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estesbob
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You have an awfully high opinion of a lady you have never met and have read excatly one article about. Based on what I read she is no Augustine.
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AquinaSavio
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By the same token, you have an awfully low opinion of a lady you have never met. Everything in the article made sense. There’s no reason for you to automatically discredit her because she doesn’t have degrees in theology, philosophy, etc…
No offense, but I’d say that she is a little more qualified to give her opinion about these new age things than you because she has experienced them first hand.
:twocents:
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OldAgeGuru
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I want you to show me a seven year old who wants to read St. Augustine. Show me a ten year old who can understand Thomas Aquinas, I’m 26 and sometimes I barely comprehend him.
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Verita
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The problem that I have with the woman who wrote that article is that 1. I doubt she’s read the books, as many people who are so outspoken against them haven’t 2. she contradicts herself when she recommends Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia but condemns Harry Potter and 3. She falls into the same error that many people who condemn Harry Potter do: misunderstanding Good and Evil.
First, if she had read the books she would know that the books are full of very Christian and very Catholic morality. Having studied the section of the Catechism that deals with the Morality of Human Acts quite thoroughly I am convinced that the morality in Harry Potter matches it just about perfectly. More than that, the themes of the series are very Catholic. The books emphasize the importance of choice, that your choices make you who you are and the necessity of making the right choice over the easy choice. Also, self sacrifice is praised as the highest and most powerful expression of love. In fact, one might see Lily Potter as a messiah figure since it is her willing self sacrifice that saves Harry from being destroyed by Voldemort.
Second, the magic in the Lord of the Rings is the same as the magic in Harry Potter. Both are intrinsic. Magic is a part of the very nature of the Elves, of the Wizards, of Sauron just as it is in the very nature of the wizards and witches in Harry Potter. In both books the magic that people naturally possess can be used for either good or evil. The magic ability that the Elves use to make their Rings of Power is the same magic ability that Sauron uses to make the Ring that enslaves the others. Really, the only difference between LOTR and HP is one of terminology. People get very caught up in the use of the words “witches” and “witchcraft” in HP. But they are only words! Only labels! The witches in HP are not the same as the witches that we are familiar with in the real world. I really believe that if Rowling had foregone the use of these words not half the people who are against Harry Potter today would be.
Third, things are not evil, only actions can be evil. Books cannot be evil, what you do because of a book can be. It is about your choice. Laying the blame on a series of fantastic books which are encouraging kids (and adults) to read as never before takes away from your responsibility in your actions. It’s just an excuse.
First, if she had read the books she would know that the books are full of very Christian and very Catholic morality. Having studied the section of the Catechism that deals with the Morality of Human Acts quite thoroughly I am convinced that the morality in Harry Potter matches it just about perfectly. More than that, the themes of the series are very Catholic. The books emphasize the importance of choice, that your choices make you who you are and the necessity of making the right choice over the easy choice. Also, self sacrifice is praised as the highest and most powerful expression of love. In fact, one might see Lily Potter as a messiah figure since it is her willing self sacrifice that saves Harry from being destroyed by Voldemort.
Second, the magic in the Lord of the Rings is the same as the magic in Harry Potter. Both are intrinsic. Magic is a part of the very nature of the Elves, of the Wizards, of Sauron just as it is in the very nature of the wizards and witches in Harry Potter. In both books the magic that people naturally possess can be used for either good or evil. The magic ability that the Elves use to make their Rings of Power is the same magic ability that Sauron uses to make the Ring that enslaves the others. Really, the only difference between LOTR and HP is one of terminology. People get very caught up in the use of the words “witches” and “witchcraft” in HP. But they are only words! Only labels! The witches in HP are not the same as the witches that we are familiar with in the real world. I really believe that if Rowling had foregone the use of these words not half the people who are against Harry Potter today would be.
Third, things are not evil, only actions can be evil. Books cannot be evil, what you do because of a book can be. It is about your choice. Laying the blame on a series of fantastic books which are encouraging kids (and adults) to read as never before takes away from your responsibility in your actions. It’s just an excuse.
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beckers
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Estesbob a youngsters??? What does that make me???
Verita http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_online.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_1916268”, true);
Senior Member
Verita- Very good points. I’ve tried to explain the good vs evil and how the choices of the characters are what drives the book not the magic. The magic is just a part of the book and she doesn’t spend time telling you how to do magic but uses it more as a background. I think before anyone says anything bad about the books they need to actaully read the books.
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Verita
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Well, that would certainly be the intellectually honest thing to do. Personally, I don’t pass judgement on anything if I don’t know about it. I read the Da Vinci Code before I formed an opinion about it, even though I had already read a fantastic refutation of it.
The fact is the the magic is just a plot device. The story is really about the characters and the choices they make. It’s a surprisingly Christian book, but not in an overbearing way.
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beckers
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Yep i read the da vinci code too. Reading it helped me have a starting point with my friends who had read the book and actaully believed some of the nonsense. Since i had read the book i knew what they were specfically talking about and not just the general idea.
I love the HP books because they are all about choices. I can’t wait to found it Malfory is going to choose good or evil. i think it would be awesome if she had malfory helping harry in some way kill Valdemort. In the end maybe Malfory love of his family makes him chose to fight with harry instead of against him…That would be awesome to show kids that even people you despise can still be good people when it comes to chosing a side or even when they come from bad families. Who knows. thats why i love the books and will be sad when they are done.
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PaulKorb
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I think you missed the point, which is that we can learn things from people who have strayed from the faith.
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PaulKorb
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Interested to know your thoughts on this article:
lifesite.net/features/harrypotter/obrienpotter.html
These excerpts are particularly troubling:
"[R]udeness between students is routine behavior. In volume four especially these trends are in evidence, along with the added spice of sexuality inferred in references such as “private parts” and students pairing off and “going into the bushes.” …
“The false notion of “the end justifies the means” is the subtext throughout. The author’s characterization and plot continually reinforce the message that if a person is “nice”, if he means well, is brave and loyal to his friends, he can pretty much do as he sees fit to combat horrific evil-magic powers being the ideal weapon.”
“Harry blackmails his uncle, uses trickery and deception, and “breaks a hundred rules”. He frequently tells lies to get himself out of trouble, and lets himself be provoked into revenge against his student enemies. He “hates” his enemies. … [T]he child reader is encouraged in his baser instincts while lip service is paid to morality. In fact, nowhere in the series is there any reference to a system of moral absolutes against which actions can be measured. In a word, this is materialist magic, magic as a naturalized human power.”
Aquinas: sorry for perpetuating the debate, but Verita opened the door.
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beckers
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You know for my next round of reading the potter books i think i am going to break out my british versions that my mommy got me while in london. I wonder how much of a langauage difference there is.
I don’t know about anyone else but I can’t wait to see the Wesley Exit scene in the movie!
I don’t know about anyone else but I can’t wait to see the Wesley Exit scene in the movie!
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Nick
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this article from Stephen Greydanus is really relavant here I think. It talk about the simliarites and differences in the magic in the works of Lewis, Tolkien, and Rowling. He does not condemn Potter but he does point out how the books could be potentially dangerous to more impressionable children. He points out the fact that in the works of Lewis and Tolkien there are certain literary barriers set up to discourage the reader from ever wanting to engage in magic themselves. Some of the barriers are 1) the main characters do not use magic 2) we never find out how the characters who do know magic learned to use magic, etc. And while these barriers clearly exist in Lewis and Tolkien they do not exist in the Potter books, therefore making them potentially more dangerous. Greydanus doesn’t try to assert, however, that the magic in Potter is somehow more related to wicca or other occultist types. In fact the magic in Potter is just as fantastical, if not more, than the magic in Lewis and Tolkiens books. Its just that Lewis and Tolkien were aware of the potential dangers in introducing any sort of magic to impressionable minds, and set up barriers to guard against this temptation, while Rowling seems to not feel that there is a danger in presenting magic in the manner in which she does, and thus makes the world of magic more enticing and approachable to young readers. It is a very good article, though somewhat long. Take a look at it:
decentfilms.com/sections/articles/magic.html
decentfilms.com/sections/articles/magic.html
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Verita
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I am not able to read the article at the moment. I’m at work and it’s blocked.
But I will try to comment on the quotes.Quite honestly, what do you expect? Do you think kids are going to be interested in a story about characters who act perfectly all the time? The books are realistic. Kids break rules, teenagers do go off into the bushes. In Rowling’s defense, the “sexuality” doesn’t actually go any farther than lots of “snogging”. But these are just background details. It’s not what the story is about, and that’s clear. As far as rudeness is concerned, one thing that is very positive in this area is that Harry is pretty horrified when he discovers that his father wasn’t the perfect hero that many people make him out to be. He discovers that his father was a bit of a bully and showoff and quite cruel at times. Harry, though he has his own enemies, would never treat them the way James Potter treated Severus Snape. Harry’s behavior is sharply contrasted with his father’s.
I have absolutely no idea what the author means by this. I have seen nothing of the kind in the books. Does the article site a specific example? I think it’s made quite clear that the ends don’t justify the means. For instance, quite often when Harry breaks the rules he suffers negative consequences. In SS, he is given detention for being out of bed after hours. In GOF, when out of bed after hours he gets his foot stuck in a stair and is nearly caught by Snape. In OOTP, his rash actions in breaking into the Ministry of Magic result in his Godfather being killed. No, Harry isn’t punished for breaking the rules much of the time, but the book clearly shows that there are consequences for every decision you make. I think that’s a more important lesson.
And the fact is that Harry cannot do what he sees fit to combat evil. It’s perfectly clear that the only weapon he has against Voldemort is love.
This was addressed somewhat in the preceding response. Yes, Harry lets his cruel relatives think he could use magic on them so that they won’t lock him in the cupboard again. So? He doesn’t exhibit perfect behavior. So? Kids wouldn’t take him seriously if he did. Honestly, these things are so minor as to hardly be noticed. The important thing is the lessons that are taught, sometimes as a result of Harry’s poor choices. The books teach that we are responsible for our choices and our actions and that our choices have consequences. This wouldn’t be possible if people didn’t behave badly sometimes. In fact, some of the best lessons in life can be learned from people who have made horrible mistakes. As was pointed out before, can we learn any less from Augustine because his youth was immoral?
No, no system of morality, no God or religion is specifically talked about in the books. That doesn’t mean a thing. The same is true of Lord of the Rings. Yet we learn of actions that are always evil, the unforgiveable curses. This demonstrates that there is a system of morality there, even if it isn’t directly spoken of.
And what is wrong with “magic as a naturalized human power”? This means that magic is something that people are naturally born with, it is the same in Lord of the Rings. Magic in the real world is always evil simply because we aren’t born with it and to acquire use of it one must obtain it from a supernatural source, and that source isn’t God. Though one could describe the miracles that are performed as the same kind of supernatural, “magical”, ability, only they come from God and not from an evil source. The very fact that the magic in Harry Potter is natural shows that it can’t be evil. Remember that nothing in this world is evil intrinsically, it becomes evil by our actions. Therefore, the emphasis in HP of magic used for good and magic used for evil.
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estesbob
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If you had read the books you would know that the above is utter, utter nonsense.
Kids sneaking off in the bushes? OH MY-and you why know they snuck off in the bushes? So they could Kiss!!! WOW!! We must not expose our children to two teenagers kissng!!!
Of course if you had read the books you would know that there are also some very valuable lessons on what to do and not to do when dancing with a half-giant. This has saved my daughters on more than one occassion…
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PaulKorb
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private parts … read the quote
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estesbob
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I did. like I said it was utter nonsense. Makes you wondr if the Author of the article read the books.
You know, however, you might be right. I always did wonder what happened to Umbridge after she was accosted ny the Unicorns…
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PaulKorb
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Are there any heroes in the Potter series who we or our children should aspire to emulate?
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Verita
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Ahem… by the centaurs.
Since I’m unable to remember absolutely everything about the books, I must confess I can’t refute that claim. Does the article cite specifically the part of the books that mentions private parts or give a quote? Honestly, I don’t remember any references to private parts. The going into the bushes part is obviously from GOF during the Yule ball and all that occurrs is kissing. There is no sex in the books. If there is a reference to private parts, I’m willing to bet it’s innocent. But unless I know specifically where this reference occurs, I couldn’t say for sure.
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Verita
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I would say that Harry himself is quite admirable. And he’s a realistic hero. He’s not perfect so he’s not someone that children would feel is beyond their reach. But all in all, he does his best to always do the right thing and to stand up for what he believes in despite the persecutions of society against him.
Also, Dumbledore is a very admirable character. We don’t know alot about him but we know that he is always fighting against evil and abuses of power no matter what the manifestation.
Those would be the obvious and best choices.
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PaulKorb
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My impression from reading criticisms of Harry is that he is not respectful to his elders; that he lets the end justify the means; and that he makes up his own rules (as opposed to striving toward adherence to objective truth. The occult stuff kind of scares me too.
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OldAgeGuru
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Hermione is pretty awesome. She works hard.
Neville… he’s a guy who doesn’t judge people, and works hard even though he’s a little inept
Neville’s parents… who were tortured into insanity fighting for what’s right.
And models of Catholic behavior… the Weasley’s who have I believe 7 kids, and family always come first, and they welcome everyone into their home even Fleur who’s a twit. Well Percy is kind of a jerk, but I’m hoping he comes around.
Neville… he’s a guy who doesn’t judge people, and works hard even though he’s a little inept
Neville’s parents… who were tortured into insanity fighting for what’s right.
And models of Catholic behavior… the Weasley’s who have I believe 7 kids, and family always come first, and they welcome everyone into their home even Fleur who’s a twit. Well Percy is kind of a jerk, but I’m hoping he comes around.
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