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msproule
Guest
Problem solved. What a novel idea!
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msproule
Guest
English/Yooper Bi-Lingual Mass is the norm, is it not?
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JimG
Guest
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ncjohn
Guest
I’m sure I’ll be the voice out in the wildreness on this one, but I’ll say it anyway: for me at least, Latin is not the answer. The only thing Latin does is make it so nobody understands it so that we’re all equal.
And please don’t tell me about the missalettes with one language on one side and another on the other side. I’m one of those who can’t focus on God if I’m going back and forth trying to figure out what is being said. I lived through the pre-V2 TLM and hated it, even though I was an altar boy and could parrot all that stuff back. Also, as mentioned, it doesn’t solve the problem of the readings and/or homily.
I’m not sure what the solution is for the bilingual situation. We have separate masses and only mix the languages on Christmas and Easter in our parish, but I don’t see that as a viable solution either as it dictates what time people can go since we only have one of each and live in a rural community where there isn’t another option. There may be a solution, but my little mind hasn’t been able to come to it yet.
And please don’t tell me about the missalettes with one language on one side and another on the other side. I’m one of those who can’t focus on God if I’m going back and forth trying to figure out what is being said. I lived through the pre-V2 TLM and hated it, even though I was an altar boy and could parrot all that stuff back. Also, as mentioned, it doesn’t solve the problem of the readings and/or homily.
I’m not sure what the solution is for the bilingual situation. We have separate masses and only mix the languages on Christmas and Easter in our parish, but I don’t see that as a viable solution either as it dictates what time people can go since we only have one of each and live in a rural community where there isn’t another option. There may be a solution, but my little mind hasn’t been able to come to it yet.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Oh yeah, that’s right.
If we were to use the Latin for the N.O. we’d already know what we’re saying for our part, and that of the priest…c’mon now, haven’t most of us memorized all this by now anyway?
And since we already know what the readings are we can bring our bibles with us pre-marked…or read it from the missalette (if they do the readings in latin too, I’m not sure how that would work.
I would imagine the Our Father is quite lovely in latin, as would be the Holy, Holy, Holy.
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msproule
Guest
I was not suggesting Tridentine. Although, that would be fine, as well. Nevertheless, you are correct in pointing out that the readings and homily will still present a dilemma.
How about subtitles projected onto the wall? As tacky as that may be, it should help.
At the bilingual Masses I have attended, the language of the readings is alternated. The psalm is likely to be bilingual–the response sung in one language and repeated in another and the verses alternating between languages. ALL the readings are provided in written form in all languages so that everyone gets to understand.I was not suggesting Tridentine. Although, that would be fine, as well. Nevertheless, you are correct in pointing out that the readings and homily will still present a dilemma.
How about subtitles projected onto the wall? As tacky as that may be, it should help.
The homily is presented twice. First in one language, then in the other. Sometimes the homilist switches back and forth. This defintely makes the homily a bit long but it also forces the homilist to do more preparation since he will have to translate (or have someone prepare a translation for him.)
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Pug
Guest
Mexican does not have to be offensive as a word, as the television show 100 Mexicanos Dijeron would indicated by its title (it’s like Family Feud). Hispanic is offensive to some groups, so maybe Latino or Latina is better. Or possibly Chicano to a person in the US who is of Mexican heritage.
My uncle is Mexican, by his own chosen description. A child looking upon him would classify him as white. Saying someone is Mexican is not about color or any other bad thing, afaik. Maybe it all depends on where you grew up?
My uncle is Mexican, by his own chosen description. A child looking upon him would classify him as white. Saying someone is Mexican is not about color or any other bad thing, afaik. Maybe it all depends on where you grew up?
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Hamilcar
Guest
Pug,
Sadly, some of us find the term Latino/a offensive. I prefer Hispanic in English and Hispano in Spanish. I don’t know if you realize that there is a rift in our community between those who emphasize our Spanish/European background (Hispanos) and those who emphasize their Indian (Native American) ethnicity (Latinos). You can’t win either way with this argument. I say keep the Masses separate and only mingle them for special occasions that are voluntary only.
Rodrigo
Sadly, some of us find the term Latino/a offensive. I prefer Hispanic in English and Hispano in Spanish. I don’t know if you realize that there is a rift in our community between those who emphasize our Spanish/European background (Hispanos) and those who emphasize their Indian (Native American) ethnicity (Latinos). You can’t win either way with this argument. I say keep the Masses separate and only mingle them for special occasions that are voluntary only.
Rodrigo
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Morning_Glory
Guest
Mexicans are recent immigrants?
Mexicans have been in the Southwest since before the colonies existed. They are the reason that there are so many Catholic missions in the area.
Dang it! You’re in Amurica now son, speak the language! Oh please! My own family fell into this kind of drivel and lost the use of speaking 4 different languages.
Most of those speaking here about Mexicans being regulated to “their own” mass because “they” prefer it that way are only being guided by your own closed minds. After all, who wants to be where they are not wanted?
Bi-lingual is hard. Yes it is, so is Latin. So is Catholicism. So is a lot of things. The language in your heart is what is heard by God.
Maggie
Mexicans have been in the Southwest since before the colonies existed. They are the reason that there are so many Catholic missions in the area.
Dang it! You’re in Amurica now son, speak the language! Oh please! My own family fell into this kind of drivel and lost the use of speaking 4 different languages.
Most of those speaking here about Mexicans being regulated to “their own” mass because “they” prefer it that way are only being guided by your own closed minds. After all, who wants to be where they are not wanted?
Bi-lingual is hard. Yes it is, so is Latin. So is Catholicism. So is a lot of things. The language in your heart is what is heard by God.
Maggie
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PaulNik
Guest
When my wife (who is Mexican/American and a Roman Catholic) and I attend Mass we go to the Spanish language Mass because I had never been to one and it is a good opportunity for me to practice my Spanish. I noticed right away that in the liturgy and all the responses the more informal “tu” is used when addressing God and Jesus as opposed to the more respectful “Usted”.
Is this something that has always been done? I find it odd that after praying to “Nuestro Senor” we then would refer to him using “tu”.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Is this something that has always been done? I find it odd that after praying to “Nuestro Senor” we then would refer to him using “tu”.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
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Pug
Guest
No, not me, but it is everywhere…take the Our Father…
Padre nuestro, que estas en el cielo, sanctificado sea tu nombre
If you speak Spanish, you can see the tutear there. However, the Latin Our Father has a tuum there also. Does Latin have the distinction between a su and a tu?
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MARTIN2
Guest
HOW ABOUT TRI-LINGUAL MASS, ANYONE?
DURING HOLY DAYS WE HAVE TRILINGUAL MASS, IN ENGLISH, SPANISH AND POLISH. THAT’S THE DIVERSITY OF OUR PARISH. ONLY DURING HOLY DAYS AND FEASTS. I’M FROM MEXICO SO IT’S OK WITH THE SPANISH AND ENGLISH, BUT THE POLISH!!. ANYWAYS I THINK IT’S A NICE THING TO DO, ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS THOUGH!.
JUST IMAGINE HOW THE HEAVENLY LITURGY WILL BE?
LIKE SOMEBODY SAID BEFORE, IT CLEARLY SHOWS THE UNIVERSALITY OF THE CHURCH. WE’RE CATHOLIC.
DURING HOLY DAYS WE HAVE TRILINGUAL MASS, IN ENGLISH, SPANISH AND POLISH. THAT’S THE DIVERSITY OF OUR PARISH. ONLY DURING HOLY DAYS AND FEASTS. I’M FROM MEXICO SO IT’S OK WITH THE SPANISH AND ENGLISH, BUT THE POLISH!!. ANYWAYS I THINK IT’S A NICE THING TO DO, ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS THOUGH!.
JUST IMAGINE HOW THE HEAVENLY LITURGY WILL BE?
LIKE SOMEBODY SAID BEFORE, IT CLEARLY SHOWS THE UNIVERSALITY OF THE CHURCH. WE’RE CATHOLIC.
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Hamilcar
Guest
Pug,
Boy are you opening up a can of worms with this question !!!
In Spanish, the tu is the equivalent of the Latin tu. Both should be translated into English as thou, not you. Someone can correct me, but it’s my understanding that in English “you” was strictly the plural form originally and “thou” was the singular familiar form. In Spanish, plural you is Vosotros. In Medieval and early Renaissance Spanish, tu and vos alternated as the familiar singular form (thou). Tu won out in most ot the Spanish speaking world (except for Nicaragua, my home country and places such as Argentina). In the meantime it was felt that tu was much too familiar to address your elders or social superiors with, so Vuestra Merced (Your Grace) came into use around the time of Cervantes. That form eventually was simplified into Usted and Usteded. In most of Spanish America, the plural form even managed to oust the Vosotros form as the “you” plural.
In the case of God, it is felt that the relationship between God and his creatures (us) is so close that the Tu form is appropriate. After all, Jesus called his father Abba (daddy), didn’t he?
Rodrigo
Boy are you opening up a can of worms with this question !!!
In Spanish, the tu is the equivalent of the Latin tu. Both should be translated into English as thou, not you. Someone can correct me, but it’s my understanding that in English “you” was strictly the plural form originally and “thou” was the singular familiar form. In Spanish, plural you is Vosotros. In Medieval and early Renaissance Spanish, tu and vos alternated as the familiar singular form (thou). Tu won out in most ot the Spanish speaking world (except for Nicaragua, my home country and places such as Argentina). In the meantime it was felt that tu was much too familiar to address your elders or social superiors with, so Vuestra Merced (Your Grace) came into use around the time of Cervantes. That form eventually was simplified into Usted and Usteded. In most of Spanish America, the plural form even managed to oust the Vosotros form as the “you” plural.
In the case of God, it is felt that the relationship between God and his creatures (us) is so close that the Tu form is appropriate. After all, Jesus called his father Abba (daddy), didn’t he?
Rodrigo
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Paul_W
Guest
My parents’ parish in Connecticut is mostly white but partly Hispanic. In an effort to minister to this part of the congregation, one of the three readings is in Spanish, but the rest of the Mass is in English.
It always strikes me as a terrible compromise. If I haven’t read the readings before Mass, I have no idea what I’m missing, and how it ties in to the other readings. If the theory is that the Hispanics don’t understand English, then they’re hearing one of the readings, and missing all the rest of the Mass.
I have no qualms with Mass in a “foreign” language that serves the needs of the congregation. But a bilingual Mass seems like the typical liberal solution in which equality means we’re equally inconvenienced.
It always strikes me as a terrible compromise. If I haven’t read the readings before Mass, I have no idea what I’m missing, and how it ties in to the other readings. If the theory is that the Hispanics don’t understand English, then they’re hearing one of the readings, and missing all the rest of the Mass.
I have no qualms with Mass in a “foreign” language that serves the needs of the congregation. But a bilingual Mass seems like the typical liberal solution in which equality means we’re equally inconvenienced.
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Pug
Guest
Rodrigo, gracias! I thought the Abba might have something to do with it. To my understanding, you are correct that the thee/thou/thine were singular and the ye/you/your was plural. The older bibles are so helpful that way if you want to know if “you” in current English is a singular or a plural in the underlying Greek text.
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Brenda_V
Guest
I have to agree except in my Parish we are not talking about the Hispanic immigrants - many of the Hispanic families have been here much longer than any Northern Europeans.I don’t know about this bi-lingual Mass, but this priest is merely trying to address the gulf that is often present in parishes that have large amounts of immigrant Hispanic members. I don’t think it’s nice to mock. He’s making an effort, trying something new. Maybe it’s not the best idea in the world, but he’s trying to bridge the gap bettween cultures.
It’s sad that the Mexican and Anglos in this parish don’t interact.We are all one body. He’s just trying to address this.
In the different Parishes I have gone to I have not seen any real division among the Hispanics and the Norhtern European Catholics either. We all intermingle and are good friends with each other.
In my Parish we have always had a bi-lingual Mass, Spanish and English and depending on who says Mass all the parts of the Mass except the Homily and Gospel are in Spanish.
As for the comment about those in ND not needing a bi-lingual Mass then I guess you haven’t been there in a long time. In many of the Farming communities you have a high Hispanic population (it might only be 5% of the entire populaiton but I would guess a good 25% of the Catholics in that community!) What has happened is many of those who used to be migrant workers stayed put and live there year round now. My fil, a retired farmer, hates the fact that his little town is now more Hispanic than it used to be. God bless the man but he has a deep seated prejudice against these people for some reason and he is a very nice man otherwise. Could be that they are Catholic and Hispanic, two strikes against them in his eyes!
I remember the Polish Masses when living in ND. The Spanish Masses were generally implemented though for the summers when the immigrants were there in full force (not migrant as in from Mexico, but immigrant as in US citizens born and bred who traveled from community to community to help the farmers in their fields).
I might add that a well done Bi-lingual Mass that is done the same every weekend for many years is a great thing. I personally love going to this Mass as I love singing in Spanish and yes, I am as white as they come.
I can at any given time attend an all English Mass, a bi-lingual Mass or a Spanish only Mass at a Parish near me. I am talking anywhere from a 7 a.m. Sunday Mass to a 12:30 p.m. Mass. Just depends on the Parish and the make-up of that Parish.
Brenda V.
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littlelambs33
Guest
I think what you need to do is talk to you Priest. You say that even the latin community is not happy then you need to have a person from the latin community and yourself go and have a talk with the Priest and express your concerns.
Then and only then can you expect change.
I will tell you a little something about myself which i am not proud of. Before i came to Christ i was a very angry person. I was also a bigot I was angry at the fact that Employers wanted me to learn Spanish because the growing population of Latin speaking only population.
Pretty much the situation that is now happeing at your church, I was yelling and screaming all over the place hey this is America why dont they have to speak english, if i go to there country i am expected to speak there language. This is rediculouse i would yell and scream it was really bad.
Then as i read the Bible and came to Christ I realized that we are all brothers and sisters in Jesus, that he came for all that if i have any feelings like that what so ever and am walking into his house to worship i may as well not be there at all because in my heart i am harboring ill feelings towards one of his children and i have no right to do that.
I have to be of right mind and heart to worship, to recieve his word and have the seed planted in my heart, soul to bear right fruit.
It took a long time, and from time to time i still fall and trip and get upset, because at times i will still lose a job to someone who speaks another language other than English and it still gives me the slightes burn but i have to learn another language if i want to succeed that is all there is too it. I am only benefitting myself.
I no longer have those harsh feelings and I realize too that Satin was trying to steal my Grace, make me hard at heart and lose my peace in Christ.
If all else fails when you speak to your Priest then i suggest you do find another place to worship. Your relationship with God is personal, also remember that you have to love your neighbor as yourself. Try to reach out to your Latin Community and see if there cant be some type of reached compromise or working together for the better of both communities.
May the Peace and Blessing of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus be with all of you.
Then and only then can you expect change.
I will tell you a little something about myself which i am not proud of. Before i came to Christ i was a very angry person. I was also a bigot I was angry at the fact that Employers wanted me to learn Spanish because the growing population of Latin speaking only population.
Pretty much the situation that is now happeing at your church, I was yelling and screaming all over the place hey this is America why dont they have to speak english, if i go to there country i am expected to speak there language. This is rediculouse i would yell and scream it was really bad.
Then as i read the Bible and came to Christ I realized that we are all brothers and sisters in Jesus, that he came for all that if i have any feelings like that what so ever and am walking into his house to worship i may as well not be there at all because in my heart i am harboring ill feelings towards one of his children and i have no right to do that.
I have to be of right mind and heart to worship, to recieve his word and have the seed planted in my heart, soul to bear right fruit.
It took a long time, and from time to time i still fall and trip and get upset, because at times i will still lose a job to someone who speaks another language other than English and it still gives me the slightes burn but i have to learn another language if i want to succeed that is all there is too it. I am only benefitting myself.
I no longer have those harsh feelings and I realize too that Satin was trying to steal my Grace, make me hard at heart and lose my peace in Christ.
If all else fails when you speak to your Priest then i suggest you do find another place to worship. Your relationship with God is personal, also remember that you have to love your neighbor as yourself. Try to reach out to your Latin Community and see if there cant be some type of reached compromise or working together for the better of both communities.
May the Peace and Blessing of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus be with all of you.
H
hazmatdude
Guest
Hello everybody.
It’s been a couple of years since the last post on this subject and things have changed significantly especially out here in California. Are you all ready to start this thread up again?
God Bless!
It’s been a couple of years since the last post on this subject and things have changed significantly especially out here in California. Are you all ready to start this thread up again?
God Bless!
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BobP123
Guest
Why not?
From reading some of the posts here, it seems it follows an old adage: Be care for what you wish, you might get it. The people wanted and got their vernacular. Now what do they do when it’s someone else’s vernacular?
Before Vatican II, that had not been a problem.
From reading some of the posts here, it seems it follows an old adage: Be care for what you wish, you might get it. The people wanted and got their vernacular. Now what do they do when it’s someone else’s vernacular?
Before Vatican II, that had not been a problem.
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