Best and worst hymns?

[babochka]

Do you really think St Rose brought her guitar and played it during Mass? Ditto for St Cecilia. Playing the geetar outside Mass is a different kettle of fish than during Mass, same for your Biblical drumming. Do you imagine that Our Lord was rocking out during the temple liturgies? Where do you get your ideas?

I think that St. Rose would have gladly brought her guitar and played it during Mass, if that had been an option at the time. While St. Cecilia might have played the organ, she didn’t play during Mass, since it was a secular instrument at the time and wasn’t allowed to be used during the Mass for nearly another thousand years and was extremely controversial when it was first introduced in worship. Why? Because it was associated with the theater and other inappropriate activities.

I think both of these saints would have given worship to God with whatever instruments were appropriate for their time and culture. The instruments themselves are simply tools.

Do you really read the writings of the saints and somehow get that they want to modernize the Mass? Please give an example, I would love to see it. I read the opposite in some visionary writings, that Our Lord is not pleased with the noise at Mass.

Of course, private revelations are not binding on any of us, but it would be interesting to have to reference such writings directly so that others can see them in context.

And define noise at Mass? Coming from an Eastern Catholic background, I’m not used to silence during the Divine Liturgy and find it a bit distracting. If we have any silence, we’re glancing at the cantor to figure out what’s gone wrong. Would you define constant chant and song as “noise” that is displeasing to God? We follow the ancient tradition of the Church and allow only acapella singing during the Divine Liturgy.

Personally, I don’t really care for the organ. I find it loud and overbearing. I’d much prefer a piano or guitar for accompaniment.

I don’t think the Lord is displeased with our small, human attempts to worship him. I think the Lord is pleased with the human heart, full of love, offering back the gifts of music and song that he has given us. I am a member of a traditional church and I love our traditions. I would be aghast if somebody brought a guitar into “my” Divine Liturgy. If I go to Mass, I avoid those with electric guitars and drum sets, though I don’t mind occasional use of tambourines. But that is just my personal taste. If the lyrics are appropriate for Catholic worship and the music doesn’t take over, if people don’t turn the Mass into little more than a rock concert and entirely overshadow the Eucharist, I’m not sure how a style of music that I don’t prefer could be displeasing to God.

Here are some bongo drums for your listening pleasure. I love this video because it shows the legitimate cultural diversity of our beautiful, universal Church. Do you believe this very traditional style of giving worship to God is offensive to him?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1840945759261811

 

[rondirect]

Why do you consider How Great Thou Art to be inappropriate at Mass?

Why ask? Why is the poster making divisions among Christians over hymns? Why do we need to categorize hymns as Protestant or Catholic? Oh, I forgot, it might be pronoun error…really?

Amazing Grace and Great Thou Art are Protestant anthems. So inappropriate at Mass IMHO.

The Gloria as interpreted by Marty Haugen due to the refrain, changes in tempo, and non-compliance with the GIRM.

Let There Be Peace On Earth due to the internal conflicts involving inclusive language. There have been at least four different renderings since it was first published in the late 1960s. I predict another re-work of the ‘offending’ verse to “With God our Creator, creatures all are we, let us scamper together…”

Rain Down –This has pronoun trouble. Perhaps the most time “God” appears in a tune.

Another perspective on Amazing Grace from a Catholic web site:

“Michael Voris did a video about the song Amazing Grace, claiming that it is “anti-Catholic”. Is this indeed the case?
I think it is an interesting presentation, but I believe that Voris’ negative conclusion about Amazing Grace as an “anti-Catholic” song is absurd: much ado about nothing (in line with the general criticism of CatholicCulture.org above). Catholics believe in Grace Alone, just as Protestants do. It is presentations like this one that divide Catholics and Protestants unnecessarily, and give the latter the impression that we frown on grace or put works on the same plane with it. But the Church teaches Grace Alone and condemns works-salvation, or Pelagianism, so I don’t see this as a contradiction to our theology at all. Grace is amazing!”

How is Haugen’s Gloria in non-compliance with the GIRM?
“How Great Thou Art” - don’t sing that verse. Actually, I never saw it before.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Loud-living-dogma:

Do you really think St Rose brought her guitar and played it during Mass? Ditto for St Cecilia. Playing the geetar outside Mass is a different kettle of fish than during Mass, same for your Biblical drumming. Do you imagine that Our Lord was rocking out during the temple liturgies? Where do you get your ideas? Do you really read the writings of the saints and somehow get that they want to modernize the Mass? Please give an example, I would love to see it. I read the opposite in some visionary writings, that Our Lord is not pleased with the noise at Mass.

We go to Mass to praise God as a community. You think that these instruments can only be used outside of Mass to praise God, I think your are way off base. So, Our Lord is not pleased with the “noise” at Mass? I think that is so ridiculous to say. I’ve heard some lousy attempts at organ playing at Mass, but I guess because it’s an organ, God is still pleased. IMO, praising God is always pleasing to God regardless of what instruments are used in or outside of Mass. If you heard our Spanish community music groups play at Mass, you would need medical attention. As far as the saints depicted playing instruments, yes, I could see them playing them at Mass and why not?

And now “Visionary Readings?” Really? How do you know the validity of these? Let me guess: if they are visions of your way of thinking, they are valid. If not, they are mystics instead.

Do you not understand Psalm 150 that I quoted? Oh, dumb me, but not at Mass! God forbid that we praise God in such a disrespectful manner!

Me and Pope Pius X are on the same page, man. (add beatnik-style bongo riff)

From “Tra le Sollecitudini (1903)” :

The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church…"

In 1958 - -
“Some musical instruments, such as the classic organ, are naturally appropriate for sacred music; others, such as string instruments which are played with a bow, are easily adapted to liturgical use. But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use.”

But now, my friends (add bongo riff) - - we can have it all! Please please tell me Ron - - when are you going to add the Beyonce-style singing and dancing? Because it’s fierce! And it speaks to the young people! Not this folk stuff - - that’s from the 1970s! How about a little Nikki Minaj? Because I’m sure there’s some drums in there!

 

[deMontfort]

For the record, despite what some might imply, there’s more to Catholic music than just Gregorian Chant:

Matt Maher is Catholic btw…

 

[babochka]

Me and Pope Pius X are on the same page, man. (add beatnik-style bongo riff)

Pope Pius X?? You modernist!

I stand with St. John Chrystostom:

David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless
strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a
different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the
> cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you
like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full
harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has
submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then
will you create a spiritual melody.

Or Erasmus:

We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a
confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or
Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human
voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears
tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who
waste all their time learning these whining tones.

Or perhaps you would listen to Pope Gregory the Great, saint, doctor of the Church, and the person responsible for bringing us Gregorian Chant? He also forbade instrumental music in Church.

 

[Dlee]

Why do you consider How Great Thou Art to be inappropriate at Mass?

I’m a rather new Catholic and wanted to learn, so I asked. I truly want to know what makes a song appropriate for Mass or inappropriate. The protestant hymns I grew up singing are very important to me. I understand where the theology of the song is not Catholic in teaching, but other than that - what?

 

[Dlee]

“How Great Thou Art” - don’t sing that verse. Actually, I never saw it before.

Me again - which verse are you referring to? Thanks.

 

[JanetF]

Amazing Grace and Great Thou Art are Protestant anthems. So inappropriate at Mass IMHO.

Wondering this myself?

 

[rose321]

On a light note, I was just wondering. What are some of the best and/or worst hymns/songs that you have ever heard at Mass?

Respectfully one of my most favorite hymns/songs sung during Mass is >>>>>Ave Maria>>>>> >>>My Mother was a professional solo singer at Church and for weddings, funerals etc…

Our Mother gave birth to 10 children and our dear Mother sang >>Ave Maria >>at each one of our weddings.

When our Mother sang >> >>Ave Maria>> >>the whole church went silent >>>one could feel the Love, Peace within all there>>>>>

After she finish singing>>> Ave Maria>>>>the Priest on the Altar serving, even had tears in his eyes,>>as the Priest stood there on the altar>>>>>>looking up at our Mother, after she finished singing >>Ave Maria, the Priest would say>> >>>>Awe the most beautiful sweet blessing to hear, >>he would then>>(named our mother), when you sing for us>>

Ave Marie !

Another hymn >>>I truly loved to hear which also deeply moved me >>>> hearing this hymn at Mass, which was >>>>>>>>>>>All that I am, all that I be, all that I ever Am>> I offer now to thee. >>

Just sharing and may our Our Dear Sweet Beautiful Mother RIP in his loving arms !!

And how our Mother deeply Loved our>>> Blessed Mother Mary, she said her rosary faithfully every night. continued to do so, even in her last few days.

Peace

 

[goodcatholic]

worst hymns? let me think…some of those folk guitar strumming like 60’s flower children hymns
I’m a trad. when it comes to music. One organ, one singer. It’s all about reverence and respect. Something I lack usually.

 

[rondirect]

Please please tell me Ron - - when are you going to add the Beyonce-style singing and dancing?

Actually this weekend at the 9 am Mass. Oh, and as a special treat, we added flying angels from the rafters! But, the organ will be used to complete the “band.” Can’t wait. Need the address?

If we followed your way, there would be no more youth groups and youth rallies with the Pope. There would me more and more churches closing. There would be more and more room for people to find a seat in church.

Why do I have to repeat this: we are never disrespectful in any way. All my choral groups include people with great faith and love to sing praises to God. The songs you hate are played and sung with reverence and not like in a concert hall. Please get off that thinking. We all are reverent at all times and do not overplay the assembly as if in a concert. Is it better to say that we don’t have a “band,” but an small “orchestra?” Why do you repeatedly quote from 100 years ago? I guess I better take the bells away from the altar server this weekend!

Almost forgot: doing 10,000 Reasons this weekend as well. When done with reverence and prayerfully, with just the right blend of voices and orchestration, it is a beautiful song.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Loud-living-dogma:

Please please tell me Ron - - when are you going to add the Beyonce-style singing and dancing?

Actually this weekend at the 9 am Mass. Oh, and as a special treat, we added flying angels from the rafters! But, the organ will be used to complete the “band.” Can’t wait. Need the address?

If we followed your way, there would be no more youth groups and youth rallies with the Pope. There would me more and more churches closing. There would be more and more room for people to find a seat in church.

Why do I have to repeat this: we are never disrespectful in any way. All my choral groups include people with great faith and love to sing praises to God. The songs you hate are played and sung with reverence and not like in a concert hall. Please get off that thinking. We all are reverent at all times and do not overplay the assembly as if in a concert. Is it better to say that we don’t have a “band,” but an small “orchestra?” Why do you repeatedly quote from 100 years ago? I guess I better take the bells away from the altar server this weekend!

Almost forgot: doing 10,000 Reasons this weekend as well. When done with reverence and prayerfully, with just the right blend of voices and orchestration, it is a beautiful song.

Yeah, the pews are for sure gonna empty out with Gregorian chant. sigh
Maybe you’re the one who is not with the times? : )

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/com...le-increasingly-attracted-to-gregorian-chant/

https://www.archbalt.org/popularity-gregorian-chant-flourished-recent-years/

https://www.stspeterandpaulbasilica.comc/pages/youth-choir

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/young-nebraska-priests-chants-become-best-selling-album/

Library : Gregorian Chant: Back to Basics in the Roman Rite

Gregorian Chant: Back to Basics in the Roman Rite While Gregorian chant has been sung in the Catholic Church for centuries, in the space of a few years since Vatican II it seems to have vanished. It is difficult to believe that the intent of the Council Fathers was that Gregorian chant and Latin...

www.catholicculture.org

https://angeluspress.org/blogs/trad...182/Ancient-chant-appeals-to-modern-ears.aspx

https://simonjude.org/sacred-music-program

Stanford Report

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Introducing The HackerNoon Blogging Fellowship | HackerNoon

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mystudentvoices.com

 

[pnewton]

I truly want to know what makes a song appropriate for Mass or inappropriate. The protestant hymns I grew up singing are very important to me. I understand where the theology of the song is not Catholic in teaching, but other than that - what?

Here is a general resource guide:

Sing to the Lord

The usual question is one of prudence. As such, decisions as to what is best are made locally.

 

[pnewton]

Maybe you’re the one who is not with the times? : )

Or maybe you simply have different parishes, as opposed to different centuries.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Dlee:

I truly want to know what makes a song appropriate for Mass or inappropriate. The protestant hymns I grew up singing are very important to me. I understand where the theology of the song is not Catholic in teaching, but other than that - what?

Here is a general resource guide:

Sing to the Lord

The usual question is one of prudence. As such, decisions as to what is best are made locally.

“Sing to the Lord” was a document written up by the USCCB, revised in 2007, I believe. It does not have the force of the Vatican behind it, I believe.

This is the issue after Vatican II, there is not a lot of clear guidance, and the documents from the Vatican that do exist, seem to contradict each other. It’s a huge issue - - which is why I think that the music in Catholic parishes is “mixed bag”, to put it nicely.
Here’s a much longer discussion that most people want to read, probably:
https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum...-documents-are-legally-canonically-binding/p1

 

[pnewton]

“Sing to the Lord” was a document written up by the USCCB, revised in 2007, I believe. It does not have the force of the Vatican behind it, I believe.

Yep. That is why I called it a resource guide. It is not even applicable outside of the U.S., so any universal application is irrelevant. It is simply something that the USCCB put out for bishops, priests, and others to use as needed, or not. There is indeed no clear universal guidance, as the particulars of music that is suitable is properly left locally, as per the the principle of subsidiarity (meaning the person closest to the actual use of music is the one best able to say what is best).

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Loud-living-dogma:

“Sing to the Lord” was a document written up by the USCCB, revised in 2007, I believe. It does not have the force of the Vatican behind it, I believe.

Yep. That is why I called it a resource guide. It is not even applicable outside of the U.S., so any universal application is irrelevant. It is simply something that the USCCB put out for bishops, priests, and others to use as needed, or not. There is indeed no clear universal guidance, as the particulars of music that is suitable is properly left locally, as per the the principle of subsidiarity (meaning the person closest to the actual use of music is the one best able to say what is best).

Why is that best left to the local priest? What if his musical education is sorely lacking? What if he just has little time / interest in liturgical music? What if he is a poor administrator with a domineering music director? Why would Catholics in Iowa hear different music / styles than parishes in NY, Florida, etc?
Are we not one Catholic culture - - or does secular pop music culture override the Catholic musical heritage? The reality is, that most American Catholics are deprived of the centuries of quality Catholic liturgical sacred music. Oh well - - they’ll get to hear 10,000 Reasons instead. Goody.

 

[Flopfoot]

I like “sing my tongue the saviours glory” which I think is sung on Holy Thursday. There’s a version which is three bars per line instead of two, has a plain chant feel to it

 

[pnewton]

Are we not one Catholic culture

No. Inculturation is as much a Catholic principle as subsidiarity. If the priest is deficit in music or any other matter, he has get assistance, either up from the diocese, or down from the laity.

As to why this is best, that may be a matter of opinion. For me, it is simply that a priest has his parish to minister to, not traditionalists in some parish across the country who think we need more of this and less of that. That has always been my approach. I have my own parish, over a thousand families, that I try to serve. I see no reason to serve those who will never step past our church threshold.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

So, for me, one question is, is there a Catholic culture at all? Would it mean something to have a Catholic culture, does it mean something if we lack one?