Bible Alone?

[JonNC]

What I have learned on CAF from JonNC and other passionate Lutherans is that Catholics are much closer to them theologically and practically than to most of Protesantism.

I think so, too.

Jon

 

[Duane1966]

Could you share??

Sure. This passage from Dave Armstrong’s website:

James 2 is usually applied by Protestants to sanctification, but that is not what the passage says. It mentions** “justified” (dikaioo: Strong’s word #1344) three times (2:21, 24-25): the same Greek word used in Romans 4:2, as well as 2:13; 3:20, 24, 28; 5:1, 9; 8:30; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Galatians 2:16-17; 3:11, 24; 5:4; and Titus 3:7. If James actually meant sanctification, on the other hand, he could have used one of two Greek words ( hagiazo / hagiasmos: Strong’s #37-38) that appear (together) 38 times in the New Testament (the majority of times by Paul himself).**

Obviously I was wrong on my statement that Paul uses the word for sanctification 38 times.

 

[rfournier103]

The only authority between 33 and 393 is too long of a period.

Let’s take 33 to about 90.

Initially the only authority were the apostles. And of the apostles I’d say that Peter and Timothy and Paul (adopted) were the most important. Peter and Paul the top. I do believe it ended up being Paul since he wrote most of the N.T. or a good part of.

But Jesus gave the keys to Peter. He was strong and resilient and fought the good fight till the end. But so did Paul and also all the rest, they all died for what they believed to be true.

Then they started to write things down. The letters we shared. Too bad there was no internet back then - it took a long time for news to get around.

Then the letters got put together into a bible.

There were always bishops. Peter was the first, and then we decided to call them Popes.

This is why we are an apostolic church. We believe in the authority of the apostles. I think the first thing I learned in theology is that we place our trust in the apostles. If I can’t trust them, what am I basing my trust on? I wasn’t there to see the resurrection…

Was that a trick question??


Fran

Not a trick question.

The thinking behind it was that if the Bible alone is the “authority”, then what or who was the authority PRIOR to that?

I always thought the answer was the Church (the ‘pillar and ground of Truth’).

Of course, the Church answers to God

 

[Duane1966]

TWO OF TWO

…

Fran

I think Catholic.com says it best.

Justification and Sanctification

We’ve mentioned that we need sanctifying grace in our souls if we’re to be equipped for heaven. Another way of saying this is that we need to be justified. “But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).

The Protestant misunderstanding of justification lies in its claim that justification is merely a forensic (i.e., purely declaratory) legal declaration by God that the sinner is now “justified.” If you “accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior,” he declares you justified, though he doesn’t really make you justified or sanctified; your soul is in the same state as it was before; but you’re eligible for heaven.

A person is expected thereafter to undergo sanctification (don’t make the mistake of thinking Protestants say sanctification is unimportant), but the degree of sanctification achieved is, ultimately, immaterial to the question of whether you’ll get to heaven. You will, since you’re justified; and justification as a purely legal declaration is what counts. Unfortunately, this scheme is a legal fiction. It amounts to God telling an untruth by saying the sinner has been justified, while all along he knows that the sinner is not really justified, but is only covered under the “cloak” of Christ’s righteousness. But, what God declares, he does. “o shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it” (Is. 55:11). So, when God declares you justified, he makes you justified. Any justification that is not woven together with sanctification is no justification at all.

**The Bible’s teaching on justification is much more nuanced. Paul indicates that there is a real transformation which occurs in justification, that it is not just a change in legal status. **This is seen, for example, in Romans 6:7, which every standard translation—Protestant ones included—renders as “For he who has died is freed from sin” (or a close variant).

Paul is obviously speaking about being freed from sin in an experiential sense, for this is the passage where he is at pains to stress the fact that we have made a decisive break with sin that must be reflected in our behavior: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” (Rom. 6:1-2). “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness” (6:12-13).

The context here is what Protestants call sanctification, the process of being made holy. Sanctification is the sense in which we are said to be “freed from sin” in this passage. Yet in the Greek text, what is actually said is “he who has died has been justified from sin.” The term in Greek (dikaioo) is the word for being justified, yet the context indicates sanctification, which is why every standard translation renders the word “freed” rather than “justified.” This shows that, **in Paul’s mind, justification involves a real transformation, a real, experiential freeing from sin, not just a change of legal status. And it shows that, the way he uses terms, there is not the rigid wall between justification and sanctification **that Protestants imagine.

According to Scripture, ** Both can be spoken of as past-time events, as Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 6:11: “But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” Sanctification is also a present, ongoing process, as the author of Hebrews notes: “For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (Heb. 10:14). **In regard to justification also being an on-going process, compare Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6 with both Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:1-4 and James 2:21-23; Genesis 22:1-18. In these passages, Abraham’s justification is advanced ****on three separate occasions.

 

[Duane1966]

No where will one find in Lutheranism even a speck of belief that works justify, or even add to justification.

JonAnd that is why I reject Lutheranism. From calledtocommunion’s website:

What makes this difficult to understand, from a Protestant point of view, is that in Catholic theology there is a distinction between justification and an increase in justification. There is no such distinction in Protestant theologies, and for that reason Protestants not infrequently treat Catholic statements about the increase in justification as though they are about justification itself.

Justification is defined by the Council of Trent as “translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.” (Trent VI.4)1 Justification takes place through the sacrament of baptism, and then, if a person falls into mortal sin, through the sacrament of penance. At the instant of justification, the person receives sanctifying grace and the theological (supernatural) virtues of faith, hope and charity (agape). This does not mean that these cannot be received prior to the actual reception of the sacrament of baptism. Even then, however, they come through the sacrament, and anticipate its reception.

**An increase in justification is not the same thing as justification. **An increase in justification is not the translation from a state in which one is deprived of sanctifying grace to a state in which one has sanctifying grace. An increase in justification is an increase in sanctifying grace from a condition in which one already has sanctifying grace. **This is what St. Peter means in exhorting believers to grow in grace.(2 Pet 3:18) **An increase in justification is not receiving sanctifying grace where there is none, but a movement of growth from grace to more grace, and thus a growth in conformity to the likeness of Christ, by an increase in the capacity of our participation in the divine nature. (2 Pet 1:4)

The reason this distinction between justification and its increase is important for understanding the Catholic doctrine concerning justification is that although a person can and should prepare for justification (Trent VI.6), he cannot merit justification by any works. But, a person who is already justified and in a state of grace, can merit an increase in justification by doing good works out of love (agape) for God. Among these good works are works in keeping with the moral law, done out of love (agape) for God. God rewards our works done in agape by increasing our capacity to participate in His divine nature, and thus by increasing our participation in His agape. He Himself is our reward, and growth in grace is growth in Him, a reward we receive already in this present life, to be multiplied abundantly in the life to come.

 

[JonNC]

And that is why I reject Lutheranism. From calledtocommunion’s website:

That’s fine, just as long as you understand what we mean by sola fide. Take note, however, that what your link refers to as “increase in justification is an increase in sanctifying grace from a condition in which one already has sanctifying grace”, we refer to as Sanctification.

The first issue, ISTM, is to understand what each other means. What I have learned over the years, including those spent at CAF, is that when a Catholic speaks of “faith and works”, they are not talking about work righteousness. Lutherans, when speaking of faith alone, do not mean an exclusion of the necessity of works.

We move on from there.

Jon

 

[Duane1966]

From Robert Sungenis: Part 1

. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

James 2:24 – the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, nowhere in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone according to Scripture. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Heb 11:6 – faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 – the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.

John 3:36; Rom 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor 9:13; 1 Thess 1:3; 2 Thess 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb 5:9; cf. Rev 3:10; Exod 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

2 Cor 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.

2 Cor 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.

Gal 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph 3:17; 1 Thess 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 1:22-25 – it’s the “doers” who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom 2:13.

James 2:17,26 – James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification **because good works achieve and increase our justification **before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:19 – even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.

James 2:20 – do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren. Good works in God’s grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”

James 2:22 – faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.

James 4:17 – in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.

James 2:15-17 – here are the examples of the “works” to which James is referring – corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).

James 1:27 – another example of “works” is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.

James 2:25 – another example of “works” is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.

Joshua 2:9-11 – Rahab’s fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25,** Rahab alone acted and was saved.** This is faith in action.

 

[Duane1966]

part II.

James 2:18 – to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, Protestants argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is “before men” and not “before God.” Scripture disproves their claim.

James 2:14 – James asks, “Can faith save him?” Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.

James 2:19 – also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.

James 2:21 – James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham’s justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.
.
Acts 10:35 – Peter teaches that anyone who fears the Lord and does what is right is acceptable to Him. It is both fear and works, not fear alone.

Rom 2:7,10 – to those who by patience and good works will be granted glory and honor and peace from the Lord.

Rom 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal 6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom 3:20,28; Gal 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Rom 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom 14:10-12; 1 Cor 3:12-17; and 2 Cor 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.”** Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.**

Rom 6:16 – obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good “work,” an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.

2 Cor 9:8 – Paul teaches that God will bless us so that we may provide in abundance for “every good work.” Good works are encouraged to complete our faith

Eph 6:8 – whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.

Phil 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.” Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:8 – good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.” As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done” refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration” in reference to baptism saves (cf. 1 Peter 3:21), which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation” and “works of grace.”

1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 – shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.

**Rev 22:11-12 – he who is righteous [justified], let him be righteous [justified] still [more]; **he who is holy, let him be holy still…and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

 

[In_His_Grace]

I never said works do not play apart. What we teach is that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in the saving work of Christ alone. And while we know that the sole means of accessing Justification is by faith alone, we also know that a saving faith, a true faith, is a faith that works through love.
From here, Duane, I have a question. When I was 15, after three years of catechetical class, I was confirmed. At that confirmation, kneeling before the altar, the pastor placed his hands on my head, and said:

Is this prayer speaking of justification?

These words have stuck with me all of my life. They remind me of the grace I have already received in Baptism, 15 years before that event, and the faith that was kindled and grew from then until today. I think, frankly, that the idea of a once-event justification doesn’t fit me. My Justification has strengthened (can’t think of a word that actually fits) as my faith has grown, but not because of anything I have done, or any good work I have performed. My faith has grown and strengthened because of grace, grace found in word and sacrament, the means of grace.
While never well, I have responded to that grace by striving, and often failing, to live a more godly life, to help my neighbor, and share His grace with others when I can. I do so out of joyful thanksgiving, not out of a feeling of obligation. And when I fail, I have the means of grace to return to, to strengthen me again, so I can keep trying to “work out my salvation in fear and trembling.”
All of this, ISTM, adds nothing to my justification, which is a gift of God by grace. Instead, the good works that I do are the result of the Spirit’s sanctifying work in me. Sanctification. In that Confirmation prayer above, the prayers asks God to, " renew and increase … the gift of the Holy Spirit". It is the Spirit working in us that guides us to good works, guides us to confess and receive absolution, and the Eucharist when we falter, as the prayer says, “to your strengthening in faith, to your growth in grace, to your patience in suffering.” And in the end, “to the blessed hope of everlasting life.”

No where will one find in Lutheranism even a speck of belief that works justify, or even add to justification. Similarly, no where will one find in Lutheranism a rejection of the necessity of good works (love and charity), or the absence of hope. "Faith, hope, and love, these three abide, and the greatest of these is love. " Why is love the greatest if faith justifies? My own experience is that God’s grace is because of His love for us, and our response is love towards our fellow man. Faith has no purpose, no meaning, if there is not love. In grace and faith, through the power of the Holy Spirit, love does the great work of His kingdom.

Luther is quoted as saying, **There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.
**

Amen.

Jon

Excellent and thank you JonNC.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

I never said works do not play apart. What we teach is that justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in the saving work of Christ alone. And while we know that the sole means of accessing Justification is by faith alone, we also know that a saving faith, a true faith, is a faith that works through love.
From here, Duane, I have a question. When I was 15, after three years of catechetical class, I was confirmed. At that confirmation, kneeling before the altar, the pastor placed his hands on my head, and said:

Is this prayer speaking of justification?

These words have stuck with me all of my life. They remind me of the grace I have already received in Baptism, 15 years before that event, and the faith that was kindled and grew from then until today. I think, frankly, that the idea of a once-event justification doesn’t fit me. My Justification has strengthened (can’t think of a word that actually fits) as my faith has grown, but not because of anything I have done, or any good work I have performed. My faith has grown and strengthened because of grace, grace found in word and sacrament, the means of grace.
While never well, I have responded to that grace by striving, and often failing, to live a more godly life, to help my neighbor, and share His grace with others when I can. I do so out of joyful thanksgiving, not out of a feeling of obligation. And when I fail, I have the means of grace to return to, to strengthen me again, so I can keep trying to “work out my salvation in fear and trembling.”
All of this, ISTM, adds nothing to my justification, which is a gift of God by grace. Instead, the good works that I do are the result of the Spirit’s sanctifying work in me. Sanctification. In that Confirmation prayer above, the prayers asks God to, " renew and increase … the gift of the Holy Spirit". It is the Spirit working in us that guides us to good works, guides us to confess and receive absolution, and the Eucharist when we falter, as the prayer says, “to your strengthening in faith, to your growth in grace, to your patience in suffering.” And in the end, “to the blessed hope of everlasting life.”

No where will one find in Lutheranism even a speck of belief that works justify, or even add to justification. Similarly, no where will one find in Lutheranism a rejection of the necessity of good works (love and charity), or the absence of hope. "Faith, hope, and love, these three abide, and the greatest of these is love. " Why is love the greatest if faith justifies? My own experience is that God’s grace is because of His love for us, and our response is love towards our fellow man. Faith has no purpose, no meaning, if there is not love. In grace and faith, through the power of the Holy Spirit, love does the great work of His kingdom.

Luther is quoted as saying, **There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.
**

Amen.

Jon

Well said my friend

 

[guanophore]

From Robert Sungenis: Part 1

I think you are preaching to the choir, Duane. You and JonNC agree on the importance of works in being a disciple of Christ. There may be some semantics issues, but otherwise, the concepts are equally regarded on both sides.

 

[frangiuliano115]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[frangiuliano115]

Sure. This passage from Dave Armstrong’s website: Obviously I was wrong on my statement that Paul uses the word for sanctification 38 times.

Thanks Duane1966. Will be looking into this tomorrow.

I’m ending the discussion on Justfcn and Sandtfcn because we basically agree but are using different terminology (I have to use mine for my own purposes) but I spent a little time researching the two and have found the following link good for justfcn:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

But the best I could do, except for the CCC, for sanctfcn is in Lumen Gentium no’s 39, 40 and 41.

It does seem that protestantism divides the two, although, as we’ve said you can’t really have one without the other. I’m having some difficulty in understanding how they divide it and how I explain it to newcomers to learning but the nuance is too small and I really can’t spend a lot of time on this. I just know that justifictn is a one time occurrence and santifctn is progressive. But, again, you cannot have one without the other.

Nuff of that!

Fran

 

[JonNC]

From Robert Sungenis: Part 1

I see your Sungenis, and raise you an Akin

jimmyakin.com/library/justification-by-faith-alone

In part;

One will note, in the definitions of the virtues offered above, the similarity between hope and the way Protestants normally define “faith”; that is, as an unconditional “placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.” The definition Protestants normally give to “faith” is the definition Catholics use for “hope.”

However, the Protestant idea of faith by no means excludes what Catholics refer to as faith, since every Evangelical would (or should) say that a person with saving faith will believe whatever God says because God is absolutely truthful and incapable of making an error. Thus the Protestant concept of faith normally includes both the Catholic concept of faith and the Catholic concept of hope.

Thus if a Protestant further specifies that saving faith is a faith which “works by charity” then the two soteriological slogans become equivalents. The reason is that a faith which works by charity is a faith which produces acts of love. But a faith which produces acts of love is a faith which includes the virtue of charity, the virtue of charity is the thing that enables us to perform acts of supernatural love in the first place. So a Protestant who says saving faith is a faith which works by charity, as per Galatians 5:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), is saying the same thing as a Catholic when a Catholic says that we are saved by faith, hope, and charity.

We may put the relationship between the two concepts as follows:

Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity

The three theological virtues of Catholic theology are thus summed up in the (good) Protestant’s idea of the virtue of faith. And the Protestant slogan “salvation by faith alone” becomes the Catholic slogan “salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone).”

This was recognized a few years ago in The Church’s Confession of Faith: A Catholic Catechism for Adults, put out by the German Conference of Bishops, which stated:

Catholic doctrine . . . says that only a faith alive in graciously bestowed love can justify. Having “mere” faith without love, merely considering something true, does not justify us. But if one understands faith in the full and comprehensive biblical sense, then faith includes conversion, hope, and lovegood Catholic sense. According to Catholic doctrine, faith encompasses both trusting in God on the basis of his mercifulness proved in Jesus Christ and confessing the salvific work of God through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. Yet this faith is never alone. It includes other acts

Jon

 

[guanophore]

I see your Sungenis, and raise you an Akin

jimmyakin.com/library/justification-by-faith-alone

In part;

Jon

I love it!

 

[Duane1966]

I think you are preaching to the choir, Duane. You and JonNC agree on the importance of works in being a disciple of Christ. There may be some semantics issues, but otherwise, the concepts are equally regarded on both sides.

I may be preachin’ to the choir, but they sho ain’t gettin’ it.

 

[Duane1966]

My Justification has strengthened (can’t think of a word that actually fits) as my faith has grown, but not because of anything I have done, or any good work I have performed. My faith has grown and strengthened because of grace, grace found in word and sacrament, the means of grace.

So God did not pour more grace in your heart from any good work that you might have done, thereby strengthening your faith?

While never well, I have responded to that grace by striving, and often failing, to live a more godly life, to help my neighbor, and share His grace with others when I can. I do so out of joyful thanksgiving, not out of a feeling of obligation.

So, as a Christian, you do not feel obligated to help your brother in need? I too do them in joyful thanksgiving, but I definitely feel obligated to my neighbor, after all, I am my brother’s keeper.

No where will one find in Lutheranism even a speck of belief that works justify, or even add to justification.

Jon, if works do not increase our justification, then in reality it does not matter whether we do them or not. If works have no bearing on justification, lack of them has no bearing either. In your paradigm, once justified, your good to go, unless one commits Apostasy.

Here is my dilemma Jon. One cannot be saved without being justified. Under your paradigm, works cannot increase our justification. Then it stands to reason that lack of them cannot decrease our justification either. But you have said they are essential. Why? They cannot increase or decrease our justification, according to Lutheranism, then how can they be essential for our salvation?

And yet Jesus in the sheep and the goats quite specifically ties works to salvation, so they must affect our justification.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

So God did not pour more grace in your heart from any good work that you might have done, thereby strengthening your faith?
So, as a Christian, you do not feel obligated to help your brother in need? I too do them in joyful thanksgiving, but I definitely feel obligated to my neighbor, after all, I am my brother’s keeper.

Jon, if works do not increase our justification, then in reality it does not matter whether we do them or not. If works have no bearing on justification, lack of them has no bearing either. In your paradigm, once justified, your good to go, unless one commits Apostasy.

Here is my dilemma Jon. One cannot be saved without being justified. Under your paradigm, works cannot increase our justification. Then it stands to reason that lack of them cannot decrease our justification either. But you have said they are essential. Why? They cannot increase or decrease our justification, according to Lutheranism, then how can they be essential for our salvation?

And yet Jesus in the sheep and the goats quite specifically ties works to salvation, so they must affect our justification.

Ridiculous aurgument , it does matter whether we do works because Christ commanded them , they just don’t justify , faith is living , works are the byproduct , if there is no byproduct or evidence , then your faith is not real , and a lifestyle of unrepentant sin can destroy faith .

And Why are we debating this on a bible thread

 

[frangiuliano115]

Can this be why terms are important?

Duane is talking about sanctification and calling it justification.
JonC is talking about justification.

Works increase sanctification.

Nothing can increase justification.
But we insist on calling everything justification so how to distinguish?
Duane is speaking of the second justification which is the same as sanctification.

You’re both saying the same thing using different words!

 

[Duane1966]

Can this be why terms are important?

Duane is talking about sanctification and calling it justification.
JonC is talking about justification.

Works increase sanctification.

Nothing can increase justification.
But we insist on calling everything justification so how to distinguish?
Duane is speaking of the second justification which is the same as sanctification.

You’re both saying the same thing using different words!

Wrong Fran, which is why the two are inseparable. Just as a person grows in holiness, the degrees of a person’s justification changes. That is why we say that justification is past, present, and future, and why the Catholic Church specifically says in Trent that justification can increase.

Let’s say I climb Mount Justification, where Jesus is at the top. Do I spend my whole life after I start the climb near the base, or do I actually make progress and come closer to Jesus, conforming myself more to him? In my journey without a doubt, my degrees of justification can change.