy of Milton Freeman and the Austrian School.

 

[Darryl1958]

Interesting talk from a woman living in Austria under the socialism of Adolf Hitler.

youtube.com/watch?v=mZYjgicQOJU

I didn’t watch it all, but enough to note that her contentions that good Catholic Austrians voted for the Nazis who promised to deliver on some of the cradle-to-grave socialist programs like equality counter the ‘1 percenters’ who were the only ones benefiting from the status quo. Free radios, centralized control of the the message, equal rights for everybody, including guaranteed equal income from government, with taxes of 70% were all part of the program.
Equality included free childcare for everybody, up to 24 hours a day, with the government raising the kids, free education with total separation of religion from the classroom, free recreation programs, socialized health care,etc. etc. etc.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

I didn’t watch it all, but enough to note that her contentions that good Catholic Austrians voted for the Nazis who promised to deliver on some of the cradle-to-grave socialist programs like equality counter the ‘1 percenters’ who were the only ones benefiting from the status quo. Free radios, centralized control of the the message, equal rights for everybody, including guaranteed equal income from government, with taxes of 70% were all part of the program.
Equality included free childcare for everybody, up to 24 hours a day, with the government raising the kids, free education with total separation of religion from the classroom, free recreation programs, socialized health care,etc. etc. etc.

A lot of Christians supported the Nazis because they were seen as strong opposition to the communists who were gaining popularity, not to mention their emphasis on “family values” and religious and moral values.

 

[Darryl1958]

A lot of Christians supported the Nazis because they were seen as strong opposition to the communists who were gaining popularity, not to mention their emphasis on “family values” and religious and moral values.

Even Jews voted for Hitler for the same reasons. The old austrian lady on the clip empahsized the normalcy of the Nazi selling points.

That is beside the point though.

What the video showed was in which ways it is a very true statement that the Nazi program was socialist, according to normal usage of the word socialism. It was socialist in the same way that what Bernie Sanders is socialist, and in the same way that Bernie Sanders sees Pope Francis as a socialist.

The Nazis in Austria received 98% of the vote by using the same arguments that Bernie Sanders is now using. That does not make Sanders a Nazi, nor the Pope. Obviously, there was more to this totalitarian movement than just socialism.

The only point is that it was truly socialist, in the same way that Bernie Sanders is socialist.

 

[Latias]

What the video showed was in which ways it is a very true statement that the Nazi program was socialist, according to normal usage of the word socialism. It was socialist in the same way that what Bernie Sanders is socialist, and in the same way that Bernie Sanders sees Pope Francis as a socialist.

The Nazis in Austria received 98% of the vote by using the same arguments that Bernie Sanders is now using. That does not make Sanders a Nazi, nor the Pope. Obviously, there was more to this totalitarian movement than just socialism.

The only point is that it was truly socialist, in the same way that Bernie Sanders is socialist.

The “normalcy” of the Nazi platform could also mean an affirmation towards traditional conservative values and opposition towards the communists. That is hardly a far-left platform.

“Normal” in the sense that it is often used in conservative discourse, who also think that Sweden is “socialist”. I also wonder if the world depicted in the Pokemon anime is “socialist” since the Pokemon centers are free for trainers.

The contention that Nazi Germany was socialist could only be justified if one defines socialism as any political economy not conforming the ideas of the Chicago or Austrian school.

Regarding gun control and actual socialists (as Castro was an actual revolutionary), this is a good video to dispel some myths about gun control and socialism. Castro actually armed his population or encouraged them to take up arms. East Germany and Albania require children to learn how to handle guns. Everyone in Albania, under Hoxha, was armed (from 10:20). Also, the far-left group, the Black Panthers, were staunch advocates of gun control.

But the US is actually moving towards National Socialism. The US rejected a UN resolution that would condemn the glorification of Nazism.

 

[Darryl1958]

The “normalcy” of the Nazi platform could also mean an affirmation towards traditional conservative values and opposition towards the communists. That is hardly a far-left platform.

“Normal” in the sense that it is often used in conservative discourse, who also think that Sweden is “socialist”. I also wonder if the world depicted in the Pokemon anime is “socialist” since the Pokemon centers are free for trainers.

The contention that Nazi Germany was socialist could only be justified if one defines socialism as any political economy not conforming the ideas of the Chicago or Austrian school.

Regarding gun control and actual socialists (as Castro was an actual revolutionary), this is a good video to dispel some myths about gun control and socialism. Castro actually armed his population or encouraged them to take up arms. East Germany and Albania require children to learn how to handle guns. Everyone in Albania, under Hoxha, was armed (from 10:20). Also, the far-left group, the Black Panthers, were staunch advocates of gun control.

But the US is actually moving towards National Socialism. The US rejected a UN resolution that would condemn the glorification of Nazism.

The lady in the video talked about a cradle-to-grave welfare state with a large centralized, technocratic State in control being instituted by the Nazis. She talked about 98% of the Austrian voters at the time thinking this was a pretty good idea, along with a rejectioon of the status quo of banks with large interest rates as being seen as the problem.

That is what Bernie Sanders advocates, and that is what people normally understand socialism to be. This is the kind of program that people who generally regard themselves as more left than right advocate as well. If Bernie Sanders believes this is what the Pope wants to, it would at most be an honest mistake on his behalf. For all appearances the message of the Pope is not much different than that.

For sure, communists will reject this normal understanding of socialism for the ideal state of perfect equality that never was, is not now, and never will be.

But as far as socialists and the left in American want, this has already happened, on all sides of the political spectrum, including Nazis.

 

[Latias]

The lady in the video talked about a cradle-to-grave welfare state with a large centralized, technocratic State in control being instituted by the Nazis. She talked about 98% of the Austrian voters at the time thinking this was a pretty good idea, along with a rejectioon of the status quo of banks with large interest rates as being seen as the problem.

That is what Bernie Sanders advocates, and that is what people normally understand socialism to be. This is the kind of program that people who generally regard themselves as more left than right advocate as well. If Bernie Sanders believes this is what the Pope wants to, it would at most be an honest mistake on his behalf. For all appearances the message of the Pope is not much different than that.

For sure, communists will reject this normal understanding of socialism for the ideal state of perfect equality that never was, is not now, and never will be.

But as far as socialists and the left in American want, this has already happened, on all sides of the political spectrum, including Nazis.

No one says that “socialism” is a state of “perfect equality” – that is what “Regular Atheist” constantly belabors in his posts – but a more proper understanding of socialism would mean that there is no private ownership of the means of production. In other words, there would be no capitalists.

The welfare state is not socialist. Otto von Bismarck, who is acknowledged to institute universal health care was a not socialist.

The people who voted for the Nazis (not in the plebiscites in Austria) voted for the Nazis because of the perceived humiliation of the post-WWI geopolitical order, fear of communism, and Hitler’s affirmation of conservative values. Whatever government programs that Hitler introduced was largely pragmatic.

I guess socialism really is a good thing. Little children would prefer to live in a socialist world. They would rather see a socialist world were the services of Pokemon centers are free. Also the police don’t have guns, and the only guns that appeared turned up in the Safari Zone. So would the “normal understanding of socialism” deem the world depicted in the Pokemon anime as “socialist”?

 

[Darryl1958]

There is no magesterium defining Socialist Orthdoxy, and defining socialism heresies.

The way that Sanders uses socialism may not live up to the standards of some of the socialists here, who want even more ‘equality’, or whatever, but it is fully in line with what people in general understand socialism to be. and what Sanders understands socialism to be. Whether or not the Pope is in accord with that kind of system, and whether or not he considers himself a socialist, this is the kind of system that Sanders claims about the Pope can be judged against, and not some arbitrary standard that is rather archaic anyway in terms of common, current usage.

It is academic, and even moot, to try to come up with a defintion of socialism contrary to what he means, since this is all about the way that Sanders uses the word.

The fact is that his version of socialism has already be tried. In very many respects it was the socialism that 98 percent of Austrians voted for in the middle decades of the last century.

 

[abucs]

A lot of Christians supported the Nazis because they were seen as strong opposition to the communists who were gaining popularity, not to mention their emphasis on “family values” and religious and moral values.

I do not know that the Nazi’s were seen by some people as having ‘family values’. Perhaps it was the case at some time. I know they ran ‘baby factories’ which mated suitable young Aryan women to SS officers out of wedlock. Mothers and children were cared for by the state (i/e.they took wealth off others to give to these girls who stayed at state premises). Perhaps this was the family values of the Nazis?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn

I know that the policies of the Nazis were not only anti-Christian, but the policies were to reduce the power of the Christian churches and implement a new type of state ethics.

Not addressed to Regular Atheist but generally speaking,

As i have mentioned before, my idea of socialism is to have the state regulating and controlling large aspects of life and opposing structures not controlled by the state.

This includes economic and social structures.

As was the slogan of the National Fascisto Leader Mussolini - all within the state, nothing against the state, nothing outside the state.

By that definition i have to see the National Socialists as Socialists.

For example, the German state made it mandatory for the young to be part of the Hitler youth and attend weekly rallies and indoctrination on Sunday mornings instead of attending church. This was in Germany and Austria.

There are many other examples where the Nazi state wrestled control away from non state structures such as churches. When the state was strong enough it simply dictated control.

The Nazi socialists banned all protestant churches and created its own state church and doctrine they called ‘positive Christianity’. Out went the crosses, in came the swastikas.

In the south of the country which was Catholic there were attempts to remove pictures of the pope and replace them with pictures of Hitler. By the time of WW2 all Catholic education had been abolished.

Like the soviets this repression and state control ranged from education to trade unions to community publications to community appointments to moving against rival political parties to jailing political dissidents to creating an army of informers to nationalising key industries to confiscating large parts of people’s wealth under the guise of equality.

 

[Latias]

There is no magesterium defining Socialist Orthdoxy, and defining socialism heresies.

The way that Sanders uses socialism may not live up to the standards of some of the socialists here, who want even more ‘equality’, or whatever, but it is fully in line with what people in general understand socialism to be. and what Sanders understands socialism to be. Whether or not the Pope is in accord with that kind of system, and whether or not he considers himself a socialist, this is the kind of system that Sanders claims about the Pope can be judged against, and not some arbitrary standard that is rather archaic anyway in terms of common, current usage.

It is academic, and even moot, to try to come up with a defintion of socialism contrary to what he means, since this is all about the way that Sanders uses the word.

The fact is that his version of socialism has already be tried. In very many respects it was the socialism that 98 percent of Austrians voted for in the middle decades of the last century.

Nazi Germany was “socialist” in the sense that the Pokemon world is “socialist”. It seems like that you are trying to trivialize the word “socialist”.

This article argues that social democracy and the welfare state were not initially instituted by social democrats and other political forces associated with the left, but by conservatives.

Egalitarian reforms, however, have been achieved over the years in Western capitalist societies, despite these obstacles, and this reality would seem to call my argument into question. Yet the number and nature of the reforms have fallen short of the original ambitions of social democracy, and in recent decades, have been abridged, weakened and sometimes cancelled altogether, often by social democratic governments themselves.

The first social insurance schemes were developed in Germany, not by social democrats, but by Prince Otto von Bismarck, a conservative who understood the value of social insurance in pacifying a restive working class. The British Liberal governments of 1906-1914 followed with their own ambitious schemes of pensions and health and unemployment insurance to calm working class stirrings. (2) In the United States, the idea of social security didn’t come from unions or the Democrats but from the Rockefellers, who were searching for ways to avert labour unrest and avoid unionization. Likewise, collective bargaining wasn’t the brainchild of unions, but of corporate leaders who wanted to reduce the violence and uncertainty of labour relations. (3) Social democracy often claims credit for these gains, but it was conservatives who conceded them to protect the tranquil digestion of the profits, interest and rents of the top one percent from the disturbances of the bottom 99 percent.

As i have mentioned before, my idea of socialism is to have the state regulating and controlling large aspects of life and opposing structures not controlled by the state.

Your idea is wrong, and all conclusion deriving from it are wrong.

 

[abucs]

… argues that social democracy and the welfare state were not initially instituted by social democrats and other political forces associated with the left, but by conservatives.

Welfare in the west largely comes from centuries of Christian Church charity. Welfare is not a dirty word. When it is used by socialists to create state control and implement a state morality then it becomes a danger.

Both the Soviet and National socialists did exactly that.

 

[Latias]

Welfare in the west largely comes from centuries of Christian Church charity. Welfare is not a dirty word. When it is used by socialists to create state control and implement a state morality then it becomes a danger.

Both the Soviet and National socialists did exactly that.

Would you consider Otto von Bismarck a “socialist”? Would you consider the Pokemon world “socialist”, especially with its free Pokemon Centers?

 

[Regular_Atheist]

I do not know that the Nazi’s were seen by some people as having ‘family values’. Perhaps it was the case at some time. I know they ran ‘baby factories’ which mated suitable young Aryan women to SS officers out of wedlock. Mothers and children were cared for by the state (i/e.they took wealth off others to give to these girls who stayed at state premises). Perhaps this was the family values of the Nazis?

They rewarded mothers for giving birth to many children, placed emphasis on traditional family roles of the mother and father, etc. There are a lot of Nazi propaganda posters like this, emphasizing the importance of the traditional Aryan family.

I know that the policies of the Nazis were not only anti-Christian, but the policies were to reduce the power of the Christian churches and implement a new type of state ethics.

I don’t mean to argue that they were in anyway good to mainstream Christians, but their pro-Christian and anti-Marxist rhetoric certainly appealed to some Christian voters.

As i have mentioned before, my idea of socialism is to have the state regulating and controlling large aspects of life and opposing structures not controlled by the state.

This is so far removed from the actual, original definition of socialism. You’ve basically just created a strawman definition that you can use against people you disagree with.

“My idea of Nazism is the recognition of private property rights. Therefore, all capitalists are Nazis.”

At any rate, you’re welcome to think that if you really want to. If you do ever find yourself talking to a self-identifying socialist, however, make sure you know what they mean when they use that term. You don’t want to be using this definition when discussing socialism with a Marxist or an anarchist. Even a Sanders supporter/social democrat will not accept your definition, and they tend to be a bit confused.

 

[abucs]

Would you consider Otto von Bismarck a “socialist”? Would you consider the Pokemon world “socialist”, especially with its free Pokemon Centers?

Well as far as i know the Pokeman is an Asian animated cartoon production. Perhaps we should restrict our discussion to the real world?

My knowledge of Bismark is limited to understanding he used the state to restrict and suppress Catholicism but i am not aware of any attempt to use the state to create a new state morality, or of oppressing the population through state control of industry or mandating they must belong to state organisations and the banning of a wide series of non state community structures, nor the argument of taking other people’s wealth under the guise of a state sponsored and defined sense of equality which further created state control over the population.

I think there is a difference between using government to suppress a group of people and using the government to suppress all people in favour of an all encompassing state control of morality, economics and culture.

 

[Latias]

Well as far as i know the Pokeman is an Asian animated cartoon production. Perhaps we should restrict our discussion to the real world?

My knowledge of Bismark is limited to understanding he used the state to restrict and suppress Catholicism but i am not aware of any attempt to use the state to create a new state morality, or of oppressing the population through state control of industry or mandating they must belong to state organisations and the banning of a wide series of non state community structures, nor the argument of taking other people’s wealth under the guise of a state sponsored and defined sense of equality which further created state control over the population.

I think there is a difference between using government to suppress a group of people and using the government to suppress all people in favour of an all encompassing state control of morality, economics and culture.

You avoided Pokemon. You avoided giving a straight answer for Otto von Bismarck.

If he is not a “socialist” because he supposedly didn’t use “government to suppress a group of people and using the government to suppress all people in favour of an all encompassing state control of morality, economics and culture”, then Sweden or Bernie Sanders are not a socialist. The Scandinavian welfare states do not use government “to suppress all people in favor of all encompassing state control”, unless you count “political correctness”, but that could be explained by liberal social mores than overt social control. Actually your own words describes the Estado Novo of Salazar perfectly. Salazar certainly had capitalists in his country, but so did Hitler; Salazar was anti-egalitarian, but Hitler was also; Salazar suppressed leftists, but so did Hitler… To say that they didn’t like each is a non-sequitur as Stalin and Hitler didn’t like each other.

 

[abucs]

You avoided Pokemon. You avoided giving a straight answer for Otto von Bismarck.

Look you are getting emotional and not making sense. Pokemon is a cartoon. If you want to have a serious discussion on whether an Asian cartoon is socialism then you need to find someone else.

I didn’t avoid Pokemon, i asked us to keep to the real world.

I didn’t avoid giving an answer to Otto von Bismark. I stated my knowledge was limited on the subject and i commented regarding my knowledge of his practices and how they relate with socialism.

You seem to be leading with your emotion rather than being factual and honest. When you ask me to seriously discuss whether an Asian cartoon is socialism and then criticise me for avoiding the subject, then i’ve pretty much concluded you haven’t got much to say on the subject but simply running on emotional reactions.

 

[abucs]

You avoided Pokemon. You avoided giving a straight answer for Otto von Bismarck.

If he is not a “socialist” because he supposedly didn’t use “government to suppress a group of people and using the government to suppress all people in favour of an all encompassing state control of morality, economics and culture”, then Sweden or Bernie Sanders are not a socialist. The Scandinavian welfare states do not use government “to suppress all people in favor of all encompassing state control”, unless you count "political correctness

I have made no comment on the socialism or lack thereof of Bernie Sanders or Sweden.

You are reaching to discuss something other than the evidence of Hitler being socialist. I understand why you are wanting to find new subjects to discuss. You should also be aware of why you don’t want to discuss the socialism of Hitler but rather Asian cartoons and other things i have not commented on.

 

[Latias]

Look you are getting emotional and not making sense. Pokemon is a cartoon. If you want to have a serious discussion on whether an Asian cartoon is socialism then you need to find someone else.

I didn’t avoid Pokemon, i asked us to keep to the real world.

I didn’t avoid giving an answer to Otto von Bismark. I stated my knowledge was limited and i commented regarding my knowledge of his practices and where it fits socialism.

I asked about Pokemon for a specific reason: to show that your formulation of “socialism” is extremely broad and that you would consider the world depicted in the anime as “socialist”. And I most certainly do not consider this a “serious discussion”, so whatever levity I introduced by bring up Pokemon Centers is appropriate.

Either Bismarck is a socialist or he is not a socialist. (That last statement is a tautology, regardless of whatever the definition of socialism is).

If he is a socialist, then your definition is very broad and would include many things.

If he is not a “socialist” (because of the exclusionary criteria you delineated), then someone such as António de Oliveira Salazar would be a “socialist” because your criterion, which supposedly excluded Bismarck, would apply to him.

Could you tell me how Salazar didn’t:

(1) use the state to create a new state morality
(2) oppressing the population through state control of industry or mandating they must belong to state organisations and the banning of a wide series of non state community structures

Salazar had a repressive secret service, the PIDE, which limited most forms of political activism. I do not see how that is not indicative of the state control that characterizes “socialism” in your mind.

Now, tell me how the Nordic welfare states do 1 or 2.