Bettina Arndt on sex starved husbands

[pnewton]

While the article may be crass, there is some truth in the principle. Love gives the gifts the other desires, not the gifts that are easier to give. There are times when the greatest gift I could get would be a couple of hours of peace and quiet for a nap!

But if this subject cannot be broached with one’s husband, then at least a wife should consider if she might not bear some culpability in leading a husband to sin, or visa versa.

 

[EasterJoy]

In my opinion, the sin is not in the not having sex. The sin is in refusing to take the problem seriously. When my friend says: “we have a problem in our sex life” and the wife says: “no we don’t”. The wife is sinning.

Well, there is a sense in which any time that one spouse says “we have a problem” and the other spouse cuts off the legitimacy of the complaint with a peremptory “no we don’t,” the spouse who presumes to cut off all discussion is already on ground that is difficult to defend as ethical. The intention to harm may not be there, the awareness in the offender that she is not merely offering an opinion but refusing to listen when listening is a duty may not be there, but that doesn’t make it excusable. Until a spouse who believes there is a problem at least feels he or she has been heard out, when one spouse says there is a problem, then there is at very least an issue that need to be discussed. Merely saying “no we don’t” is not OK.

I think part of the problem is that some women aren’t interested in the marital embrace…

I think some women haven’t experienced sexual intimacy with their husbands that bring the label “marital embrace” immediately to mind.

I’m talking about women who would LOVE a “marital embrace” but who have given up on the prospect of ever getting it out of their sex life with the man they married. Exhibit A of that kind of husband would be the guy who wants nothing more intimate or emotionally demanding than a “10 minute bonk.”

I mean that it is insulting to imply that the attitude “I don’t particularly want you, I just want sex” is a legitimate request to share a “marital embrace.” That is a request to use one’s spouse as an object of self-gratification. Agreeing to that kind of encounter is** not **among the duties of marriage.

 

[Xantippe]

I think some women haven’t experienced sexual intimacy with their husbands that bring the label “marital embrace” immediately to mind.

I’m talking about women who would LOVE a “marital embrace” but who have given up on the prospect of ever getting it out of their sex life with the man they married. Exhibit A of that kind of husband would be the guy who wants nothing more intimate or emotionally demanding than a "10 minute bonk."

There is that.

One of my thoughts on reading that was “you left some stuff out.”

 

[stinkcat_14]

I don’t see how, as a Catholic, you can be so certain when another person is sinning.

At my house, I have to deal with phobic behavior from two family members. One family member was once horribly bitten by a dog and has had many years of terror whenever he sees a dog off-leash, even an obviously happy Golden Retriever, and even if the dog is 100 yards away and innocently enjoying a frisbee game or fetching a tennis ball. I’ve often been asked to go over to the dog owner and ask them to leash the dog. So embarrassing!

Another family member is high functioning autistic and petrified by having to talk to unfamiliar people, even when the unfamiliar person is her own grandma. She goes into panic mode at the idea of us eating lunch or dinner with people she doesn’t know well, even if she’s only going to have to say “hello.” There have been a number of occasions when she refused to sit at the same table with our friends. Again, so embarrassing!

So, are these people sinning or selfish, or are they just paralyzed by fear?

I’ll be honest, both of these phobias have caused me a lot of inconvenience and embarrassment over the years (not to mention depriving me of much-needed social contact)–but however much I suffer from dealing with their fear, they are both suffering a lot more when confronted with a dog or an unwanted social interaction.

So, I would suggest your friend do a lot of reading on boundaries, PTSD, recovery from sexual abuse, and phobias. I just do not get the feeling that either of you understands any of those things.

Edited to add: When your friend’s wife says “no we don’t,” it reminds me a lot of my family members’ phobias. Rationality and fairness go right out the window when a person is gripped by fear. Unfortunately, it’s pointless to reason with a terrified person–the fear is always going to be stronger.

If one cannot make good on a debt, then the least one needs to do is work to get in position to pay the debt. If I am unemployed and I have credit card debt I at least have an obligation to look for work, or look for some way to free up cash to pay the debt. I can’t just say, well I am unemployed, so credit card company you are out of luck because I don’t want to look for a job. Same thing with the marital debt. Now if there is going to be a long term relationship, there needs to be some give and take on both sides. But the refusing spouse just doesn’t have the moral right to opt out altogether.

My guess is we understand a lot of this more than you realize. Sexual abuse is very complicated and cannot be adequately addressed in short paragraphs. I think that there is no doubt that the wife is incredibly scared. She has let this thing ruin her life, which would be fine if it was just her. The problem is, she is using it as an excuse to ignore her husband and not give his issues the respect they deserve. It’s too bad he didn’t know about this before he got married.

 

[EasterJoy]

If one cannot make good on a debt, then the least one needs to do is work to get in position to pay the debt. If I am unemployed and I have credit card debt I at least have an obligation to look for work, or look for some way to free up cash to pay the debt. I can’t just say, well I am unemployed, so credit card company you are out of luck because I don’t want to look for a job. Same thing with the marital debt. Now if there is going to be a long term relationship, there needs to be some give and take on both sides. But the refusing spouse just doesn’t have the moral right to opt out altogether.

My guess is we understand a lot of this more than you realize. Sexual abuse is very complicated and cannot be adequately addressed in short paragraphs. I think that there is no doubt that the wife is incredibly scared. She has let this thing ruin her life, which would be fine if it was just her. The problem is, she is using it as an excuse to ignore her husband and not give his issues the respect they deserve. It’s too bad he didn’t know about this before he got married.

No. The marital debt and credit card debt are two entirely different things. One is an integral part of the mutual commitment of two entire lives—so integral, in fact, that it is referred to as a “consummation” without which the fullness of the relationship is still unrealized. The other debt is a matter of holding up your half of a business transaction in which the other party has done all they are bound to do for you. It is really crass to try to equate the two.

If you stop and think about that and still believe there is a direct correlation, you’re essentially saying that the marital debt is no more than a high-status version of prostitution. It is repugnant that a Christian would look at his or her marriage that way.

 

[stinkcat_14]

No. The marital debt and credit card debt are two entirely different things. One is an integral part of the mutual commitment of two entire lives. The other one is a matter of holding up your half of a business transaction in which the other party has done all they are bound to do for you. It is really crass to try to equate the two.

I was not equating the two, I was just making an illustration. I was trying to describe the root of the problem. Let me try again:

1. In marriage, the wife (or the husband) has a moral obligation to have sex with the husband (or wife).
2. Let’s say a spouse has a legitimate reason not to have sex (i.e. past trauma), the other spouse owes some forbearance here.
3. However, the refusing spouse does not have a moral right to indefinitely say: “you get nothing, take it or leave it”.

That is, if there is a problem fulfilling the debt, then the person with the problem needs to work on it, they don’t get a free pass.

If you stop and think about that and still believe there is a direct correlation, you’re essentially saying that the marital debt is no more than a high-status version of prostitution. It is repugnant that a Christian would look at his or her marriage that way.

Like I said, I was just using an illustration. I don’t recommend being wedded to any credit card company for life.

 

[Xantippe]

If one cannot make good on a debt, then the least one needs to do is work to get in position to pay the debt. If I am unemployed and I have credit card debt I at least have an obligation to look for work, or look for some way to free up cash to pay the debt. I can’t just say, well I am unemployed, so credit card company you are out of luck because I don’t want to look for a job. Same thing with the marital debt. Now if there is going to be a long term relationship, there needs to be some give and take on both sides. But the refusing spouse just doesn’t have the moral right to opt out altogether.

My guess is we understand a lot of this more than you realize. Sexual abuse is very complicated and cannot be adequately addressed in short paragraphs. I think that there is no doubt that the wife is incredibly scared. She has let this thing ruin her life, which would be fine if it was just her. The problem is, she is using it as an excuse to ignore her husband and not give his issues the respect they deserve. It’s too bad he didn’t know about this before he got married.

Nothing is stopping your friend from going to counseling himself and reading up on both abuse issues and implementing the non-sexual advice and seeing what he can implement of the sex advice himself. I haven’t read that literature myself, but it might be helpful, for example, to have a lot of non-sexual physical intimacy without expectations and to increase her sense of safety in the relationship. It might also be helpful to say that he’s not going to bring up re-starting their sexual relationship at random times, but that he’s going to check in with her briefly every Wednesday night after the kids go to bed, that he’ll ask her how comfortable she is with what they are doing physically, if there’s anything that she would like to fine tune (for example, no surprise hugs or grabbing from behind), or if there’s anything she’d like to try in the coming week. Keep it short of course, and no guilt and no pressure. It’s just for checking in and getting information.

One thing that comes to mind base on my experience in a different context is that a lot of people (such as myself) wind up with a habit of expressing fear and sadness via anger.
So, your friend’s wife may be expressing her feelings of being weak and unsafe via anger, which seems like a strong, safe emotion. (I came by that pretty naturally as it’s my family’s style, but your friend’s wife may be doing it because of her history of abuse and a fear that showing weakness will make her vulnerable.) When I’ve been ragey-est, it’s been when I felt the most unsafe. So, it could be helpful for your friend to ask, are you actually mostly angry, or do you feel more sad or afraid?

I also think it could be helpful for you to drop into the thread here on What I Learned from Feminism and Consent and ask Dark Light what she thinks. I would suggest asking specifically about consent. Here’s the thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1053428&page=45

I suspect that having stronger ideas about consent would be helpful. Hopefully, Dark Light can help you.

I think there’s an inherent problem with your approach in dealing with a victim of sexual abuse. A victim of sexual abuse is used to being pressured, backed into a corner, bullied, guilted, blackmailed, coerced, etc., and any behavior from a husband that resonates with that past behavior (like a lot of “you gotta”) talk is going to cause a lot of problems. I would talk to a specialist about how to overcome that.

I suspect that (paradoxically) one of the things your friend’s wife needs is to feel that she has choices.

But your friend really needs to talk to a reputable specialist and do a lot of reading on his own. One of the questions he needs to ask (in case his wife agrees to go) is to ask how the specialist avoids accidentally triggering patients’ PTSD when talking about their past abuse. (This is a big problem.) He may need to see a number of specialists before he comes up with a good answer. That is the million dollar question, and if he comes back with a good answer, he can come back to the wife with a proposed plan of treatment and ask her to go.

Your friend’s wife isn’t being crazy about not wanting to go to some random dude–it could genuinely be very damaging to her if the therapist’s approach is dumb. (As I mentioned earlier, I have one real life relative and one online contact who both suffered from having their PTSD triggered by stupid therapy approaches.)

Also, come to think of it, it may be helpful to look into specialized PTSD treatment. That may be less threatening to your friend’s wife than some sort of sex therapy, and it may be more helpful.

 

[Allegra]

I am not asking for names and addresses. But I would like to know how a couple recovers when a wife says to her husband: “you get nothing, take it or leave it” and repeats that for two years. The wife in my example is getting everything she wants in the relationship. He runs ragged trying to keep her happy, and she abuses him when he asks for her to take his needs seriously. How does a sexual relationship recover from this situation? Just give me one example of how one can recover from this?

Like I said, when the husband understands the reasons for the abstinence and they do what is required to alleviate the issues that require the abstinence.

 

[Xantippe]

That is, if there is a problem fulfilling the debt, then the person with the problem needs to work on it, they don’t get a free pass.

Wow, you make this sound like this sound like so much fun!

Some more serious thoughts:

–This is going to sound really unfair to you, but the person with the mental health problem is not the person who is going to be capable of doing all the heavy lifting. They can’t bootstrap themselves into psychological health–they’re going to need a lot of help.
–It’s likely that your friend’s wife has already re-experienced a lot of trauma through trying. It’s unlikely that things were awesome during their early married life and perfect and then for no reason she just stopped wanting to have sex. Presumably, things were terrible from your friend’s wife’s point of view well before that. So, she probably already has a lot of experience of trying to force herself to do this and experiencing trauma within marital sexuality.
–She probably believes (and with some likelihood of being correct) that further attempts are going to cause her more trauma.
–That’s why it’s really important for your friend to be the guy who does the research, does initial appointments, interviews therapists, reads books recommended by therapists, and and gets the therapist to put together a rough outline of a recovery program. There need to be as few dead ends an surprises as possible, as little re-traumatizing as possible. (Avoiding re-traumatizing is another good area for research.)
–Lastly, another area for investigation is that she may be experiencing depression and hopelessness. The thing she said about being OK not having sex points in that direction–she does not believe that things can get better. If a person does not believe in the possibility of a better life, it’s going to sound stupid to hurt herself trying to make life better. I think it would be a very good idea to have her screened for depression. Again, her husband may nee to do the heavy lifting here.

 

[pianistclare]

I don’t really think it changes the picture that much, the moral obligation on the part of the refusing spouse is still there. The Church does not teach that spouses who were abused are exempt from the marital debt. The refused spouse may owe patience, but the refuser does not have the right to just say: “you get nothing, take it or leave it”

Friend, you couldn’t be more off the track.
A person who suffered trauma absolutely is not trying to punish someone, be mean, selfish, or obstinate.
They simply cannot function. And saying “marital debt! marital debt!” is going to drive them away from the Church. The one place where they should find compassion and mercy.

Please stop referring to her as “the refuser”.
That would be like me referring to her husband as “the jerk”.

Sounds bad, no?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I was not equating the two, I was just making an illustration. I was trying to describe the root of the problem. Let me try again:

1. In marriage, the wife (or the husband) has a moral obligation to have sex with the husband (or wife).
2. Let’s say a spouse has a legitimate reason not to have sex (i.e. past trauma), the other spouse owes some forbearance here.
3. However, the refusing spouse does not have a moral right to indefinitely say: “you get nothing, take it or leave it”.

That is, if there is a problem fulfilling the debt, then the person with the problem needs to work on it, they don’t get a free pass.

Like I said, I was just using an illustration. I don’t recommend being wedded to any credit card company for life.

Jeeze man…

 

[pianistclare]

Is marriage ONLY about sex?



wow.
I guess when people get old and frail, they just might as well divorce, eh?
Crazy thread.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Friend, you couldn’t be more off the track.
A person who suffered trauma absolutely is not trying to punish someone, be mean, selfish, or obstinate.
They simply cannot function. And saying “marital debt! marital debt!” is going to drive them away from the Church. The one place where they should find compassion and mercy.

Please stop referring to her as “the refuser”.
That would be like me referring to her husband as “the jerk”.

Sounds bad, no?

It is not charity to confirm someone in their sin. It is called the marital debt for a reason. I agree the bringing up the issue of marital obligation to have sex is not going to be helpful. But that does not mean the obligation does exist. If a wife refuses sex, refuses to work on the problem, verbally abuses the husband for even bringing up the subject, then the wife has serious moral problems. Now in the case of my friend, the wife doesn’t go to church, so she buys into the secular idea that there is no obligation towards her husband. My friend is Catholic and one thing he needs to investigate is whether the marriage is even valid. There could very well be a defect of consent issue.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Jeeze man…

Are you saying that an otherwise healthy spouse has the moral right to say: “you get nothing, take it or leave it?” Is that really morally acceptable?

 

[pianistclare]

It is not charity to confirm someone in their sin. It is called the marital debt for a reason. I agree the bringing up the issue of marital obligation to have sex is not going to be helpful. But that does not mean the obligation does exist. If a wife refuses sex, refuses to work on the problem, verbally abuses the husband for even bringing up the subject, then the wife has serious moral problems. Now in the case of my friend, the wife doesn’t go to church, so she buys into the secular idea that there is no obligation towards her husband. My friend is Catholic and one thing he needs to investigate is whether the marriage is even valid. There could very well be a defect of consent issue.

Since you have little knowledge of this topic PLEASE PLEASE do not encourage this guy to question his marriage.
How much more abuse is going to be heaped upon this marriage?

She can see a priest. He can see a priest.
But the FIRST element in marriage is LOVE.
No one has mentioned if they love each other.

Marital debt is one of those rather misleading terms that people make a big deal about.
Please have a knowledgeable priest instruct you on this.

I’m out.
Plus, it’s really none of your business, especially in terms of involving yourself in the legitimacy of his marriage. That’s pretty presumptuous. You only hear one side of the story. If he spent half as much time talking to his dear wife than complaining to you, maybe they could get somewhere.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Is marriage ONLY about sex?



wow.
I guess when people get old and frail, they just might as well divorce, eh?
Crazy thread.

Sex is an important part of marriage, you cannot have a marriage without it. When people get old and frail there is little they can do. My issue is when someone can do something about the problem but refuses to do anything at all. It is very much like being married to a drunk who refuses to stop drinking. If the husband drank all the time and refused to work would the responses on this board really be “suck it up buttercup?”

 

[stinkcat_14]

Since you have little knowledge of this topic PLEASE PLEASE do not encourage this guy to question his marriage.
How much more abuse is going to be heaped upon this marriage?

She can see a priest. He can see a priest.
But the FIRST element in marriage is LOVE.
No one has mentioned if they love each other.

Marital debt is one of those rather misleading terms that people make a big deal about.
Please have a knowledgeable priest instruct you on this.

I’m out.
Plus, it’s really none of your business, especially in terms of involving yourself in the legitimacy of his marriage. That’s pretty presumptuous. You only hear one side of the story. If he spent half as much time talking to his dear wife than complaining to you, maybe they could get somewhere.

I agree my friend has had enough abuse, and you don’t really know how much I know or don’t know. It is very presumptuous of you to make such claims.

In cases of abuse the Church does allow for divorce and separation. You think this is just about sex, there is a lot more going on that is irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Xantippe]

I think that there’s probably a gender distinction in play that makes it difficult for some men to realize that having intercourse is not some sort of instant fix for all relationship ills.

A man who is having intercourse is almost certainly totally absorbed in the matter at hand, so it’s easy for him to believe that the same is true for the woman.

A woman…well, who knows? She could be thinking about her grocery list (we’re almost out of Cheerios and TP), thinking about what a mess the bedroom is and what a bad housekeeper she is, wondering if she looks fat, wondering if that’s the baby just about to wake up or if that noise is the pitter patter of the preschooler wanting potty help, remembering how mad she is about that thing her husband did, wondering if she’s going to get pregnant, experiencing pain and hoping for it all to be over soon, or maybe having flashbacks to sexual abuse. So many possibilities!

The mere fact that a woman is experiencing intercourse says practically nothing about her internal disposition–if she’s not actually into it, she could be thinking about literally anything.

Of course, it is also possible for males to be distracted or disinterested, but if the guy has that level of distraction and disinterest, intercourse is unlikely to be physically possible. When a guy is distracted or disinterested, it’s not gonna happen. When the woman is distracted or disinterested, it’s Marital Debt Enforcement Time.

Biology is very unfair sometimes.

 

[Xantippe]

Since you have little knowledge of this topic PLEASE PLEASE do not encourage this guy to question his marriage.
How much more abuse is going to be heaped upon this marriage?

She can see a priest. He can see a priest.
But the FIRST element in marriage is LOVE.
No one has mentioned if they love each other.

Marital debt is one of those rather misleading terms that people make a big deal about.
Please have a knowledgeable priest instruct you on this.

I’m out.
Plus, it’s really none of your business, especially in terms of involving yourself in the legitimacy of his marriage. That’s pretty presumptuous. You only hear one side of the story. If he spent half as much time talking to his dear wife than complaining to you, maybe they could get somewhere.

Yeah.

If you know each other in real life and know him and his wife socially, that’s way TMI.

People shouldn’t share private information about their spouses with people who the spouse may have to deal with in real life and/or who don’t have professional rules about confidentiality.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I think that there’s probably a gender distinction in play that makes it difficult for some men to realize that having intercourse is not some sort of instant fix for all relationship ills.

A man who is having intercourse is almost certainly totally absorbed in the matter at hand, so it’s easy for him to believe that the same is true for the woman.

A woman…well, who knows? She could be thinking about her grocery list (we’re almost out of Cheerios and TP), thinking about what a mess the bedroom is and what a bad housekeeper she is, wondering if she looks fat, wondering if that’s the baby just about to wake up or if that noise is the pitter patter of the preschooler wanting potty help, remembering how mad she is about that thing her husband did, wondering if she’s going to get pregnant, experiencing pain and hoping for it all to be over soon, or maybe having flashbacks to sexual abuse. So many possibilities!

The mere fact that a woman is experiencing intercourse says practically nothing about her internal disposition–if she’s not actually into it, she could be thinking about literally anything.

Of course, it is also possible for males to be distracted or disinterested, but if the guy has that level of distraction and disinterest, intercourse is unlikely to be physically possible. When a guy is distracted or disinterested, it’s not gonna happen. When the woman is distracted or disinterested, it’s Marital Debt Enforcement Time.

Biology is very unfair sometimes.

I wonder how many males actually think having intercourse is a cure all for all marital ills? I don’t recall anyone here suggesting such. In the case of my friend, he is not asking for sex, he is asking for a commitment to work on the problem. The last time he asked for that she threatened divorce. That is abuse plain and simple.