"Between Them and God"

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But what if I didn’t know and showed up late? It’s nobody’s fault, but I’m still not owed anything.
 
Btw, the Pope himself said, “It is therefore necessary to renew our commitment to proclaiming the Gospel which is a leaven of freedom and progress, brotherhood, unity and peace. I would ‘confirm once more that the task of evangelizing all people constitutes the essential mission of the Church’, a duty and a mission which the widespread and profound changes in present-day society render ever more urgent. At stake is the eternal salvation of persons, the goal and the fulfillment of human history and the universe.”

Wouldn’t it be less than “urgent” if souls were not so dearly at stake?
 
Nabooru said:
But what if I didn’t know and showed up late? It’s nobody’s fault, but I’m still not owed anything.
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No, you’re certainly not owed anything. That’s for sure! Especially if the word has been spreading all over the place and you took no interest in what the buzz was all about.

However, we’re not sure whether there’s some secret stash of $$ to which the Lottery Winner, in his great compassion, has kept for you.

Or, perhaps you’re just out of luck.

Which is why it’s really a charitable thing for us to spread the news, no?
 
See, I’m more likely to side with “out of luck” when it comes to fate, but others side more with “he’ll probably have something for you.” which side is the church on, or is it somewhere in between?

Personally, I think a sort of limbo is the best hope, so instead of money, he might pity you and give you his leather jacket, or something. But don’t tell that to the people at my church…
 
Nabooru said:
See, I’m more likely to side with “out of luck” when it comes to fate, but others side more with “he’ll probably have something for you.” which side is the church on, or is it somewhere in between?
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The Church says: we don’t know, except that it’s possible for them to be saved. But if they are saved it’s only through the atoning death of Christ and through His Body, the Catholic Church.
 
Nabooru said:
But would it be reasonable to say that those within the body of Christ have a much, much better chance of dying in that grace, and we do not know for certain if anyone outside of it has done so? Perhaps they end up in a kind of limbo, but the wages of sin is death, and thus one would need to be sinless to enter heaven IMO.
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Dr. George Tiller was shot on the steps of his church. A Christian church. One which he was an elder of.

Am I saying Tiller’s in Hell? No, not by a long shot, he could have been sitting in the pew that Sunday and suddenly had God jab him in the guts and say “Hey, Tiller, stop killing my babies! Get out there, close your clinic and minister to those sick foetuses and their famlies” Tiller could have gotten up and marched outside ready to start his new life as a Pro-Lifer.

But we don’t know that. The old lady in church sitting next to you, the preacher on the street corner, the priest saying Mass at the Catholic School, none of them are guareenteed salvation. We can not say “Oh, they’re Christian, therefore they’re getting into heaven, or they’re certainly got better odds then the Muslim or the Wiccan”.

We just don’t know.

What we do know is that Christ offered us salvation from the cross. We know the way Christ wants us to live our lives. We know that there are sins that seriously indanger our souls and could dump us in the lake of sulphur. I think there’s going to be a lot of “Christians” who get to Hell and are very surprised!

As for the non-Christians, there’s a couple of questions, why are they non-Christian? Because of out and out rejection of Christainity? Because of how they were raised? Because of ignorance? Can you blame the illiterate girl in a Muslim village, raised Muslim, stritcly so, can you blame her for not being Christians? Or the Aztec man just trying to care for his wife and family and be a good “Aztec”, can you blame him because he never saw a white man, let a lone a Bible?

We can only trust them to the mercy of God - as the Catholic Church teaches.

But do not fall into the trap that because youre Christian with your lips you’re automatically through the pearly gates.
 
vera_dicere said:
Dr. George Tiller was shot on the steps of his church. A Christian church. One which he was an elder of.

Am I saying Tiller’s in Hell? No, not by a long shot, he could have been sitting in the pew that Sunday and suddenly had God jab him in the guts and say “Hey, Tiller, stop killing my babies! Get out there, close your clinic and minister to those sick foetuses and their famlies” Tiller could have gotten up and marched outside ready to start his new life as a Pro-Lifer.

But we don’t know that. The old lady in church sitting next to you, the preacher on the street corner, the priest saying Mass at the Catholic School, none of them are guareenteed salvation.
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Exactly!
We can not say “Oh, they’re Christian, therefore they’re getting into heaven, or they’re certainly got better odds then the Muslim or the Wiccan.”
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On this I am going to have to disagree with you, vera. Christians, by virtue of their Baptism, have been marked indelibly for Christ, and therefore certainly do have better odds than the Muslim or the Wiccan.
 
If Christians’ chances were not better, isn’t that religious equality/pluralism?
 
Nabooru said:
If Christians’ chances were not better, isn’t that religious equality/pluralism?
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Actually, according to Catholicism saying that Christianity is no better than any other religion is the heresy of syncretism, not pluralism.
 
I’m pretty sure that whatever it’s called, considering all religions to be equally valid and successful in terms of salvation is frowned upon. Nobody can have a 100% chance of getting into heaven at the end of their lives, at least not as far as we know, although God would know. But it would be a mistake to assume that everyone has an equal near-100% chance regardless of what they believe and do.
 
Nabooru said:
If Christians’ chances were not better, isn’t that religious equality/pluralism?
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No, we do not come to the RCC to have more “chances”.
We are here to worship Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Maker of the Universe.
And, as Jesus said, after we have done everything, we must say: “We deserve nothing, MyLord, we’ve just done our duty!”
 
Our motivation for accepting Christ is not as important if we do so sincerely. Although at first it may be out of fear, eventually we do, if we are true, feel the love of God for what it is, and our own humility and undeservedness. And part of that comes from the knowledge that God has offered us salvation (through the Holy Ghost’s inspiration), and we responded, even though we had no real “right” to do so, if one thinks in terms of reciprocation.

Why does the Holy Ghosts inspire some to be Christians, but not all? I don’t know. Just because no one is predestined for hell doesn’t mean nobody is going there. If one of your family members had a drug addiction, that they truly felt they enjoyed, would you drive to help them to quit anyway, or would you just assume they know what they’re doing and will probably be fine? The latter is what we’d be tempted to do, because it’s easier and reassuring, but that’s what makes it dangerous. We can hope they don’t get themselves I the meantime, but does that hope have any effect on the actual outcome? If I hope too much, I might convince myself that there’s nothing to be worried about. If one hopes, that hope must be cautious. To help my relative out of their drug addiction is the safest and best thing I can do, because at least then I’ll know they’re sober and healthy.
 
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