Beside the Bible is there anything else to show us god?

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what if i don’t question my existence. I know that i exist–how can me knowing my existence, acknowledging it, prove that there is a supreme being?

I am just a bit fuzzy on this.
It doesn’t prove anything, of itself. The point is that you do not explain yourself - you do not bear the “why” of your existence within you. Why am I here? is a legitimate question.

You can choose to ignore it, if you wish. However, simple thought processes almost lead inevitably to the question “Why?”

I exist…

Hmm… okay… Why do I exist? :hmmm:

That doesn’t matter.

Really? :ehh:
 
It doesn’t prove anything, of itself. The point is that you do not explain yourself - you do not bear the “why” of your existence within you. Why am I here? is a legitimate question.

You can choose to ignore it, if you wish. However, simple thought processes almost lead inevitably to the question “Why?”

I exist…

Hmm… okay… Why do I exist? :hmmm:

That doesn’t matter.

Really? :ehh:
There are alternative reasons for your existance. Like evolution, abiogensis and the universe has always been and will always be. 2nd law of thermo dynamics i belive, eiteher way one of the laws.

if we attribute this question to the sentient bieng that is human we must attribute this question to hte sentient bieng god. If not why now? What is the point of gods existance?

It follows the logic you are arguing we need someone to make us exist? To give us a reason for our existance, then why not god?

This sounds like argument from you know first cause i think it is… just worded differently but the same fallasy applies…
 
There are alternative reasons for your existance. Like evolution, abiogensis and the universe has always been and will always be. 2nd law of thermo dynamics i belive, eiteher way one of the laws.

if we attribute this question to the sentient bieng that is human we must attribute this question to hte sentient bieng god. If not why now? What is the point of gods existance?

It follows the logic you are arguing we need someone to make us exist? To give us a reason for our existance, then why not god?

This sounds like argument from you know first cause i think it is… just worded differently but the same fallasy applies…
I never claimed it was a strict proof, just a pointer. Go back and read Post #37.

The “point” of God’s existence is that the existence of Infinite Intelligence and a Living Ground of Being gives meaning to our existence in ways that a strictly material-based universe could not. In other words, whether God exists or not makes a big difference in the final analysis and we should not be too quick to dismiss it. :hmmm:
 
I ask these question b/c i just was asked the other day to prove the existence of God. And for what ever reason, I just blurted out, well explain to me how you exist.

The guy responded I think therefore I am.

Now I was just trying to get a little feed back to show the existence of God from that line of thinking.

Thanks for your help
 
I ask these question b/c i just was asked the other day to prove the existence of God. And for what ever reason, I just blurted out, well explain to me how you exist.

The guy responded I think therefore I am.
Oh that’s absurd. He answered a “how” question with a “that.” And technically, there’s no “therefore” in proper translations; it’s more “I think, I exist,” as the therefore implies a causality which Descartes did not intend. Your thoughts do not cause you to exist, they are merely definite proof that you exist.
 
I never claimed it was a strict proof, just a pointer. Go back and read Post #37.

The “point” of God’s existence is that the existence of Infinite Intelligence and a Living Ground of Being gives meaning to our existence in ways that a strictly material-based universe could not. In other words, whether God exists or not makes a big difference in the final analysis and we should not be too quick to dismiss it. :hmmm:
hold on why do i need god to give my existance meaning? Hell i don’t want my entire existance to be simply to wroship god.

I’d like to give existance my own meaning, not soemone else to prescribe me meaning…
 
hold on why do i need god to give my existance meaning? Hell i don’t want my entire existance to be simply to wroship god.
Who said anything about your entire existence worshiping God?
I said gives your existence “meaning” in the sense that you might attain more meaning than you would otherwise find on your own.

Which of these is more meaningful: the way things really are, i.e., truth, or the way you think things are? Isn’t the truth about reality more important in the long run than a limited conception of reality? Would you rather base your decisions and actions on the actual truth about reality or upon a limited conception of reality fraught with many potential errors, missing pieces of information and delusions?

In the end, it is nothing more or less than “loving the truth” not my or your conception of it but the way it really is. Worship in this sense is “committing” oneself fully to the truth, beauty and goodness of reality. What better source of meaning could there be than Truth, Goodness and Beauty?
I’d like to give existence my own meaning, not soemone else to prescribe me meaning…
Are you manufacturing and hiding truth, goodness and beauty somewhere and keeping these hidden in a private storehouse?

I hate to be trite about this, but wouldn’t God, if He were all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving be in a better position to prescribe meaning – to tell us what truth, goodness and beauty are all about, so to speak – than we little creatures with limited knowledge possibly can?

At least in theory, wouldn’t it be better to listen to someone who knows everything than to listen to someone with limited knowledge? Isn’t that why we go to experts for advice? Wouldn’t someone with infinite knowledge provide betters answers or recommendations than someone with only some knowledge?
 
Who said anything about your entire existence worshiping God?
I said gives your existence “meaning” in the sense that you might attain more meaning than you would otherwise find on your own.

Which of these is more meaningful: the way things really are, i.e., truth, or the way you think things are? Isn’t the truth about reality more important in the long run than a limited conception of reality? Would you rather base your decisions and actions on the actual truth about reality or upon a limited conception of reality fraught with many potential errors, missing pieces of information and delusions?

In the end, it is nothing more or less than “loving the truth” not my or your conception of it but the way it really is. Worship in this sense is “committing” oneself fully to the truth, beauty and goodness of reality. What better source of meaning could there be than Truth, Goodness and Beauty?
I am finding out meaning on my own. I have come to the conclusion that all relegions are simply myths. Ans as beautiful i find the Egyptian pantheon and as complex I find the Norse patheon, no relegion to date is factually true. They are all simply old myths, ways to explain the world that now we see are simply wrong.

It is a fact that the world is billions of years old, that suns create all heavier elements, that our ancestors were once bacteria. There is evidence (and alot of it) to support these facts.

The truth your talking about is completely personal. You may take jesus christ to be your personal saviour. A muslim person, a hindu person, a bhuddist doesn’t. Beside the bible there is no real edivence to support it. Your taking that as a truth and basing your life around something that might be completely wrong and you are so sure that you are not.
Are you manufacturing and hiding truth, goodness and beauty somewhere and keeping these hidden in a private storehouse?

I hate to be trite about this, but wouldn’t God, if He were all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving be in a better position to prescribe meaning – to tell us what truth, goodness and beauty are all about, so to speak – than we little creatures with limited knowledge possibly can?

At least in theory, wouldn’t it be better to listen to someone who knows everything than to listen to someone with limited knowledge? Isn’t that why we go to experts for advice? Wouldn’t someone with infinite knowledge provide betters answers or recommendations than someone with only some knowledge?
Well obviously according to your own holy book, god is not, in my personal belief anyone who can accept as a practice the geonocide of towns and the raping of the virgins is not all-loving. Because he clearly doesn’t love the women who are getting raped. I think it is absolutely abhorrent any god who proscribes the rule of law for adultry, homosexuality and disobediecy by children to be stoning of death. I mean come on wtf is wrong with this diety…

Plus “god” has never spoken to me. Everyone who speaks about god are men, they use holy books written by men. Stories concieved by men. Every chain in the link is human. There is nothing divine.

God is given these giant ultimate attributes for we have no idea of knowing how these things are true. I have seen nothing to indicate that a higher plane diety is all knowing all powerful and everywhere, let alone that one exists at all. Beside appherently it’s self telling us that it is all these things.

Stargate discusses this concept very well towards the later seasons with the introduction of the Ori… Actually its very similar to the christian god follow me belive in me or die and suffer (burn in hell for all eternity). And if it were true, if his messenger came to reinforce this what choice would I have but to belive in him?

So like in the worlds depicted in stargate we all need to make a choice. Be oppressed but heavenly rewarded or be free and damned…
 
Well obviously according to your own holy book, god is not, in my personal belief anyone who can accept as a practice the geonocide of towns and the raping of the virgins is not all-loving. Because he clearly doesn’t love the women who are getting raped. I think it is absolutely abhorrent any god who proscribes the rule of law for adultry, homosexuality and disobediecy by children to be stoning of death. I mean come on wtf is wrong with this diety…
What makes the “holy book” a holy book is not that it is a record of God’s actions, but a record of the relationship between God and man. Many misinterpretations are made by reading it verbatim as if everything stated in it is intended to be taken literally or “as portraying the work of God.” Perhaps reading “between the lines” and thinking about what God may have intended and how that message was re-interpreted by the humans involved may give you some insights into the differences between human and Divine elements in Scripture.

Perhaps God wants to clearly show the nature of humanity by how it responded to Divine direction.

There is also a much different portrait painted if you read the entire Bible as a “novel” than taking parts out of context. The prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah present God’s point of view much clearer than the Pentateuch. There is a very clear, but underlying message that runs through the Scriptures and into the New Testament that what God “means” is often “re-interpreted” by the humans involved. The Bible does include the historical record of human reinterpretations, it is an historical novel, but the Divine message behind it is clearer when read with the whole story and intent behind it without bringing your own preconceptions to it.

When God says “X,” the humans may do “Y” and “Z.” It does not mean God intended humans to do “Y” and “Z.” But if you read the scriptures with the intent of finding where God commanded “Y” and “Z,” where He messed up, so to speak, the door is open for you to find those faults in God. Reading between the lines you would recognize that God stands in the background shaking his head at the response.
Plus “god” has never spoken to me. Everyone who speaks about god are men, they use holy books written by men. Stories concieved by men. Every chain in the link is human. There is nothing divine.
Does truth ever speak to you? You might even say "everyone who speaks about the truth are men… so therefore truth is merely conceived by men. Every link in the chain is human. There is no truth.
God is given these giant ultimate attributes for we have no idea of knowing how these things are true. I have seen nothing to indicate that a higher plane diety is all knowing all powerful and everywhere, let alone that one exists at all. Beside appherently it’s self telling us that it is all these things.
Perhaps using all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving IS the starting point. Assume that God is all these things, then begin to honestly assess why God would, for example, say adultery is not such a good thing. Perhaps there are reasons for sanctioning adultery that are not clear to an individual human in the throes of heavy passion, but from an unbiased and universal point of view which cares equally for all parties involved, the reasons may become clear.

This is also true of scripture: assume the role of God is actually being played by an all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful Being who infinitely cares for the welfare of humanity as a species, then reread the entire story and see what new lights are shed.

Where things just “don’t seem right” perhaps they aren’t the way you read them. All scripture was written by human beings, but it is a record of how God intervened in history “from the human point of view.” God is revealed, but through human words. What is up to us is to learn Who God is by separating the human responses from the Divine inspiration. This is not always easy – and neither is it as twisted as you portray.

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Does truth ever speak to you? You might even say "everyone who speaks about the truth are men… so therefore truth is merely conceived by men. Every link in the chain is human. There is no truth.
But those people never proclaim something divine. There are facts in my world but truth is relative. I make a distinction btwn something that is a fact and something that is the truth…

I should be more specific, what are you meaning exactly when you say truth?
 
In response to your pther statements. There is a much much simpler explanation, all that is written in all holy books are simply the writings of men who sought to control the lives of people under the guise of a god.

As society has progressed the concept of an angry and vengefull god is bad for PR so we had to go with the whole god is love. Then how do you make your god more powerfull than the godess Isis or Hejll? Make him the infinite points of all atributes. How do you then deal with evil, scape goat it to “freewill” and then scapegoat evil deeds and evil pressure to littererly someone depicted as a goat…

I could re read the bible. Or because its such a horrible littereray text and reading it through once and hearing passeges repeated at mas for 15 years has been enough for me… So I wont

But the fact alone that EVERYTHING in the bible is up for interpratation based upon an idea outside of everything told do you by people…

Your reading the bible on the assumption that god is all knowing all powerful all loving. What you should be doing is determining his attributes based on the edvidence presented in holy texts. Dependednt on which belief system you adhere to.
 
But those people never proclaim something divine. There are facts in my world but truth is relative. I make a distinction btwn something that is a fact and something that is the truth…

I should be more specific, what are you meaning exactly when you say truth?
Truth is the essence of existence – what really is. Facts are “snapshots” of the truth, different views of the truth but these are not the truth itself. In some sense truth is unknowable, except darkly through perception and conception, because when we have a concept of it we have merely taken a snapshot, but have left the reality behind. The snapshot is a representation of the truth, but not the truth itself. We can’t go substituting the snapshot - the idea - for the truth, but have to realize our conceptions are subject to falsification by the mere fact that they are conceptions and not the reality.

Incidentally, I also think having a “concept” of God is a big mistake. If God is infinite Being, any concept we hold of God is akin to an idol. Best to divest ourselves of all concepts of God and let God “show” Himself to us. If God is Living Being, concepts won’t capture what He is.

Truth is being – it is what is. We find the truth by participating in Being, not by thinking about Being. Jesus didn’t claim to “know” the truth, but He claimed to be one with it – I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. We find the truth by due diligence - honestly, sincerely and unfailingly searching for it and always questioning what we think. Our thoughts may be subject to all kinds of misconceptions, prejudices and tainted perspectives, but always searching will lead you “closer” to it.

As to your comments about God, an example out of Exodus might lend a different light to the God of the Old Testament:

When the Israelites saw that Moses was taking a long time on Mt. Sinai, they built the golden effigy. God “expressed” anger and said, “…my wrath shall blaze out against them and devour them…”

Moses pleaded with God and He relented. One reading of this is that God “changed” his mind because Moses talked him into doing so. God comes across as the temperamental tyrant and Moses as the calm, caring human.

There are different interpretations possible. Given God’s respect for human free will and that He has relinquished His control over human actions, perhaps what God was doing was putting Moses into the position of “having to stand up for his own people,” bringing Moses to a new dimension of his love for his people, bringing about a growth in Moses. God “acted” in a certain way to “form” Moses into the committed leader he needed to be to continue the journey. You can’t form a person by merely telling him how to act, arranging circumstances is much more effective. You don’t develop virtues like courage and perseverance by reading about them and talking about them – handling life situations that demand those virtues is the only way.

Understanding this story from the point of view of what God was trying to bring about by his “action” means that Moses’ “response” to the situation is the important element here, not God’s anger. By reading this as “what a tyrant God is” one would be missing the real meaning behind it.

That is why I think the Bible has to be read as a very long novel with characters that “act” in certain ways, sometimes to bring about ends that are not clear if taken out of context. Sometimes the plot gets twisted and it is not clear why the protagonist acts in such seemingly wicked ways. Perhaps He is “acting” in the sense of playing a part to bring about a different end than we can understand. Don’t take the “part He is playing” seriously, there may be a different motive behind it.

If human existence is the means that God is using to form humanity to be ready for “eternal” existence – a whole new kind of being – then he has to work with our self-determination and all that implies in order to form us or train us to be ready to assume that form of life.

Merely appearing and “telling” us what to do may not bring about the depth of formation that is required. Often it is better to form us “without” our knowledge. He may have to “act” in a certain ways – hidden ways – even by manipulating circumstances, that humans may or may not understand but that might bring about an important change in humanity. His real nature may not be accurately or adequately depicted but perhaps there is a reason for that, too.

In retrospect, how God treated human beings 3000 years ago seems archaic, but He may have been dealing with quite a different form of humanity. Perhaps, too, He may have had to deal harshly because something very precious growing in the heart of humanity needed to be nurtured and not lost. How can we know?

I think having an unfailing desire to know the truth is the first important step on the journey.
 
Your reading the bible on the assumption that god is all knowing all powerful all loving. What you should be doing is determining his attributes based on the edvidence presented in holy texts. Dependednt on which belief system you adhere to.
You are always going to be influenced by your belief systems. The point I am making is to consciously be aware of how your belief systems impact your understanding. If you are just looking to console and reassure your belief system, truth will be lost to you. If you are always questioning and looking for new insight, and willing to honestly tear apart false beliefs, you have a chance of finding truth.

As I said, truth IS what IS. You can be content with your version of it, or truly seek what IS.

That is a choice you make. It could also mean the difference between finding reality or being stuck in illusion.
 
You are always going to be influenced by your belief systems. The point I am making is to consciously be aware of how your belief systems impact your understanding. If you are just looking to console and reassure your belief system, truth will be lost to you. If you are always questioning and looking for new insight, and willing to honestly tear apart false beliefs, you have a chance of finding truth.

As I said, truth IS what IS. You can be content with your version of it, or truly seek what IS.

That is a choice you make. It could also mean the difference between finding reality or being stuck in illusion.
Yea exactly. I totaly agree with you. So then how are you still a catholic?

Because i did just that, I was catholic and then i reached what many would call the age of reason. And to me a world with a judeo - christian god doesn’t make sense AT ALL… And the whole christian dogma and mythology within its self is wierd, contradictory and illogical…

I concede that there may be a higher bieng out there but when i look back at the history of where these ideas came from. Rather than it stemming from some real indicator of a higher bieng. It stems from the unknown and mans desire to explain the world around him.

Douglas Adams gave a great few lines about this, done in the brilliant witty style of douglas adams. I’ll try and find it. Now to look at your giant response…
 
Attempted conversions of my self has failed for the sole reason that i do not believe in the bible and do not put faith in it being true. Beside the bible is there anything that would indicate to us the existence of God, as in the single god that christianity worships and loves…
The heavens declare the glory of God.
And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Psalm 19:1

***For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that [you] are without excuse.
***Romans 1:20

The fool says in his heart, "there is no God."
Psalm 14:1

Faith and reason can exist side by side.

Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves.
Pope JPII in Fides et Ratio
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

Read: The Evidential Power of Beauty by Fr. Thomas Dubay.
ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=369&SKU=EPB-P&ReturnURL=search.aspx%3f%3fSID%3d1%26SearchCriteria%3devidential+power+of+beauty
 
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