Besorah of yahusha

[Khalid]

…And even in the OT no claim can be made to the “original” Hebrew, unless it’s backed up by the Dead Sea Scrolls (with qualification, as many of the Dead Sea Scrolls are late). The most ancient Old Testament is the holy, preserved Septuagint in Greek (which also has the full canon of inspired scripture, unlike the Masoretic text, as well as preserved Messianic passages long expunged from the “original” Hebrew of a millennium later), finished around 100 BC at the latest: the “original Hebrew” used for the translations of modern Bibles is from the late AD 900s.

The oldest NT we have is in Greek, and we know, by historical studies and the received traditions of the Church from the earliest time that the NT was written in Greek, with the exception of Matthew’s Gospel.

P.S. I think Ishtar was Babylonian.

 

[andrewstx]

…And even in the OT no claim can be made to the “original” Hebrew, unless it’s backed up by the Dead Sea Scrolls (with qualification, as many of the Dead Sea Scrolls are late). The most ancient Old Testament is the holy, preserved Septuagint in Greek (which also has the full canon of inspired scripture, unlike the Masoretic text, as well as preserved Messianic passages long expunged from the “original” Hebrew of a millennium later), finished around 100 BC at the latest: the “original Hebrew” used for the translations of modern Bibles is from the late AD 900s.

The oldest NT we have is in Greek, and we know, by historical studies and the received traditions of the Church from the earliest time that the NT was written in Greek, with the exception of Matthew’s Gospel.

P.S. I think Ishtar was Babylonian.

I stand correctted on Ishtar, but whatever nationality she was she has nothing to do with the Feast of the Ressurection.

 

[Khalid]

I was agreeing with you, and trying to pad out your argument a bit in case she keeps going on about this Judaizing cult.

 

[MorningSong51]

The perspective that they repeatedly give is that the church changed to sabbath to impose its power over Gods basically. I know that is not true, getting these people to see a different view is massively difficult! Here is more discussion from one of her friends after an anti-Catholic post regarding the "sun day sabbath".

Again, the rules for Shabbat is for the Jewish people, is she Jewish? and also, there are laws that are for the Noahides (B’nei Noah–the Children of Noah) - the Jewish people are commanded to keep the Sabbath; Noahides are not. The Torah makes Sabbath observance obligatory for Jews. When this woman keeps the Shabbat, does she realize this? The Catholic church did not change any regulations to this…as a matter of fact, they are to break the Shabbat because of the fact they are non Jewish. If she (the person you’re speaking with) is a member of a particular Messianic group, have her check with their Rabbi on this. If she has joined and is a member of the community - and has (according to their movement) full acceptance as being apart of their Jewish community and was given the o.k to do this - then by all means, she should enjoy participating and fulfilling this regulation. Again, this law was for the Jewish people to follow…Noahides, a non Jew, is not even suppose to follow that regulation but are obligated to follow only seven commands of the law. sheesh.:yawn:

It’s a life based on, or starting from, the so-called Sheva Mitzvot B’nei Noah, the Seven Commandments for the Children of Noah. Derived from the Book of Genesis and elucidated in the Talmud and other traditional texts, the laws are, according to Jewish tradition, incumbent on all humanity. Though sometimes phrased and ordered differently, the Sheva Mitzvot B’nei Noah are: (1) Do not worship false gods; (2) Do not murder; (3) Do not steal; (4) Do not be sexually immoral; (5) Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal; (6) Do not blaspheme; (7) Set up a court system.

Rabbi Schwartz of the nascent Sanhedrin has already written concerning Tefillin and mezuzah here:
en.wikinoah.org/index.php/Yoel_Schwartz

 

[MorningSong51]

I was agreeing with you, and trying to pad out your argument a bit in case she keeps going on about this Judaizing cult.

No…not going on with this Judaizing cult, just explaining to Coolhandlukexx that I ran into a similar discussion and advised him, as he asked, to leave the group. Who can take in all that bashing in about Catholics? Its got to be draining.

Khalid, this group’s manager either just turned Messianic from being in a Christian congregation, I really don’t know the background but she sounds like the same woman Coolhandlukexx ran into - her husband is Greek Orthodox and she is Russian (Jewish) Orthodox - this group was a long time ago, but it was a so called Orthodox Messianic forum. Every Christmas when her husband would set up the Christmas tree, she would get upset at him and then tell him to take it down. Some in the group believe that Christ was “not” born on Dec 25th - some have gone as far as to say either at the time of Shavout or Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur. Not all say this…but again, I not disagreeing with anything you’ve said so far - just giving out information on how some surmise their arguments.

 

[MorningSong51]

Coolhandlukexx;8527955]the perspective that they repeatedly give is that the church changed to sabbath to impose its power over gods basically. I know that is not true, getting these people to see a different view is massively difficult! here is more discussion from one of her friends after an anti-catholic post regarding the "sun day sabbath".

again, the rules for Shabbat is for the Jewish people, is she Jewish? And also, there are laws that are for the noahides (b’nei noah–the children of noah) - the Jewish people are commanded to keep the sabbath; noahides are not. The torah makes sabbath observance obligatory for Jews. When this woman keeps the Shabbat, does she realize this? The catholic church did not change any regulations to this…as a matter of fact, they are to break the Shabbat because of the fact they are non Jewish. If she (the person you’re speaking with) is a member of a particular messianic group, have her check with their rabbi on this. If she has joined and is a member of the community - and has (according to their movement) full acceptance as being apart of their Jewish community and was given the o.k to do this - then by all means, she should enjoy participating and fulfilling this regulation. Again, this law was for the Jewish people to follow…noahides, a non Jew, is not even suppose to follow that regulation but are obligated to follow only seven commands of the law. Sheesh.:yawn:

It’s a life based on, or starting from, the so-called sheva mitzvot b’nei noah, the seven commandments for the children of noah. Derived from the book of genesis and elucidated in the talmud and other traditional texts, the laws are, according to jewish tradition, incumbent on all humanity. Though sometimes phrased and ordered differently, the sheva mitzvot b’nei noah are: (1) do not worship false gods; (2) do not murder; (3) do not steal; (4) do not be sexually immoral; (5) do not eat a limb removed from a live animal; (6) do not blaspheme; (7) set up a court system.

 

[Khalid]

Even I acknowledge the Noahide Covenant and the Seven Laws of Noah, as I am descended from Noah through Shem (without getting in to a theological discussion of the binding nature or lack thereof of the Seven Laws for all of humanity).

I consider myself a Noahide (no, I don’t accept dual-covenant heresy). I know that some Jews would argue that I can’t be a “Ben Noah” in that sense because the first Noahide law - to have no gods beyond YHWH - they view as incompatible with the most Holy Triunity of the true God - YHWH - as he has revealed himself through his Word. However, I am still a monotheist (with which every non-Islamic scholar of religion, etc. would agree).

The Greek Orthodox, in following the Apostolic Decree (prohibits strangled animals or blood for food) are essentially Noahides as well even if they don’t know what a Noahide is.

 

[MorningSong51]

Even I acknowledge the Noahide Covenant and the Seven Laws of Noah, as I am descended from Noah through Shem (without getting in to a theological discussion of the binding nature or lack thereof of the Seven Laws for all of humanity).

I consider myself a Noahide (no, I don’t accept dual-covenant heresy). I know that some Jews would argue that I can’t be a “Ben Noah” in that sense because the first Noahide law - to have no gods beyond YHWH - they view as incompatible with the most Holy Trinity of the true God - YHWH - as he has revealed himself through his Word. However, I am still a monotheist (with which every non-Islamic scholar of religion, etc. would agree).

The Greek Orthodox, in following the Apostolic Decree (prohibits strangled animals or blood for food) are essentially Noahides as well even if they don’t know what a Noahide is.

Right - I agree with you totally, as you’ve been hitting the target on everything. Especially being an Ex-Muslim Melkite Catholic, that I believe to be Eastern Orthodox Catholic, so you should know more about this than anyone. Right now I reading a book on “The Law before the Law” - by Steven Wilf, quoting pg 67 & 68, "Law giving meant the affirmation of Jacob/Israel’s right to the birthright for God says*** Israel is My son, My first born***. Just as the younger son, Jacob, displaces the older son, Esau, so the more ancient code, Noahide law, was replaced by Jewish law.

(that’s why I look at the The Parable of the Two Sons in Matthew 21, differently)

But it was not a simple displacement. As in traditional Jewish primogeniture, the Jews receive a double portion at Sinai - both the original Noahide code and the Sinai code. What was an exercise of exegetical imagination became the legal rule in halacha: any normative commandment which was given to Noahides and not repeated at Sinai is obligatory upon Israel alone, and not upon Noahides. It is implied that the Jews were heirs to both sets of law. However, those commandments which were given to Noahides and repeated at Sinai are intended for both Noahides as well as for Israel. The Noahide laws are a classic case of the legal doctrine of preemption - where a code still exists, but another, more robust set of laws take precedence over it.

***Supplanting law, of course, is a dangerous business. In ancient Athens, for example, a brief (graphe) had to be brought by a person seeking to replace an old law with a new one…"

---

This last paragraph is something that you made a comment about - at the very beginning, was it? So, I had to remember the same comment from this book …

According to Paul, law was “our custodian [paidagogus] until Christ came”. Paul uses the Greek word paidagogus which means a household retainer charged with the responsibility of the moral education of a child. Paul would draw upon the idea of a moral law - embodied in both the Noahide commandments and the revelation at Sinai - which may serve as the tutor to all humankind until they might be justified by faith. Christianity, however, would ultimately render both codes, Noahide and rabbinic, irrelevant as the gospel would create a universal norm, a “law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness”

So imperative were the Apostle Paul’s writings. I don’t believe all Messianic’s reject his writings but the one’s who do - will find themselves with a huge hole for doing so. How very very sad for those who don’t heed his words…

 

[Coolhandlukexx]

Haha! She is definitly not Jewish. An interesting post came up with one of her friends explaining their “understanding” of the Godhead. Yahweh(Father), Yeshua(Son), Holy spirit(No alternate name), and Torah!! It almost sounded like the Trinity till they added Torah.

Now that Halloween is over her rants on paganism in the church will subside till Christmas I imagine. She is on peace signs now. Throwing all of her childrens clothes away that have peace signs on them,or any household items that may have it.

She put up a particularly nasty link about the pope here: sott.net/articles/show/220257-Vatican-Christmas-Shocker-Pope-says-child-rape-isn-t-that-bad-was-normal-back-in-his-day if any one cares to read it.

“No…not going on with this Judaizing cult, just explaining to Coolhandlukexx that I ran into a similar discussion and advised him, as he asked, to leave the group. Who can take in all that bashing in about Catholics? Its got to be draining.” Morningsong it is draining, but I do enjoy trying to defend our faith.

Kahlid,my friend, please explain this point further: “I consider myself a Noahide (no, I don’t accept dual-covenant heresy).” I don’t understand this and have never heard about this.

 

[Khalid]

The Fundamentalist Protestant Trinity:

1. 
   *]A Personal Relationship with Jesus
   *]The Gifts of the Holy Ghost,
   *]The Inerrant, Plenary Inspired King James Bible!
   
   The below description contains hyperlinks to relevant definitions and further reading.
   
   Dual-covenant theology is a very liberal Protestant view that says that the Mosaic covenant is eternal, based on some OT passages (ignoring Paul’s writings about the glory of Moses fading), and that Jews can be saved by adhering to the 613 mitzvot of Judaism, without needing Christ, and that Christians can be saved through Jesus. The view is: Jews are saved through obedience to the law (with or without Temple sacrifice, which is never mentioned, which seems to be proof that they have a weak grasp of Jewish theology and an even weaker grasp of Christianity), and those who are not Jews can be saved either through Jesus, or adherence to the seven laws of Noah - no one actually needs Jesus’ sacrifice to be saved, nor even belief in him. It’s a nice postmodern “all roads lead to truth” kind of theology, or maybe it would be better described as a deology, as it’s no more about God than is Buddhism.
   
   I think it seems obvious why it’s heresy, to put it mildly, or apostasy - it’s Christianity without Christ, which isn’t Christianity at all, it’s… nothing.
   
   That is, the Judaic/Mosaic covenant is eternally valid and equal to the New Covenant, which never superseded the Mosaic, and there is no need to convert from one to the other because both are chosen people of God, and the Jews are still the true Israel, the chosen people of God, and the Church is grafted on to the Jews, and not the other way around. This often coincides with a strong Christian Zionism and Protestant Dispensationalism/Milleniallism in the religious wing of the liberals, and with “Christian atheism” or Barthian Christian existentialism in the liberal-liberal wing of the liberals.

 

[MorningSong51]

Haha! She is definitely not Jewish. An interesting post came up with one of her friends explaining their “understanding” of the Godhead. Yahweh(Father), Yeshua(Son), Holy spirit(No alternate name), and Torah!! It almost sounded like the Trinity till they added Torah.

“ruach hakodesh” is used in the Hebrew Bible, although the noun ruach (רוח, literally “breath” or “wind”) in various combinations is used often, and the adjective kodesh (“holy”) is also used often. The noun ruach, much like the English word breath, can mean either wind or some invisible moving force. The ruach hakodesh, is the Divine Spirit, God’s Spirit -

Ask if she can summarize the difference between these three and how these terms intertwine with each other:

• Nevua
• Ruach Hakodesh
• Bas Kol

Deuteronomy 30:12 - "It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

Also, read - “16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”

The Apostle Paul was very keen to the law - Torah

Now that Halloween is over her rants on paganism in the church will subside till Christmas I imagine. She is on peace signs now. Throwing all of her childrens clothes away that have peace signs on them,or any household items that may have it.