Beware of Bible studies!

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Dan-Man–that was my experience exactly. While I will always be grateful to the Baptists for opening the Scriptures to me–I can no longer attend their Bible studies. I love Beth Moore, whose study “Beloved Disciple” was used directly by God to bring me into the Catholic faith; if you leave aside her Baptist belief in eternal security (which in my opinion is just a miscommunication, really–what we’re all trying to stress is God’s love and our “sure and certain hope”, and we talk past each other), and an inevitable lack in discussion of Eucharist (although no malice–and a beautiful presentation within Protestant theology), she is a marvelous teacher–and I can study her on my own, because she is genuinely interested only in proclaiming Christ, not in highlighting differences or criticizing any other Christian, including Catholics. But put her study in a group of evangelicals, and it’s a whole different story.

I love being Catholic–never knew about the Eucharist before–could never give it up, but one of the real crosses to bear is not being able to share my joy with my evangelical friends–they’d never understand. I lasted only 2 sessions after my conversion–2 anti-Catholic-type comments in one class was enough for me (granted, they didn’t know I’d converted–don’t know if that makes it better or not!)–one about confessing to a priest, another former Orthodox who was turned off by candles and liturgical worship!

Not all Protestants are like this. I feel like if I discussed issues with my former (liberal, college educated congregation) Presbyterian church, there would be a spirited, fruitful, intellectual discussion, with respect–I think. In fairness, though–when I told one lady there about my conversion, there was a noticeable expression of distaste (and over the phone, yet!) about my belief in the Real Presence. It was like, “I don’t believe that.” Also, she just had to tell me about all the “bad Catholic priests” she had known…

(to be continued–they said my post is too long)
 
the rest of the post!

Nancy–as an example–I wasn’t prepared for the “liberal” vs. “conservative” stuff. One discussion, in RCIA–in a campus ministry church–on the Sacraments presented Eucharist as this communal thing…how we weren’t supposed to engage in “personal devotions” (it was never explained what that meant), but look around at everyone and what was going on. Nothing at all was said about the presence of Jesus. It was only much later that I found out this is pure nonsense. But at the time it put me in a depression for a week–hard to explain–you had to be there.

Another time, getting in a discussion of Scripture and having the director and others talk about how not everything in the book of John was actually the real words of Jesus. (When I lodged a polite question objecting to this, not only did no one agree with me, I was criticized for essentially putting my brain on the shelf and believing the Bible was dictated word for word. Like it has to be either-or, you know?) Wish I’d been quicker on my feet and asked them what about the 6th chapter? And what about the last sentences of the book where it says the beloved disciple is the one who wrote these things and that they are all true?

Also, the opinion expressed this year that abortion is one of many issues, and a person taking Communion is between him and God, and to criticize someone shows judgmentalism on our part, and communion shouldn’t be used as a weapon, etc., etc. For awhile there I was sincerely very confused about whether or not the Catholic church even had definite beliefs, or if it was really a matter of your own conscience. If that’s the case, I could have just remained Protestant…

So–even though I’ve changed parishes and am more hopeful, I’m very skittish about either Protestant Bible studies or Catholic ones! Study on my own is fine, but what about not only fellowship, but accountability?? What’s to prevent me from having my own personal “catechism” like Luther?

Wish Scott Hahn and his bunch were in my parish. And where are all these parishes where the priests and deacons actually teach–and teach the real Faith?

Like I said, I’m not opposed to intellectual study of the Bible. But I don’t like to see it used as an excuse to debunk faith. I’ve had a lifetime in my liberal Protestant denominations to know that my own faith was eaten away over the years by these doubts. And now you have many people who really don’t think Jesus was God (except like, “we all have God within”), but still call themselves Christians. That’s why the Baptists became so appealing, and whether people like to hear it or not, that’s why we Catholics are losing so many people. We need to confront this head on, but there’s such a tendency to get defensive and combative, which would be only natural, considering all the persecution Catholics get. But it doesn’t solve the problem, you know?
 
On the positive side, our archbishop is one of the ones who came out with a strongly worded letter saying no person advocating abortions is welcome to receive Communion in our diocese until they repent. It will be interesting to see how this goes over in my former parish!
 
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cestusdei:
But most are designed to convert you to the church that sponsors them. They love to get uninstructed Catholics to join the study. When you bring up a Catholic point you are told that this is “non-denominational”. But when they bring up an anti-Catholic point then that is just fine.
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😦 That happened more times then I want to say to friends and family members. UGH! So very frustrating! You warn them and then they come over with the Bible to show you all these passages about Mary having more children etc. It sure made extra work for me to find all the bible quotes refuting this. The bible quotes are taken out of context and and yes won’t look into it when you show them the error of their ways. Stating simply this is a non-denominational bible study! UGH! To frustrating for me.:banghead:
 
iam taking a beth moore bible study iam in my last weeks an i can agree with lamb 100 her book at least the one breaking free is a good one. the only thing that if you take this bible study with a bunch of baptist it become a different ball game. i already been question, an have come to a point that everyone is allow to pray except me. they find my prayers offensive. iam in my last weeks an because i can finish with the group ,cause of personal reason, it became a problem because accordingly to them i break a commitment:eek:. any way i will finish it if the moderator let me have the last three videos. on my opinion this bible study is good is you do it with catholics, beth moore has a couple of points that are good. iam planning to do another bible study now with scott hann, iam looking forward to it.:bounce: :gopray2:
 
Hi All,

I agree with father on ecumenical Bible studies. We have a large church here in our town that targets Catholics through their “non-denominational” Bible studies. As a former DRE I have had mothers in my office crying because they let their son or daughter go to the Protestant youth group and now their kids are coming home saying that they don’t want to be Catholic and that the Catholics Church is of the devil.

There are two problems that need to be overcome as I see it. First, good Bible Study material. One of the most popular Catholic Bible studies is the Little Rock Bible Study which are produced in my diocese (I am sad to say). It has been my experience that they break down ones faith instead of building it up. I went to a Little Rock Bible Study training session a few years back and most of the time was spent telling us why we shouldn’t believe the Bible. The lady teaching the course started out with these words, “We are not Protestants, we do not take the Bible literally.” I sat through most of the sessions listening to how St. John didn’t write his Gospel and how the multiplication of the fishes and the loaves was really a miracle of sharing, etc. ad nauseum. Finally I couldn’t stand it any more and I asked, “If I can’t believe the Bible when it tells me that Moses parted the Red Sea, or that Jesus multiplied the fish and loaves, or that the ax head floated, how can I believe the Bible when it tells me that what I receive on Sunday morning, that looks for all the world like bread and wine is really the Body and Blood of Christ?” She answered that I was getting “facts” mixed up with “truth.”

Secondly, many former-Catholics that I have spoken to, went to Protestant Bible studies in search of fellowship. Seems we Catholics aren’t real good at that sometimes. It is sad but true that a lonely person will trade theology for love.

I have found with these so-called non-denominational Bible Studies, that if you really know your Bible and your Catholic faith, you are not invited back.

PAX CHRISTI

Bill
Christ the King Apologetics Guild
 
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ricatholic:
However, if you have the confidence that Jesus gave us to discern what He taught, ther should be no problems.

Peace
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Where was this promise of infallibility for the laity? It’s not in Scripture or Tradition. Actually the crowds often did not understand Jesus. Our fallen nature makes it difficult to accept instruction. The Pope, not we as individuals, has the gift of infallibility. We are to faithfully follow the shepherd and seek after the Truth in humility, yes, but I do not recall Jesus giving the people a promise of discernment.

Maybe I am wrong or reading you wrongly, but I see no charism of discernment for people. If anything our fallen nature leads us to hear what tickles our ears.

peace
 
I should have added the point that you should NOT allow your children to go to fundamentalist youth programs. Basically that is inviting them to leave the Church. I have seen this happen.

I cannot recommend the Little Rock scripture study. I tried using it once and had to spend way to much time explaining why it was wrong. The Ignatius Bible Study is better or go here for something better:

emmausroad.org/shopnew/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=7&subcat=43&cat=Bible+Studies

PS: Keep in mind ri is not really Catholic. He denies infallibility. Except for his own.
 
Toni said:
😦 That happened more times then I want to say to friends and family members. UGH! So very frustrating! You warn them and then they come over with the Bible to show you all these passages about Mary having more children etc. It sure made extra work for me to find all the bible quotes refuting this. The bible quotes are taken out of context and and yes won’t look into it when you show them the error of their ways. Stating simply this is a non-denominational bible study! UGH! To frustrating for me.:banghead:
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I love that little head-banging guy!

Toni–you might find helpful this one page laminated sheet called Catholic Verse Finder by San Juan Catholic Seminars–they put out a series of apologetics handbooks, also. The sheet is great–it’s covered on both sides with verses that have the Catholic response to various arguments put forth against them. It might save you some time and frustration. The Catholic Answer Bible has lots of similar verses in it too, and is a little easier to use, because they’re in between the pages of an actual Bible. I admire your gumption for looking up all these verses and standing up for the faith; I tend to just get depressed and discouraged, and like Fitz–even though I have these apologetics materials–I really don’t want to use them. (See head-banging guy!)
 
Bill Rutland:
Hi All,

One of the most popular Catholic Bible studies is the Little Rock Bible Study which are produced in my diocese (I am sad to say). It has been my experience that they break down ones faith instead of building it up.
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Bill, this just breaks my heart to read your post–and thank you anyway for posting it! I wish you were in our parish so we could talk in person. My former, liberal/university Catholic parish uses the Little Rock Bible series. I didn’t know anything about it, but because of my RCIA experience (same stuff you mention), I hesitated. Sounds like I was right. I’m too new a Catholic to be able to handle much more of this sort of stuff. I almost was one of those that traded theology for love, too. Well, bad theology and lack of fellowship for “pretty good” theology and great fellowship. There’s really no contest if we forget the Eucharist–that’s the key to everything. The Eucharist kept me from leaving the Church only 6 months after I’d joined it. Actually, I couldn’t leave…but I could have spent a lifetime in a state of depression. Continually focusing on Christ every day is the only way I get through sometimes.

It seems like Catholics are in a time warp or something. I remember 30 years ago in my Presbyterian church hearing about how feeding the 5000 was a “miracle” of sharing. How the possessed boy had mental illness (OK, that one I’ll grant–maybe). What it did, over the years, was both weaken my faith and create deep in my heart a spiritual depression I couldn’t shake until the Lord poured out his grace on me by revealing the Real Presence. Then, I went to a Catholic church, expecting this great Christian fellowship like the book of Acts or something, and WOW…reality check.

Thank you so much for allowing me to vent–I haven’t really been able to share this with other Catholics very easily.

Pax et bonum,
Donna
 
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MichaelTDoyle:
Where was this promise of infallibility for the laity? It’s not in Scripture or Tradition. Actually the crowds often did not understand Jesus. Our fallen nature makes it difficult to accept instruction. The Pope, not we as individuals, has the gift of infallibility. We are to faithfully follow the shepherd and seek after the Truth in humility, yes, but I do not recall Jesus giving the people a promise of discernment.

Maybe I am wrong or reading you wrongly, but I see no charism of discernment for people. If anything our fallen nature leads us to hear what tickles our ears.

peace
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I’m so glad you brought this up–I’m interested in hearing more discussion of this, because as a new Catholic, it’s so hard for me (a Protestant for 50 years) to figure out how I’m supposed to read the Bible–I’m kind of afraid to look at it for fear of getting it wrong.
However, my first response to Michael’s post would be to ask–isn’t there a fruit of the Spirit (or gift of the Spirit) that is discernment? I do think all Christians have the gifts–but I need to know–maybe Father can chime in here?–to what extent, if any, does the laity have them? Our Christ Renews His Parish heavily banks on my theory…so…how does one avoid a Protestant-personal interpretation type trap?

Inquiring minds want to know! 😉
–Donna
 
Also, I rely heavily on discernment just to exist in a Catholic church. When you can no longer trust the leadership to teach true doctrine (yes, and I include bishops), what else can we do?
–Donna
 
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cestusdei:
nu,
Then they will say priests don’t want you to read the Bible. That we are afraid you will discover the “truth” we are hiding from you. It ain’t so, but that is what they will think. Tell them you like reading the Bible and the Church encourages it. But that when you are looking for a guide to scripture study you prefer one from the Church that gave us the Bible in the first place. That way you get not just partial truth, but the whole truth. Doesn’t that sound better, lol?

All,
If you have no one in your parish then I would say go with Hahn, the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, or the Navarre Bible commentary and do it on your own. If you can get a small group started then by all means to so. But as long as you use good solid orthodox material you will be fine. Another possiblity is to read scripture commentary directly from the Fathers. Maybe start out by saying the Office of Readings every day. Can’t go to far wrong with the saints.
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And what about the common sense angle. If you went to study the dialogues of Plato wouldn’t you expect it to be difficult simply because you are trying to understand translations of very old Greek texts. Not only do you have to struggle to understand the literal meaning of the text, you have to grasp the cultural context and also how the text has been interpreted by scholars over the centuries. You must have humility in the face of this task, and have a teacher whose knowledge has been certified.
 
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Lamb100:
I’m so glad you brought this up–I’m interested in hearing more discussion of this, because as a new Catholic, it’s so hard for me (a Protestant for 50 years) to figure out how I’m supposed to read the Bible–I’m kind of afraid to look at it for fear of getting it wrong.
However, my first response to Michael’s post would be to ask–isn’t there a fruit of the Spirit (or gift of the Spirit) that is discernment? I do think all Christians have the gifts–but I need to know–maybe Father can chime in here?–to what extent, if any, does the laity have them? Our Christ Renews His Parish heavily banks on my theory…so…how does one avoid a Protestant-personal interpretation type trap?

Inquiring minds want to know! 😉
–Donna
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I read Scripture. I try to do it prayerfully. I look to the magisterium for interpretation on passages that trouble me or are confusing. I also–and this is really great–look to approved church theologians for a deeper understanding of the Scripture. I am not in the fight for my soul alone! I have the communion of the saints and the church militant rooting for me. Jesus left a church for me before he ascended to the Father. I will use it.

Thanks for the question. I sorta needed to remind myself too 😛
 
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Lamb100:
Also, I rely heavily on discernment just to exist in a Catholic church. When you can no longer trust the leadership to teach true doctrine (yes, and I include bishops), what else can we do?
–Donna
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I’m curious which false doctrines you’re aware of bishops teaching.

Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Toni said:
😦 That happened more times then I want to say to friends and family members. UGH! So very frustrating! You warn them and then they come over with the Bible to show you all these passages about Mary having more children etc. It sure made extra work for me to find all the bible quotes refuting this. The bible quotes are taken out of context and and yes won’t look into it when you show them the error of their ways. Stating simply this is a non-denominational bible study! UGH! To frustrating for me.:banghead:
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The very term “non-denominational” is a falshood. The denomination of a non-denominational church is the theological bent of the pastor. Call it what you will…non-denominationalism is, itself, a denomination. All it means is that they are not formally affiliated with a denomination with an actual name. They are their own denomination.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Forget Little Rock, forget anything from Collegeville, be suspicious of anything you find in a secular bookstore, flee as from Old Scratch by anything offered by baby-boomer ex-nuns!

There are so many good ORTHODOX and spiritually nourishing Catholic Bible studies out there, you can stay busy for a long time. Here is the short list:

Emmaus Road books features a range of affordable Bible studies, some gerneral, some just for men or women’s groups:
emmausroad.org/shopnew/s…t=Bible+Studies

The Ignatius Study Bibles, by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch, with questions for study at the back of each book (currently the four Gospels, Acts, and Romans:
ignatius.com/ViewProduct…ry_ID=6&TabID=1

Catholic Exchange has very in depth studies by Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins, currently Romans and Genesis, with Exodus coming this fall. Others available:
catholicexchange.com/css…asp?study=BS13

Scott Hahn also features Bible studies at the beginning, intermediate, and advanced levels on his web page:
salvationhistory.com/

The Catholic Serendiptity Bible, NAB without the scholarly footnotes but with lots and lots of practical Bible studies and study helps:
zondervanbibles.com/031093737X.htm

Steve Ray’s monumental Catholic Bible study of John’s Gospel:
ignatius.com/ViewProduct…Keywords%3djohn

Consider watching as a group one of Steve Ray’s Footprints of God videos, currently Jesus, Mary, Peter, and Moses. They are extremely well done and come with great study notes:
catholic-convert.com/DesktopDefault.aspx

Beginning Aplogetics with Study Guide/questions available:
catholicapologetics.com/ba1.htm

Sheet from Coming Home Network that leads you through the Bible AND Catechism in a year:
chnetwork.org/readguide04.pdf

That should get you started! God bless you for spreading God’s Word
 
Michael (post #54)–thanks for the reminder, too, about the saints and the Church Militant. Love that…🙂
–Donna

Re post #55–
Nancy–like I said in earlier posts, just the stuff coming from dissenters. As a brand new Catholic who thought the Church had a consistent body of beliefs (I now know that it does, but I was really beginning to wonder and give in to despair), it was very confusing to me to hear that you don’t have to believe this or that…and I’ve heard horror stories about priests and bishops in the early years following Vatican II, and irreverant Mass liturgies. We were told in RCIA that the only thing we had to believe was the Creed; that this was what the profession of faith “all that the Church teaches…” really means; in other words, that and the ex cathedra statements of the Holy Father. I kind of took that with a grain of salt and resolved to believe the more restrictive meaning when I made my profession.

Anyway, never having been aware of all this factionalism, it was really a flood of too much information for me all at once. It’s been a really stressful, but exhilarating year. Hope that answers your question.
–Donna
 
“baby-boomer ex-nuns”—LOL!!! Thanks for the delicious humor. Some day I’ll get over my sensitivity to all this mess and be able to laugh more about it. I admire how so many Catholics are so easy going about it all, knowing that Christ promised the gates of hell would never prevail. I get discouraged easily and forget this. Many thanks for the great resources!
–Donna
 
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cestusdei:
I should have added the point that you should NOT allow your children to go to fundamentalist youth programs. Basically that is inviting them to leave the Church. I have seen this happen.
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cestusdei–I very much agree. But unfortunately these fundamentalist youth programs conceal their real affiliation by calling themselves “non-denominational Christian” which unknowing Catholic parents understand to be “ecumenical”. My specific concern is Young Life which inserts itself into public schools by declaring itself “non-denominational” (not even “Christian”). So many Catholic parents are so thrilled that their kids are hanging around wholesome Christian youth leaders that they don’t see that the Christian youth ministers are in fact evangelical fundamentalist Protestant. The way I am dealing with it is to alert the public school principals in my area and other administrative/legal means. Do you have any suggestions how to identify and counter these “non-denominational” youth ministries? I have looked at their Statement of Faith and clearly they are Protestant (not Catholic) but the Catholic parents I have spoken to see them as harmless. Thanks for any help you can give me.
 
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