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ridesawhitehors
Guest
Are you kidding? How do you know what color I am? And what is the difference in your superior statement? More politically correct huh? Do you have a problem with ‘Mexican’? pleeeze…
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RichT
Guest
It doesn’t matter what color you or anyone is. Using the term “Mexican” is very stereotypical. How do you know there aren’t people of other cultures in this group, like Puerto Ricans, or Dominicans, or Haitians for example. And as far as being political correct, I am married to a hispanic woman, so yes I get a little bothered when people tend to stereotype people into one single group based on a language or based on them being mostly one thing or another.Are you kidding? How do you know what color I am? And what is the difference in your superior statement? More politically correct huh? Do you have a problem with ‘Mexican’? pleeeze…
The whole comment reminds me of a person I overheard saying they were going down town to pick up a couple of Mexicans to bring home to help with some yard work. Not people, or some guys, or even some of those guys who stand on the street waiting for work, but instead, a couple of Mexicans, like they are some commodity or something.
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RichT
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Moderators, this thread needs to be closed!
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ridesawhitehors
Guest
Rich ~ It was all fine till you made it ugly. As a native american I am disappointed in your tone and sad that mature people can’t discuss something substantive without getting so P.C…
My community is half Mexican, they are proud to be Mexican… we are friends. The other half is non- mexican. Their is nothing to be ashamed of. THink it over.
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YinYangMom
Guest
As a third generation american-mexican, raised to speak english only, but looking like I wouldn’t know a word of english, allow me to share my experience.
The mexican population in my town has grown consistently in the 9 years I’ve been here. Our parish has english-only masses, one polish, one korean, and one spanish.
Holy Thursday is the one time each language is represented. That was tough because I really didn’t have a clue what the second reading was because the Korean lector read that one. I got the first reading because that was in spanish and I understand a lot more spanish than I can speak. There were two homilies - one in english the other in spanish, but they were different messages not a translation. Overall, it was a very moving experience to have our greater church community gathered together in the pews (it was a packed mass).
During Lent we have Soup, Lecture & Stations each Friday. Different ministries/clubs provide soups/bread, the community shows up for a free meal and a lecture by a parishioner about their personal faith journey. Afterward we go to stations of the cross together.
While the english group is having soup/lecture, the hispanic group is doing their stations in spanish. I don’t know if they have a meal before or after.
Once we had the hispanic group host the soup/bread and provide the guest speaker. That was very nice because both groups showed up, we got along well and really appreciated the speaker’s story. But for the following week, it was back to caucasian attendance.
It seems to be a cultural thing. While I too, would love to see us just be one body of Catholics, I understand why the services need to be separate. The messages delivered in the homilies are catered to the audience. The hispanic immigrant culture has its own set of issues families face. There’s a strong movement to get men actively involved with their families, to stop drinking, to not take advantage of their wives, stop taking their children for granted - and a move to get the children to respect their parents because they preserve their cultural roots not despite it. The ‘macho’ code of the Latin American countries is deeply rooted but not supported in the U.S. The Catholic church helps the marriages of these couples, it serves to teach parenting skills which value education over labor (a huge difference from Mexican cultural priorities).
I got a real strong taste of this once when I accidentally hung around for the Hispanic Eucharistic Adoration hour. I had just finished my regular hour (I was sitting toward the front with the entrance behind me) when suddenly a male voice spoke out starting the sign of the cross in spanish. I looked behind me and the room was packed and there was the priest leading the group in prayer. There were other prayers, and one lady next to me was kind enough to offer a copy of the prayer booklet they were using so I could follow along. There were several other caucasians in the room who stayed as well - probably, like me, out of curiosity.
They played a CD of a lecture followed by a song. The gist of the message was calling on those in the room to follow Christ, allow Him into their lives, be more loving and charitable, offer Him their family troubles/worries.
It sure was different, because our adoration hour is absolute complete silence with individual reflection, but this other method was rich and moving. Between the homily at Holy Thursday, and this Adoration devotion I could see the distinct difference in the message the people are seeking and the priest is offering.
We are fortunate to be the host church for these separate communities. There is a spanish speaking priest from a neighboring town who comes here to meet with the ministries of our community. There is a korean speaking priest from another town who comes once a month to serve a Korean population which gathers here. And there is a polish speaking priest who comes once a month for a group which gathers together here as well. On a daily basis we have an english speaking pastor and and english speaking associate vicar. They work well with the other priests to find ways to serve the respective cultures within our parish community.
The mexican population in my town has grown consistently in the 9 years I’ve been here. Our parish has english-only masses, one polish, one korean, and one spanish.
Holy Thursday is the one time each language is represented. That was tough because I really didn’t have a clue what the second reading was because the Korean lector read that one. I got the first reading because that was in spanish and I understand a lot more spanish than I can speak. There were two homilies - one in english the other in spanish, but they were different messages not a translation. Overall, it was a very moving experience to have our greater church community gathered together in the pews (it was a packed mass).
During Lent we have Soup, Lecture & Stations each Friday. Different ministries/clubs provide soups/bread, the community shows up for a free meal and a lecture by a parishioner about their personal faith journey. Afterward we go to stations of the cross together.
While the english group is having soup/lecture, the hispanic group is doing their stations in spanish. I don’t know if they have a meal before or after.
Once we had the hispanic group host the soup/bread and provide the guest speaker. That was very nice because both groups showed up, we got along well and really appreciated the speaker’s story. But for the following week, it was back to caucasian attendance.
It seems to be a cultural thing. While I too, would love to see us just be one body of Catholics, I understand why the services need to be separate. The messages delivered in the homilies are catered to the audience. The hispanic immigrant culture has its own set of issues families face. There’s a strong movement to get men actively involved with their families, to stop drinking, to not take advantage of their wives, stop taking their children for granted - and a move to get the children to respect their parents because they preserve their cultural roots not despite it. The ‘macho’ code of the Latin American countries is deeply rooted but not supported in the U.S. The Catholic church helps the marriages of these couples, it serves to teach parenting skills which value education over labor (a huge difference from Mexican cultural priorities).
I got a real strong taste of this once when I accidentally hung around for the Hispanic Eucharistic Adoration hour. I had just finished my regular hour (I was sitting toward the front with the entrance behind me) when suddenly a male voice spoke out starting the sign of the cross in spanish. I looked behind me and the room was packed and there was the priest leading the group in prayer. There were other prayers, and one lady next to me was kind enough to offer a copy of the prayer booklet they were using so I could follow along. There were several other caucasians in the room who stayed as well - probably, like me, out of curiosity.
They played a CD of a lecture followed by a song. The gist of the message was calling on those in the room to follow Christ, allow Him into their lives, be more loving and charitable, offer Him their family troubles/worries.
It sure was different, because our adoration hour is absolute complete silence with individual reflection, but this other method was rich and moving. Between the homily at Holy Thursday, and this Adoration devotion I could see the distinct difference in the message the people are seeking and the priest is offering.
We are fortunate to be the host church for these separate communities. There is a spanish speaking priest from a neighboring town who comes here to meet with the ministries of our community. There is a korean speaking priest from another town who comes once a month to serve a Korean population which gathers here. And there is a polish speaking priest who comes once a month for a group which gathers together here as well. On a daily basis we have an english speaking pastor and and english speaking associate vicar. They work well with the other priests to find ways to serve the respective cultures within our parish community.
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Hamilcar
Guest
I’d like to weigh in from the perspective of a Lector who is bilingual (English & Spanish). My parish is divided into three language communities, English speakers, Spanish speakers and Tagalog speakers. Each community has its own Mass on Sundays. On special occasions, we have tri-lingual Masses (e.g. Easter Vigil). This seems to work best for all of us. I can read in either English or Spanish and on those special occasions I will do both during the same Mass. All other times, each language group sticks to itself. When we want to foster greater unity amongst the communities, we hold dinners, prayer meetings, etc. to which everyone is invited. Those who want to come and be exposed to other ways usually have a great deal of fun. Those who do not are free to decline. I guess my point is that it should always be a voluntary thing and not something that is forced upon people. In my parish, the English speaking community is slowly dying out. Its composed mostly of retired people of Irish background. I think it will be a real loss to the rest of us when that part of the Catholic Community is gone, but the Church will go on as always.
Rodrigo
PS: Some of my family comes from Spain and they resent the implication that because they are Hispanic, they are not white. Hispanic culture is basically European, even when you are dealing with Hispanics who are ethnically of indigenous background.
Rodrigo
PS: Some of my family comes from Spain and they resent the implication that because they are Hispanic, they are not white. Hispanic culture is basically European, even when you are dealing with Hispanics who are ethnically of indigenous background.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Personally, I agree with your last statement. If a priest really wants to focus on united the community as Roman Catholics, utilizing the Mass to do so, then have a Tridentine Mass in Latin.
I haven’t been to one, but do they have homilies there??? If so, then there might have to be two homilies per mass - one in english and one in spanish.
But as I pointed out before, the messages delivered might have to be different in order to serve the spiritual needs of the population.
Yes, we’re all in the U.S. now, but our cultural roots are different and our needs are different. Where a homily for caucasians can utilize baseball/football references (as ours often do during baseball season), for the hispanic community soccer is the big deal to which they can relate.
The hispanic experience of Catholicism is very, very different than the caucasians. The mass conversion of mexicans to the faith was the result of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the Church providing basic needs to communities, where those communities had to convert in order to receive the services so for the Hispanic culture social services are closely intwined with spiritual guidance.
Whereas for caucasions, for the most part, we come to the Chuch for spiritual direction and growth - to grow in a more personal relationship with Christ, not so much to have the church meet our clothing, food, financial needs, or to have the church address our marital/parental relationships.
The mass means different things to different cultures.
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YinYangMom
Guest
But the mass was not intended to be recited in multiple langauages each time.
Even in Rome there are multiple masses going on at the same hour in different languages - but in separate areas of the basilica. It’s not one big cathedral with several priests reciting each part of the mass in different languages, one at a time, taking turns.
On special occasions, yes, mulitple languages can and should be used - as we saw at the Pope’s funeral and the induction mass for Benedict. That celebrates our diversity in special way.
I don’t believe our diversity was intended or is prescribed to be celebrated at every mass.
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palmas85
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I originally come from a city that had a multitude of ethnic parishes. For instance, you had St Henrys Parish, originally built to serve Germans. Two blocks away, St Stephens, built for the English and slighty further out was the Church of the Annunciation, Italian. I suppose these arangments worked well But in those days the majority of the Mass was said in Latin with only the Homilies and special announcements made in whatever language was spoken at that church. If you are going to have bi lingual masses that would seem to me to be the best option. Masses often have no or very limited homilies. As long as the rest of the Mass is the same therer should be no problem. Unfortunately the current Mass is celebrated differently everywhere and virtually everytime you go.
I think if we are going to have bi lingual masses why not return to the old system. say the majority of the Mass in Latin, a unifying language, and have the homily in whatever language is appropriate. That would seem to solve the problem amicably. No mater what language you speak most people should be able to follow the Latin. At least everyone would be in the same boat or on the same page as it were.
I think if we are going to have bi lingual masses why not return to the old system. say the majority of the Mass in Latin, a unifying language, and have the homily in whatever language is appropriate. That would seem to solve the problem amicably. No mater what language you speak most people should be able to follow the Latin. At least everyone would be in the same boat or on the same page as it were.
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Wolseley
Guest
In Grand Rapids, Michigan, they had the same type of arrangement. St. Mary’s was German, St. James was Irish, and St. Adalbert was Polish, and all of them within six blocks of each other.
I quite agree.
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littlelambs33
Guest
I can see your uncomfort in all of this, Mass may be the one place left were you felt inclusive in the English Language.
In America we have all felt that English was our National Language, but with the ever growing population of Latin American and Mexican Immigrants, Spanish will become a primary language here. it is just a fact of life in this country.
I grew up going to latin masses and not understanding a word of what was being said, then from latin to portugeese masses still not understanding much of what was being said. Today from time to time i still go to the portugeese mass because of the passion and emotion that is there, the Brasilan or Spanish mass because the Music.
If you only open your heart to God, sitting in his house, proclaiming his name and Jesus as King. What more but worship and praise and glory is there in his house?
Its not about the priest its about the fellowship, the ministry, how we love one another.
Remember at the end when we stand before him he will only ask one question of us, " What did you do for me with the life that i gave you???""""" Its all about how we serve him.
I guess the rest really doesnt matter. Remember God puts things that make us uncomfortable in our way to do a working in us to humble us and make us better people for his kingdom, to do his work. Of course these are all my thoughts on the matter.
In America we have all felt that English was our National Language, but with the ever growing population of Latin American and Mexican Immigrants, Spanish will become a primary language here. it is just a fact of life in this country.
I grew up going to latin masses and not understanding a word of what was being said, then from latin to portugeese masses still not understanding much of what was being said. Today from time to time i still go to the portugeese mass because of the passion and emotion that is there, the Brasilan or Spanish mass because the Music.
If you only open your heart to God, sitting in his house, proclaiming his name and Jesus as King. What more but worship and praise and glory is there in his house?
Its not about the priest its about the fellowship, the ministry, how we love one another.
Remember at the end when we stand before him he will only ask one question of us, " What did you do for me with the life that i gave you???""""" Its all about how we serve him.
I guess the rest really doesnt matter. Remember God puts things that make us uncomfortable in our way to do a working in us to humble us and make us better people for his kingdom, to do his work. Of course these are all my thoughts on the matter.
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ridesawhitehors
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RichT
Guest
First of all, I am not trying to make anything ugly. Here in the Phoenix area we have a large population of both Hispanics and Native Americans. I myself am a descendant of a full blooded Choctaw. We have a turbulent environment here in regards to both cultures. Especially in regards to the Hispanics and the immigration issues we face. I just can’t help but think of all things, it is very important to remain PC in regards to this. Your original statement of Mexicans and non-Mexicans would have offended many of the Hispanic people I know, including my wfe and her family.
Anyway, I am done and wont be coming back to this thread. So have a good day.
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HelpingHands
Guest
Hi, I just want to say, in the Columbia River Gorge, where Ride a White Horse is from, the Hispanic people come to work the agricultural areas of Washington and Oregon, and they are all Mexican. That’s what they are. It’s not like other areas where Hispanics can be from various other countries. The area is Anglo, Mexican, and Native American. They come to work in the vast orchards of the region. So, using the word ‘Mexican’ is very accurate.
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RichT
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That may be fine if you are only speaking to people from that area, but here you are speaking to the world.
Okay, now I’m leaving, really.
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HelpingHands
Guest
I think she used the word to refer to the Mexican people who form a separate community at her parish. I didn’t know Mexican was considered a dishonorable title. Is that out of date these days? PC terminology keeps changing constantly, I just can’t keep up any more…
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Brain
Guest
is the preist to which the original post refeers to, phillip fitzimons by any chance? i heard he moved to dublin but your description sounds very much liek him.
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pnewton
Guest
It is not the nationality of the people at Mass, but the language that was the issue of this thread. “Mexican” is an imprecise term when comes to describing a language or culture.
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Iohannes
Guest
The Solution would be LATIN. Why? Latin can play as a neutral language as well as a sacred language.
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marvin
Guest
Excellent idea. I really wish we could go back to the Latin Mass. I think it would be a great unifier.
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