Bible Alone?

[frangiuliano115]

What if one misinterprets scripture?

Could I ask YOU a question?

The bible was written to save forever what Jesus taught when He walked this earth. it’s not a history book and it’s not the CCC. Doctrine was developed after He died and also after the apostles died. The teaching right after Jesus’ resurrection was pretty simple and basic, just telling people how he taught and died and was resurrected and He was the true God that could get them to the reward after life.

So, what I’ve always wanted to ask is: How badly could one misinterpret scripture even if there was no magisterium just by reading it by one’s self?

I mean, protestants might feel very free with scripture, but sometimes I feel like we’re afraid of it.

Fram

 

[chero23]

Except for the Orthodox, Orientals, Syriac (sp) and any other group that claimed independence from Rome or Constantinople …if by “only” you mean" all these others too" then “only” no longer means “only”…your statement is simply not true. Why state what you know is not true?

Why did they break off?

My statement is true because that is one bible verse of many that back the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has scripture, which by the way, we wrote and put together. We have tradition, which these men went throughout the world spreading Gods word and many were killed. Plus, we have the magisterium which is guided by the Holy Spirit.

So no, I am not wrong, you want to see it as me being wrong to benefit you.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Could I ask YOU a question?

The bible was written to save forever what Jesus taught when He walked this earth. it’s not a history book and it’s not the CCC. Doctrine was developed after He died and also after the apostles died. The teaching right after Jesus’ resurrection was pretty simple and basic, just telling people how he taught and died and was resurrected and He was the true God that could get them to the reward after life.

So, what I’ve always wanted to ask is: How badly could one misinterpret scripture even if there was no magisterium just by reading it by one’s self?

I mean, protestants might feel very free with scripture, but sometimes I feel like we’re afraid of it.

Fram

Well, for one thing there are people who used scripture to justify slavery. Others handle poisonous snakes and drink poison because they interpret scripture to say that God will not allow them to be harmed by it. That is a real denomination, they are called “Snake Handlers” and members have died from their misinterpretation of scripture. Is death from misinterpreting scripture pretty bad? I can go on with a dozen more examples if you are not convinced. And those are doctrine aside. The doctrines developed from private interpretation of scripture are numerous. When one group says scripture says that “once saved always saved” and another says “No, you can lose your salvation” one is in the wrong pretty bad…

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Could I ask YOU a question?

The bible was written to save forever what Jesus taught when He walked this earth. it’s not a history book and it’s not the CCC. Doctrine was developed after He died and also after the apostles died. The teaching right after Jesus’ resurrection was pretty simple and basic, just telling people how he taught and died and was resurrected and He was the true God that could get them to the reward after life.

So, what I’ve always wanted to ask is: How badly could one misinterpret scripture even if there was no magisterium just by reading it by one’s self?

I mean, protestants might feel very free with scripture, but sometimes I feel like we’re afraid of it.

Fram

And I am certainly not afraid of scripture. I just know I am going to get a lot wrong if I try to interpret it myself. That is why I trust The Church that God gave us scripture through to interpret it.

“The Bible and Jesus is all I need” which you seem to speak of is a doctrine called “Solo scriptura” different from “Sola Scriptura” I am not saying that is what you believe in, but that is what you described if a person says “All I need is The Bible and Jesus”. They fail to realize that just like The Eunchic in The Bible, they need someone to help them understand it. And not just anyone…

 

[frangiuliano115]

Well, for one thing there are people who used scripture to justify slavery. Others handle poisonous snakes and drink poison because they interpret scripture to say that God will not allow them to be harmed by it. That is a real denomination, they are called “Snake Handlers” and members have died from their misinterpretation of scripture. Is death from misinterpreting scripture pretty bad? I can go on with a dozen more examples if you are not convinced. And those are doctrine aside.

Yes. Well, I guess weird people take their weirdness with them wherever they go.
My father read the bible from cover to cover when he was about 75 or so. When he finished i asked him what he learned from it and what he said was so crystal clear. Basically, he said that we sinned and are sinners, we need help, Jesus is that help and we’re to follow Him and He will save us. He said more but I can’t remember right now.

I get your point too. It seems like the Holy Spirit would have to be present. I doubt He’s spending any time with the snake handlers!

The whole story of lifting up the snake in the desert Sinai is a beautiful analogy of Jesus.
If you were bitten and looked upon the snake that was lifted up, God would save you. Jesus was also lifted up - on the cross.

Fran

 

[TonyBS]

The passage says that we are to put our trust in HIM.

I’m catholic and have been here at CAF since July. I’m starting to wonder what we put our faith in. Jesus or doctrine?

You’re going to answer both. It can’t be both. I’m either trusting the Lord to get me to heaven or I’m trusting in my understanding of doctrine - which is equivalent to trusting in myself.

That indeed is a very important question and yes, the answer is in Him.

The key to what is from Him, it that God Doeth as He Willeth and is explained within this passage from the Baha’i Writings; (Bold added by me)

"The virtues and attributes pertaining unto God are all evident and manifest, and have been mentioned and described in all the heavenly Books. Among them are trustworthiness, truthfulness, purity of heart while communing with God, forbearance, resignation to whatever the Almighty hath decreed, contentment with the things His Will hath provided, patience, nay, thankfulness in the midst of tribulation, and complete reliance, in all circumstances, upon Him. These rank, according to the estimate of God, among the highest and most laudable of all acts. All other acts are, and will ever remain, secondary and subordinate unto them….

The spirit that animateth the human heart is the knowledge of God, and its truest adorning is the recognition of the truth that ****“He doeth whatsoever He willeth, and ordaineth that which He pleaseth.” ****Its raiment is the fear of God, and its perfection steadfastness in His Faith. Thus God instructeth whosoever seeketh Him. He, verily, loveth the one that turneth towards Him. There is none other God but Him, the Forgiving, the Most Bountiful. All praise be to God, the Lord of all worlds". reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-134.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[JohnGerard]

So, what I’ve always wanted to ask is: How badly could one misinterpret scripture even if there was no magisterium just by reading it by one’s self?

I mean, protestants might feel very free with scripture, but sometimes I feel like we’re afraid of it.

Fram

Hey Fran,

My two cents: I think we could misinterpret scripture to the point of bringing about our own destruction (whatever that may mean). I don’t know. But it doesn’t sound good:

2 Peter 3:16: “…there are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

So of course we pray to understand scripture as we read it. And we don’t need to be afraid of that BUT…it is probably wise to do so cautiously.

Well, I’m glad we had this little exchange. It’s really helped me to understand. I started feeling like, Gosh why is this so intimidating? So thanks for asking and thanks for listening.

And I thank you for the conversation tonight as well. I enjoyed it, and I agree that conversations via a forum such as this can be difficult and frustrating. It can be a hard way to understand people when we are limited to the words we see only with nothing else. (Well, other than the emoticons, and they help some…but not like an actual face-to-face.)

Thanks again.

I hope your pizza was good!

John

 

[SalusaSecondus]

And I am certainly not afraid of scripture. I just know I am going to get a lot wrong if I try to interpret it myself. That is why I trust The Church that God gave us scripture through to interpret it.

How many verses has your church officially interpreted and where can I read the list of infallibly interpreted verses?

 

[guanophore]

Private interpretation is dangerous?

It certainly has the potential to be, which is why the Church discouraged it for so long. The Church wanted to prevent the fragmentation that now exists.

Anyone who reads and prays the scripture may enjoy the gift of the Holy Spirit revealing things to them about how it pertains to them personally (privately). But if the Scriptures are interpreted privately outside the mind of the Church, dangerous results can occur.

1. When you read the bible, you’re supposed to hope for private interpretation. The bible speaks to us personally. It’s one way that God can speak to you. Did you know that two people could read the same verse and come up with two different ideas? This is intimidating to you? I guess that’s why you need the church to explain everything - you don’t trust yourself.

I agree that we should approach the Scriptures with the expectation that God will speak to us personally, but there is no need to be insulting to others. Assuming that not wanting divisions in the body of Christ amounts to “intimidating” is quite a leap!

It is also insulting to tell someone " I guess that’s why you need the church to explain everything - you don’t trust yourself". On the contrary, we are to trust the Church, who has the mind of Christ. This does not mean we do not trust ourselves, but that we all have the capacity to get lost.

This does NOT mean that the church should not have an official exegesis of the verses and book in general.

I don’t think anyone was suggesting this. Reading the Scripture with the mind of the Church protects us from falling into heresies and other “dangerous” results.

2.  Have you ever heard of Augustine? Acquinas? Avila? John of the Cross?

Would you say they had private interpretations and revelations? Where did they get their interpretations from? You know, the ones posters here quote ad infinitum. I have to keep my personal revelations and interpretations to myself - but they didn’t.

Some of your personal interpretations seem to contradict the Teaching of the Church, which is problematic here on CAF because you have stated that you are a Catholic Catechist. Having responsibility for teaching the faith means you are held to a higher standard.

If I were intelligent enough and had a PhD in scripture and theology maybe I could write a book too.  Would it be right?

You don’t need a Ph.D to write a book Fran. Go right ahead!

If you are writing about your personal revelations and interpretations, then “right” is not required. People write books every day about their ideas. :yup:

The Doctors of the Church had their material sifted and measured by the Magesterium before it was recommended to the faithful. If you wish your book to be offered for guidance on that same level, you will have to submit to the same process.

The bible was written to save forever what Jesus taught when He walked this earth. it’s not a history book and it’s not the CCC. Doctrine was developed after He died and also after the apostles died.

I think your history is a bit out of order, Fran. Jesus committed His whole message to the Church before a word of the NT was ever written. “Doctrine” = Teachings of Jesus.

Doctrine has been “developed” after He and the Apostles died, but the deposit of faith does not change.

The NT reflects the faith that was committed to the Church. Our faith is not extracted from it. We are not “people of the book”. Our faith comes to us from Christ, through the Apostles.

The teaching right after Jesus’ resurrection was pretty simple and basic, just telling people how he taught and died and was resurrected and He was the true God that could get them to the reward after life.

I am not sure how you came up with such a simplistic view, Fran, but there is much more to it than this. The reason it was called The Way is because it encompassed a whole way of life. Christianity came out of Judaism, and the values and world view that belonged to the Jews was absorbed by the Christians.

I will agree that our 2000 year history has encountered many more complications, but the New Testament clearly teaches an entire lifestyle to which people are expected to commit themselves.

So, what I’ve always wanted to ask is: How badly could one misinterpret scripture even if there was no magisterium just by reading it by one’s self?

One only need to investigate or sojourn among our separated brethren to see this.

Or study the heresies of the early church, especially Arianism and Gnosticism.

I mean, protestants might feel very free with scripture, but sometimes I feel like we’re afraid of it.

I agree, there is no need to be afraid, but danger does exist. Only keeping with the mind of the Church can protect us from that danger.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I have a question for any Protestant, in the hopes to clarify the topic. Is there ever a time when an individual should not trust their private judgement of scripture?

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

How many verses has your church officially interpreted and where can I read the list of infallibly interpreted verses?

Oh, I believe it is very few. I cant remember a exact number. If you decide to look it up, let me know. I will trust The Church that Jesus founded and what The Church that God used to give us The Bible teaches from Scripture any day over one of the thousands of man made denominations. Maybe not a lot has been declared infallibly, but I look to The wise Grandfather that has actually been around since the beginning, for its insight on scripture over the smart alec teenager denominations that I use to be affiliated with who, much like a lot of teenagers, think they are wiser than the old grandfather.

P.S my question was not answered in my last post…

 

[Michael68]

How many verses has your church officially interpreted and where can I read the list of infallibly interpreted verses?

Try the Catachism of the Catholic Church.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Try the Catachism of the Catholic Church.

Dang… and I read that book cover to cover

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by frangiuliano115 View Post
The passage says that we are to put our trust in HIM.

I’m catholic and have been here at CAF since July. I’m starting to wonder what we put our faith in. Jesus or doctrine?

You’re going to answer both. It can’t be both. I’m either trusting the Lord to get me to heaven or I’m trusting in my understanding of doctrine - which is equivalent to trusting in myself.

=JohnGerard; Hey Fran.

Others may not, but you are right…I’m gonna answer both.

Why can’t we trust the Lord to get us to Heaven by trusting that He left us with correct doctrine and His Church to guide us? Why do you think it is either trust in the Lord or trust in myself?

I mean, of course we must place our faith/belief in Christ…we cannot be saved without that. But doesn’t that faith have an element of obedience to it as well?

Matthew 28:19-20: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me…go therefore…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you;…”

Hebrews 5:9: “…and being made perfect He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him…”

It seems like to observe what He commands and to obey Him is to live as He taught…which is taught to us as…doctrine.

Isn’t it?

Orthodoxy (right teaching) and orthopraxy (right practice) are given to us by His Church. To trust in those is to trust in Him. Isn’t it?

** frangiuliano115**

Here my friend is where you’re missing the Bark of PETER

You’re desire to separate Christ Church Mt. 10: 1-8; Mt. 16:15-19; John 17: 16-20 …
"They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.** And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.** [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; & Mt. 28: 16-20

You desire to separate one from the other; but they are inseparable Mt. 16: 19

And I will give to YOU [ALL OF] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth,** it shall be loosed also in heaven**

What this power and authority to “Bind and to Loose” meant at that time; in that location **was independent and TOTAL Power and Authority of Governance **

Walled in cites as was Jerusalem, usually had a king. The king would commonly defer all power of local governance to a Visar; who actually HAD and HELD the key’s to the Gates of thee City. He was charged with locking them at night and opening them in thr A.M. for commerce.

That is why Christ choose those VERY precise and easy [for THEM] to understand words. Peter was & is Christ Visar.

Our Blessed Lord Knew that He would soon die and return to heaven. In Mt. 28:19-20; the last 2 verses of Matthews Gospel Christ COMMANDS Peter and through Peter the Apostles and thier successor to Go and TEACH the entire WORLD ALL that I have commanded & taught] to YOU!"

READ the last two verses in John chapters 20 & 21 and you’ll discover NOT everything is included in the bible.

What your missing friend is humble obedience. We cannot tell God how He is to save us; no, we MUST listen to His Voice on earth; His Church Magerterium; and then; say THANK you Lord; I’m listening:thumbsup: Amen!

God Bless you!

JohnGerard;

GREAT post! Thanks,

Patrick

 

[SalusaSecondus]

Try the Catachism of the Catholic Church.

The current Catechism contains all the verses that you church has interpreted infallibly? Which paragraphs?

 

[adamhovey1988]

Can any Protestant show one scripture that says we are to follow the bible alone as final authority?

A lot of folks use 2 Timothy 3:16, but I don’t see how one can infer sola scriptura from that

 

[Cathoholic]

JonNC (parenthetical addition mine). You asked me:

…how do you get universal ordinary and immediate jurisdiction over the entire Church on Earth from this (Matthew 16)?

But JonNC.

• The thread concerns the “Bible Alone”.
• My question (here) concerned eazyduzit’s quote of Pr.30:5,6 (as alleged support for “Bible Alone”).
• And I didn’t claim to “get universal ordinary and immediate jurisdiction over the entire Church on Earth” from Matthew 16 alone.

(That being said, I would be happy to participate in a thread concerning the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. I think it is a very interesting subject.)

 

[guanophore]

The current Catechism contains all the verses that you church has interpreted infallibly? Which paragraphs?

I don’t think so.

I did not think your question was serious, so I did not offer a reply. The Apostles’ taught the Gospel message as a whole garment. Interpreting individual verses takes it one thread at a time, and is conducive to unravelling.

ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=308430&language=en

 

[JonNC]

I have a question for any Protestant, in the hopes to clarify the topic. Is there ever a time when an individual should not trust their private judgement of scripture?

From a Lutheran POV, yes, when the issue involves doctrine.

Jon

 

[frangiuliano115]

** frangiuliano115**

Here my friend is where you’re missing the Bark of PETER

You’re desire to separate Christ Church Mt. 10: 1-8; Mt. 16:15-19; John 17: 16-20 …
"They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.** And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.** [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; & Mt. 28: 16-20

You desire to separate one from the other; but they are inseparable Mt. 16: 19

And I will give to YOU [ALL OF] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth,** it shall be loosed also in heaven**

What this power and authority to “Bind and to Loose” meant at that time; in that location **was independent and TOTAL Power and Authority of Governance **

Walled in cites as was Jerusalem, usually had a king. The king would commonly defer all power of local governance to a Visar; who actually HAD and HELD the key’s to the Gates of thee City. He was charged with locking them at night and opening them in thr A.M. for commerce.

That is why Christ choose those VERY precise and easy [for THEM] to understand words. Peter was & is Christ Visar.

Our Blessed Lord Knew that He would soon die and return to heaven. In Mt. 28:19-20; the last 2 verses of Matthews Gospel Christ COMMANDS Peter and through Peter the Apostles and thier successor to Go and TEACH the entire WORLD ALL that I have commanded & taught] to YOU!"

READ the last two verses in John chapters 20 & 21 and you’ll discover NOT everything is included in the bible.

What your missing friend is humble obedience. We cannot tell God how He is to save us; no, we MUST listen to His Voice on earth; His Church Magerterium; and then; say THANK you Lord; I’m listening:thumbsup: Amen!

God Bless you!

JohnGerard;

GREAT post! Thanks,

Patrick

PJM

I’m here to say you have nothing to teach me.
I’m here to say I’m much more humble than you are.
I’m here to say I know Who saves me and I know it’s not the church. (small c)

The last two verses of John. Very good.

How about the verses in Revelation that say NOT TO ADD ANYTHING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN??

I think that was John too.

Calm down a bit!

Fran