Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up

[jediliz]

Oh, please. We’re all a little too quick to throw the word “socialism” around (Sen. Sanders is too, unfortunately).

He’s not advocating nationalizing industries, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, or anything like that.

He is advocating a more progressive tax code, and single-payer national health insurance (not health care), and free or inexpensive higher education at public colleges and universities, and sensible regulation of the financial industry.

All of which are things that are done routinely in every other developed nation in the world, and all things that make eminent sense, things that we desperately need.

It would be more accurate to describe him as a social democrat than a socialist.

And how do you pay for the “free” tuition??? With higher taxes. Those professors won’t work for free.

Progressive tax code is keyword for MORE taxes on those evil rich (and more on the middle class, too)

 

[Inisfallen]

A social democrat is a socialist.

OK, whatever you say.

I think, around here, the word “socialist” is used to mean “anyone to the left, even by one inch, of Ronald Reagan.” I mean, you’d call Richard Nixon a socialist, right? He proposed national health insurance and the negative income tax. And let’s not even get started on Lyndon Johnson, what with Medicare and Medicaid and all.

And Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Made Lenin look like a Republican.

But in the rest of the world, the word has a specific and generally understood meaning. And Bernie Sanders ain’t it.

 

[Inisfallen]

And how do you pay for the “free” tuition??? With higher taxes. Those professors won’t work for free.

Yes.

Progressive tax code is keyword for MORE taxes on those evil rich (and more on the middle class, too)

Yes. Well, actually, it’s not “code.” It’s pretty up front about it.

Look, if in some alternate universe Bernie Sanders got elected and got his program through both houses and signed it into law, my taxes would go up. Possibly substantially. That’s fine. I would consider it money well spent.

My “right” not to be taxed does not trump the rights of my brothers and sisters to health care and education. Or their right not to have their lives and retirements destroyed by the casino capitalists of Wall Street.

 

[jediliz]

You want affordable college? I went to a community college instead of the big university. Smaller classes, less tuition. And no hookup culture or fraternities/sororities.

I don’t want taxes raised because the government is not who is supposed to pay for these things. Jesus told US to care for the poor, not have Caesar (the government) do it.

Bernie would probably make Americans pay for abortion, like Hilary wants us to.

Sorry, but the man is a nut who has no understanding of economics ($15 an hour minimum wage would put a lot of small businesses OUT OF BUSINESS and you do know the cost of living increases…like food, etc?

As for single payer insurance, I don’t trust the government who is deeply in debt to handle health insurance.

 

[holyreyes]

And how do you pay for the “free” tuition??? With higher taxes. Those professors won’t work for free.

This issue is so miniscule… Let me throw some more to make it sounds more socialistic. Free Education, Universal Healthcare, Food and Shelter(basic necessities)for everyone in the country and anyone in the world so that they become the best version of themselves to be able to contribute well. All of these can be easilly done if the wealth of the nation is shifted away from expensive military, incarceration, foreign interests, rich entitlements, tax free for the rich to those basic necessities.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Only Trump supporters are vague on what marginal rates are?

I don’t recall saying that. Just that the one I had to explain it to was.

 

[anon67074017]

OK, whatever you say.

I think, around here, the word “socialist” is used to mean “anyone to the left, even by one inch, of Ronald Reagan.” I mean, you’d call Richard Nixon a socialist, right? He proposed national health insurance and the negative income tax. And let’s not even get started on Lyndon Johnson, what with Medicare and Medicaid and all.

And Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Made Lenin look like a Republican.

But in the rest of the world, the word has a specific and generally understood meaning. And Bernie Sanders ain’t it.

I would never call Richard Nixon a socialist. He was very anti-socialist. Franklin Roosevelt wasn’t even that far-left either.

 

[Sy_Noe]

OK, whatever you say.

I think, around here, the word “socialist” is used to mean “anyone to the left, even by one inch, of Ronald Reagan.” I mean, you’d call Richard Nixon a socialist, right? He proposed national health insurance and the negative income tax. And let’s not even get started on Lyndon Johnson, what with Medicare and Medicaid and all.

And Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Made Lenin look like a Republican.

But in the rest of the world, the word has a specific and generally understood meaning. And Bernie Sanders ain’t it.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yes.

Yes. Well, actually, it’s not “code.” It’s pretty up front about it.

Look, if in some alternate universe Bernie Sanders got elected and got his program through both houses and signed it into law, my taxes would go up. Possibly substantially. That’s fine. I would consider it money well spent.

My “right” not to be taxed does not trump the rights of my brothers and sisters to health care and education. Or their right not to have their lives and retirements destroyed by the casino capitalists of Wall Street.

 

[Adonia]

Bernie Sanders needs to wake up, socialism is a dead end and the proof is Venezuela. The socialists in charge down there continue to get everything they need, while the average person is waiting on line for toilet paper. TOILET PAPER! Yes it’s true, Bernie’s utopian socialist dream ends up like that. Remember, socialism is for the people, not the socialists.

 

[Adonia]

Oh, please. We’re all a little too quick to throw the word “socialism” around (Sen. Sanders is too, unfortunately).

He’s not advocating nationalizing industries, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, or anything like that.

He is advocating a more progressive tax code, and single-payer national health insurance (not health care), and free or inexpensive higher education at public colleges and universities, and sensible regulation of the financial industry.

All of which are things that are done routinely in every other developed nation in the world, and all things that make eminent sense, things that we desperately need.

It would be more accurate to describe him as a social democrat than a socialist.

He’s not advocating nationalizing industries - yet! But that is where it will eventually lead.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I don’t want taxes raised because the government is not who is supposed to pay for these things. Jesus told US to care for the poor, not have Caesar (the government) do it.

Individuals and faith based groups are certainly called to and can certainly do what they can to care for the poor. But the need is so great that I will never for a minute believe that Jesus would turn down a government role. With the needs of the population of the 21st century, and the costs of surgeries and the many other things those in need and the sick need, individuals alone can’t possibly get the job done alone.

Also see Matt 22:21 and Mk 12:17 in regard to “Caesar”.

 

[Adonia]

Well, not exactly. He has advocated raising the top ***marginal ***rate to 90% or thereabouts, which is not the same as taxing the rich at a 90% rate on all their income. Not even close.

Really, he’s just advocating a return to the tax code of the Eisenhower years, which were pretty good years for this country.

Guess that makes Eisenhower a socialist too.

Edit: I see that **Avdima **beat me to it.

Yeah, and in those years our nation had a monopoly on making just about everything and the world was buying. Japan had not yet ramped up it’s post war industrial base and China resurgence was a long time off in the future. We were the top dog in the world - militarily and economically - we didn’t owe anyone anything, while today we are a debtor nation with stagnant wages for the working man. One cannot compare those years with what is happening today.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Individuals and faith based groups are certainly called to and can certainly do what they can to care for the poor. But the need is so great that I will never for a minute believe that Jesus would turn down a government role. With the needs of the population of the 21st century, and the costs of surgeries and the many other things those in need and the sick need, individuals alone can’t possibly get the job done alone.

Also see Matt 22:21 and Mk 12:17 in regard to “Caesar”.

There are so many distortions in the healthcare industry, that I don’t know how anybody could possibly know whether private charity could deal with care for the poor or not. Some distortions are caused by government (e.g., mandatory discounts for Medicaid and Medicare and shifting emphases on reimbursement) some are caused by industry (e.g., “well worker effect”) some by insurers (provider discount agreements) and some by the industry itself (e.g. less than optimal utilization of NPs because of reimbursement differentials, overutilization of “computer diagnosis”, “gold plating”). Some distortions are caused by combinations.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yeah, and in those years our nation had a monopoly on making just about everything and the world was buying. Japan had not yet ramped up it’s post war industrial base and China resurgence was a long time off in the future. We were the top dog in the world - militarily and economically - we didn’t owe anyone anything, while today we are a debtor nation with stagnant wages for the working man. One cannot compare those years with what is happening today.

A person might in some ways. Shortly after the war, the U.S. imported a lot of things marked “Made in Occupied Japan”. Lots of them were toys, fireworks, etc; things that were not terribly well made, were very labor-intensive, and were dirt cheap. I recall seeing a toy car that was made of a Spam can. You could see the labeling on the inside of the car. Quality goods were largely made here, and they were very generously made, but pricey compared to comparable but shoddier goods now.

So one thing that has happened is that we have turned to low labor cost sources for goods of lower quality and worse materials. I’m not sure we have gained a lot.

I recall reading that Sweden is a somewhat difficult place to which to export because of its emphasis on “kvalitet” (quality). Yes, a sweater in Sweden is more expensive, but it’s very well made, and made in Sweden. I’m not sure there is much advantage to the consumer in buying three sweaters from Bangladesh if the one Swedish sweater will outlast them all.

 

[Adonia]

Individuals and faith based groups are certainly called to and can certainly do what they can to care for the poor. But the need is so great that I will never for a minute believe that Jesus would turn down a government role. With the needs of the population of the 21st century, and the costs of surgeries and the many other things those in need and the sick need, individuals alone can’t possibly get the job done alone.

Also see Matt 22:21 and Mk 12:17 in regard to “Caesar”.

Unfortunately, the government role comes with a lot of strings - just ask the Little Sisters of the Poor. I think Jesus would have been totally against a government role, the idea that some bureaucrat has your best interests at heart is ridiculous. Secular governments support secular things - like funding groups such as Planned Parenthood - and Jesus would have been aghast at collaborating with such an evil.

 

[Little_Sheep]

I voted for Bernie. I would again. But I have to say I feel with each passing day he is becoming less relevant. He ran a terrific campaign. But the page has turned. Hillary Clinton received millions more votes and either she or Donald Trump is going to be President. On the issues alone, I would have been voting for Hillary Clinton over Trump regardless of what Bernie or even Elizabeth Warren did. But Sen Warren is making it very clear to Bernie supporters that Hillary Clinton is far better than Trump.

That said, here are reasons why you can’t compare Brexit with the upcoming US election. US voters will be considering a multitude of issues as well as Donald Trump’s character and preparedness for the office he is seeking. Just the other day even the Senate leader from Trump’s own party wouldn’t say if he was qualified.

Also in the US we have the Electoral College and then there is the demographics of the very diverse electorate. According to the CIA World Factbook, the British population was more than 87% white in 2011. Other estimates put the ratio at higher than 90%. Meanwhile, a Pew survey from earlier this year found that the U.S. electorate in 2016 will be the country’s most racially and ethnically diverse ever. More than 30% of eligible voters will come from a racial or ethnic minority group. The white vote is expected to make up 69% of eligible voters, down from 71% in 2012. For Trump, who has alienated large swaths of minority voters with his immigration rhetoric, victory will likely have to come from securing a large portion of a diminishing slice of the electoral pie.

cnn.com/2016/06/25/politics/differences-brexit-donald-trump/

Bernie has not wound down his campaign with power and strength and that actually surprises me, Sy. Maybe he’s just exhausted.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Unfortunately, the government role comes with a lot of strings - just ask the Little Sisters of the Poor. I think Jesus would have been totally against a government role, the idea that some bureaucrat has your best interests at heart is ridiculous. Secular governments support secular things - like funding groups such as Planned Parenthood - and Jesus would have been aghast at collaborating with such an evil.

I understand the Catholic faithful believe differently but I don’t know that for sure at all. What I do know is Jesus cared so much about the sick. So as far as I know, He might not have objected to uniform healthcare for all employed women. Some women do need contraceptives prescribed for medical conditions. And PP provides women healthcare services as well.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I voted for Bernie. I would again. But I have to say I feel with each passing day he is becoming less relevant. He ran a terrific campaign. But the page has turned. Hillary Clinton received millions more votes and either she or Donald Trump is going to be President. On the issues alone, I would have been voting for Hillary Clinton over Trump regardless of what Bernie or even Elizabeth Warren did. But Sen Warren is making it very clear to Bernie supporters that Hillary Clinton is far better than Trump.

That said, here are reasons why you can’t compare Brexit with the upcoming US election. US voters will be considering a multitude of issues as well as Donald Trump’s character and preparedness for the office he is seeking. Just the other day even the Senate leader from Trump’s own party wouldn’t say if he was qualified.

Also in the US we have the Electoral College and then there is the demographics of the very diverse electorate. According to the CIA World Factbook, the British population was more than 87% white in 2011. Other estimates put the ratio at higher than 90%. Meanwhile, a Pew survey from earlier this year found that the U.S. electorate in 2016 will be the country’s most racially and ethnically diverse ever. More than 30% of eligible voters will come from a racial or ethnic minority group. The white vote is expected to make up 69% of eligible voters, down from 71% in 2012. For Trump, who has alienated large swaths of minority voters with his immigration rhetoric, victory will likely have to come from securing a large portion of a diminishing slice of the electoral pie.

cnn.com/2016/06/25/politics/differences-brexit-donald-trump/

Yes, yes. We know that some liberals believe that ethnic minorities will carry the water for them in this vision of demographic destiny even as their party fully embraces the culture of death. Yet in 2014 the GOP did very well even in deep blue states.

Also, some polls show Trump drawing numbers of minorities that would shock some people. Ultimately, they don’t want to live in a 3rd world banana republic either.

 

[SuperLuigi]

=Sy Noe;14009839]Individuals and faith based groups are certainly called to and can certainly do what they can to care for the poor. But the need is so great that I will never for a minute believe that Jesus would turn down a government role. With the needs of the population of the 21st century, and the costs of surgeries and the many other things those in need and the sick need, individuals alone can’t possibly get the job done alone.

Remember, Jesus and his Followers saw things holositically, not just based on initial appearance. Government roles are appealing to people because they are often quick and easy, even if it yields terrible fruits.

Also see Matt 22:21 and Mk 12:17 in regard to “Caesar”.

As has been said before, I believe this means that in the end, “all things belong to God.” It does mean the state gets to soak the rich and hard-working under the guise of “helping” people in order to get their own perks.

To some extent, the operative word is scandal, and there is a passage in the Gospel about John the Baptist confronting the elites on this matter.