Bible and Qu'ran: Let's settle this!

[Laurence_of_PA]

I wrote that I suspected you started this thread with the motive of “proving” that both the bible and the Q’uran were wicked.

And rather than actually *dignify *your petty sophostry, I responded the same way I would if my neighbor accused me of shooting Kennedy:

Quick Robin…the Batmobile! He caught me [me who is Kennedy’s assassinator]!

But WAIT! Kennedy…was a Catholic!

(Hint Hint: here’s another conspiracy for you to run with )

I don’t doubt that you believe wickedness exists. What I doubt is your ability to prove that it exists using agnostic/athiestic logic, because without God as the standard, everything is relative.

Personally, I rely on my own reasoning powers to determine what is right and wrong (as I’m sure you do…it’s not like you pull a Catechism out of your pants whenever a wallet appears on the ground ).

However, since most of the world feel they need a God to guide them in the right direction, I’m completely fine if religion continues until eternity to serve as a source of moral standards, so long as such religions are reasonable with their moral systems (*human *reason, mind you).

Of course, I’d hate for a perfectly half-dead Qur’an/Islam thread to resurrect in the form of an annoying Atheists/Agnostics vs. Theists Ultimate Fighting Championship! (feel free to repeat the last sentence with a Schwarzeneger accent)

 

[St_Aloysius]

know my accusation might seem a bit harsh, but there have been other Muslims come on here, claim to be Christian in an attempt to spread the word of the quran.
I myself have read some of it, and dont find it poetic at all.
I think once you read the bible, and have the truth revealed to you, its hard to think the quran would be… in your words…

“Qur’an is a beautiful, poetic religious text that tells of a God “Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” and his interactions with his creation, his concern for the poor, and his desire for his people to act righteously.”

And not think this smells of a Muslim trying to inspire us to read it.
So, if i have jumped to conclusions, im sorry, but if i havent, well i hope you know we will never think the quran is the word of God.

God bless
Dolphinlove

I know there are “moles,” but the fact that a Catholic upholding the literary intergrity of a religious text like the Qur’an is met with such suspicion strikes me as a little sad. I love apocryphal works like the Prayer of Manasseh or 3 Maccabees or the Protoevangelion of James, etc., and would defend them as beautiful pieces of Christian tradition. Likewise, I think any Arabian scholar (regardless of religion) would tell you that the Qur’an is a very exemplary poetic work.

C.S. Lewis, in his book The Horse and His Boy, even conceded this, saying that the Christian scriptures were strange and different to the Arabian people because, instead of being drenched in poetry, they were tales of epic wars and love. This is what I like about Scripture: It presents God’s love for humanity as an unfolding story.

There is no law whatsoever that prohibits a Christian from appreciating various religious works. In my room, I have the Catechism prominently displayed besides a picture of Our Lady of Sorrows, on my desk an awesome NRSV-CE Bible (out of which I’m currently rereading Torah, or at least the Exodus from Egypt account), my copy of the Qur’an, and a JPS translation of the Tanakh. I will probably later read the Vedas and other works, and unless one can tell me why this is sinful, I see no reason not to… One reason I left the Baptist Church is because they feared that all religions (including Catholicism) other than their own were an infinite series of lies that Christians, as a matter of virtue, should avoid.

I just think we can benefit as Christians from hearing others out and discerning for yourself, according to the Church’s teaching, what to retain and what to discard. Do I believe “Allah has no son”? No! Of course not! But do I believe he is “Merciful” and “Gracious,” “the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds”? Yup. Sounds very much in line with what the Bible teaches. I think as Catholics we can benefit from this emphasis.

And in any case, were I a Muslim, I would be considered rather impious, I think, as I don’t type pbuh next to Muhammad’s name as a rule of conduct. You may also infer that I am not Jewish because I type “God.”

I’m just a (fairly) new Catholic who came from a fundamentalist background and is not looking to return to such a line of thinking anytime soon. I come from a conservative household in a conservative state (TN) and so forgive me for acting somewhat “liberally” in your view at times. I assure you, I’m quite orthodox… deep down. Ha, ha.

Peace, my accusatory friends!

 

[Reuben_J]

And in any case, were I a Muslim, I would be considered rather impious, I think, as I don’t type pbuh next to Muhammad’s name as a rule of conduct. You may also infer that I am not Jewish because I type “God.”

I’m just a (fairly) new Catholic who came from a fundamentalist background and is not looking to return to such a line of thinking anytime soon. I come from a conservative household in a conservative state (TN) and so forgive me for acting somewhat “liberally” in your view at times. I assure you, I’m quite orthodox… deep down. Ha, ha.

Peace, my accusatory friends!

How sad that you should defend yourself as a Catholic. Not that it is anymore important whether you are an impersonator or not. You heard our views. But rather how you carry yourself as a Catholic.

It is quite easy to pick up non-Catholic so a mole would fool no one. Whether you really are a Catholic, your demeanor certainly suggests otherwise. But it’s not my purpose to uncover you or anybody.

I am glad that you are a Catholic, though talking like you do in this forum in defence of Islam make you look rather strange. Not that we object to anybody defending anything. If you come out like Lawrence of PA and state your affliation clearly, nobody whine about it.

So you are new Catholic with a Fundamentalist background. My experience with new Catholics would be that they will act more Catholic than many of us. You certainly don’t.

Here are some of your posts that likely betray your position.

My favorite verse is probably Surah 6:162. I like how it emphasizes that everything we do is all for God, that our lives and our death are for him alone It reminds me a little of Saint Paul’s similar words in Philippians 2. I like when the Qur’an revisits Old or New Testament accounts, and its unique take on the tales. I don’t know if I have a favorite “character.”

You clearly show a love for the Quran. I don’t, simply because of what the Quran says about Jesus and the kafirs.

Yes, but it also affirms him as Prophet and Messiah, the sinless Son of Mary. There will always be a certain similitude to and dissimilitude from the Christian Scriptures.

I can’t believe my ears that you should defend this. Jesus as God is non-negotiable.

… but Muhammad as the violent fellow who killed to convert is simply not an accurate picture. If it were, why is it that the Islamic people lived alongside of Jews and Christians for centuries without any pressure to convert? This is a legitimate question. The same can’t be said of Christianity, that’s for sure. But it was only at a later date that Islamic leaders saw it fit to try to convert their Jewish and Christian neighbors.

This is common Muslims argument. If you are long enough here, you would have heard them saying this thousand of times.

I know there are “moles,” but the fact that a Catholic upholding the literary intergrity of a religious text like the Qur’an is met with such suspicion strikes me as a little sad.

A Catholics would be suspicious of the Quran and the suspicion is mutual. Muslims think we have a corrupted Bible.

Finally, you can justify your position and view. It’s your right and freedom. I am sad for a new Catholic who should be this liberal. Are you sure you convert to a right religion?

May God bless you.

 

[paarsurrey]

Laurence of PA wrote,
You forget religion “C”, which is athiesm. If the prevelance of murder in a society is the measure of which OPIUM is best, then religions with a God are winning over religions without a God. The 20th Century will attest to this.
Atheist communists in the 20th century killed more people than the Church has ever been accused of killing. In China, more that 65 million and counting have been murdered. More than 20 million in the former USSR. 2 million and rising in North Korea. At least 2 million in Cambodia. Almost 2 million in Africa. Somewhere around 1 million in Vietnam. Another million in the communist places of Eastern Europe. At least 150,000 in Latin America.
If you think booting God of society is the cure-all for wickedness, look at the above numbers and you will see that you are sorely mistaken. The athiest ideal has already been implemented on a wide scale and instead of freeing the masses from tyranny and decreasing human misery, it seems to have had the opposite effect.

Hi

I agree with you.
Wonderful , sir, wonderful post indeed.

Thanks

 

[mangy_dog]

Hi St_Aloysius,

That sounds like another book I know.

Excuse me for being rude, but I don’t believe you.

I found the Qur’an to have no context, no chronology, and very hard to read.

Now I really don’t believe you have ever studied Islam. Tell me, what is your favourite Qur’anic verse or story, or your favourite Qur’anic character?

So has the Qur’an.

Considering you’ve read the Qur’an, you’d know that the Qur’an specifically denies Jesus is the Son of God (Qur’an 5:17) and it specifically denies Jesus died on the Cross (Qur’an 4:157).

I agree with you on that. The two should never be compared. Each should be studied separately so that emotions are kept aside.

Qur’an holds no interest for me except for bits and pieces which denote the advocacy towards violence and other interesting “tid-bits”. Example: Qur’an 9:11 - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; And there was peace.
(Note the verse number!)

Jesus Christ is the Lord and God of all. Not a prophet “like Mohammed”. But…while we’re on the subject of prophets - the last and greatest prophet of them all is Saint John the Baptist, for he announced the arrival of God with us and then baptized Him in the Jordan. There is no greater prophet. There is only one God and [Allah] is His name - but HIs prophet is John the Baptist not Mohammed.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Hi

I agree with you.
Wonderful , sir, wonderful post indeed.

Thanks

Seriously paarsurrey, are you kidding?

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Hi

I agree with you.
Wonderful , sir, wonderful post indeed.

Thanks

I just thought I’d respond a second time so as to make myself clear and understood.

You are *the *paarsurrey of CAF – the paarurrey who is *bragged *about for being ever so kind and gentle – and this is how you respond to a post about non-belief? You are the one with this in your signature: “…bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics…” I thought you of all people would know there’s a difference between Atheism and religion.

Instead you congratulate a poster for saying that “religions with a God are winning against religions without a God”.

Not one “atheistic tyrant” in the history of the world *ever *woke up one morning and said to himself: “Gee, God doesn’t exist. This means I should go out and butcher millions of innocents…” Such people did this because they believed in what they were doing! They believed that by hacking poor children to death, they’d purify the world! This isn’t cold atheistic logic…THIS IS BLIND, IRRATIONAL BELIEF!

*I highly doubt anyone * has ever killed only because they didn’t believe in something.

I wasn’t even going to respond to Bubble’s post. It’s just the same old red herring swimming in the wrong thread. I thought a fisher of men like yourself would know the difference.

 

[St_Aloysius]

A Catholics would be suspicious of the Quran and the suspicion is mutual. Muslims think we have a corrupted Bible.

Finally, you can justify your position and view. It’s your right and freedom. I am sad for a new Catholic who should be this liberal. Are you sure you convert to a right religion?

May God bless you.

Being Catholic in no way hinders me from APPRECIATING the truths in other religions. And, BTW, appreciating does not equal “subscribe to.”

I don’t know what “liberal” means to you… I like being a “liberal”, but it sounds as though you were attacking me. When you’ve heard conservative preachers ranting on about how Muslims are attempting to subvert America’s immaculate foundation and overthrow the institution–and are, of course, allies to the homosexuals and democrats–you get a little sick of this kind of narrow-mindedness pretty quickly.

We as Catholics (as members of the Universal Church) should have the capacity to see God in all things good and true and beautiful–by no means merely in some grand cathedral, but in each other, in the stars, on the trees, in the words of great poets and great prophets, as well. My Catholicity is not on trial here (as your judgments presume); I simply wish we could stop condemning long enough to see and hear God, who often works in ways unexpected by us.

And by the way, the reason I seem to “lung out” against my own faith at times is because I’ve met more than a few Catholics ignorant enough to DEFEND the Crusades and Inquisition. Rather than pretend our history perfect, I would rather we confront our mistakes in order to learn from them and in order to ensure the betterment of ourselves. “The Church,” Father has said to me many a-time, “is to be in a constant state of reform.” So let’s reform, but we must start with ourselves.

Likewise, I’ve heard Muslims who won’t admit the mistakes being made now (years from now all will recognize the tragedy) but others who codemn such terrorism and call such men performing these deeds pseudo-Muslims. I’m worried that in our prejudice we forget about those who truly believe Islam to be a peaceful religion. Regardless of your opinion of it, it has the capability to become so, and all I hear people doing (here and other places) is trying to ignite some racial or religious fire that needs to be extinguished by now.

I guess I stick up for Islam because I like an underdog, and I’m sick of us hating without reason, sick of us condemning without examining.

I believe God to be a God of peace, and I believe we in the Church are armed with the fullness of truth. But we are by no means the ONLY followers of the God of peace, even if many of his followers believe in fragments the true faith. Do Muslims or Jews believe Jesus is the Son of God? No; but the overwhelming consensus seems to be that we’re all trying to worship the same one. And God works, believe it or not, in those who possess a sincere devotion to him–even if at times misled.

Forgive me if, in refusing to recant and even asserting further my views, I sound exceedingly “liberal.” But keep in mind that in Heaven there will not be Catholics or Methodists, liberals or conservatives–just children of God.

Don’t read my posts if you have a weak stomach, but I urge you to weigh my words in regard to their conformity to the Church’s teaching and not according to your own bias. If you can be objective in this way, you’ll find I’m more reasonable than my therapist would have you to believe. lol

Peace, my conservative friends!

 

[Reuben_J]

Don’t read my posts if you have a weak stomach, but I urge you to weigh my words in regard to their conformity to the Church’s teaching and not according to your own bias. If you can be objective in this way, you’ll find I’m more reasonable than my therapist would have you to believe. lol

Yes, I’m not really interested in this. My respond was to another Catholic in supporting her about the existence of mischievous Muslim moles trolling in this forum. And this is what I wrote, in case you miss it.
"Reuben J:

Just so that we know them and keep it in mind when exchanging posts with them. Personally I feel it’s worthless, an exercise in futility to engage in meaningful dialogue with this type of people.

Being Catholic in no way hinders me from APPRECIATING the truths in other religions. And, BTW, appreciating does not equal “subscribe to.”

I hope you’re not being deliberate in saying this. As if I don’t know! There is nothing wrong in appreciating literary beauty. I never say you shouldn’t, and that should be understood without being said.

As a Catholic, you appreciating the truths in other religions betray you! Jesus as a prophet IS NOT the TRUTH. I’m not shouting, just emphasizing. If you believe this, you may not be well a Catholic!

But actually you’re speaking on a misguided premise. And that make you a suspect because it’s as if you want to digress from the topic. The subject of the thread is – Bible and the Quran, let’s settle this. WE are arguing on this. In the context of the thread, one has to make a stand. This is what the Catholics here just did, including me. You did not but instead trying to show your liberal intellectual grasp of the thing.

I don’t know what “liberal” means to you… I like being a “liberal”, but it sounds as though you were attacking me. When you’ve heard conservative preachers ranting on about how Muslims are attempting to subvert America’s immaculate foundation and overthrow the institution–and are, of course, allies to the homosexuals and democrats–you get a little sick of this kind of narrow-mindedness pretty quickly.

Just how forgetful can you get! It’s you who first use the word liberal to describe yourself and I was merely taking it up from there. Frankly I don’t know what that term means except to think that it must apply to your present behaviour as a ‘Catholic’ with regards to your position on the Quran.

Don’t mess with me. We Catholics do not quite appreciate terms like liberal or conservative. We are just Catholics. The teachings of the church are the same and apply for every Catholic. You have just introduced three labels so far – accusatory, liberal and now, conservative. Will there be more? Please don’t.

Come, let me refresh your memory on your posts.

I come from a conservative household in a conservative state (TN) and so forgive me for acting somewhat “liberally” in your view at times

Peace, my accusatory friends!

Peace, my conservative friends!

I know this will get us nowhere. Quoting a Muslim poster who once said here, we can argue until the cow comes home, we’d still not reconcile our difference at this rate. That’s why I said, this is worthless, an exercise in futility.

Anyway, good luck to you.

 

[St_Aloysius]

Well, that said, back to the original topic.

I think both the Christian and Islamic religions have the potential to be peaceful religions.

So to answer the OP, I believe the fault is (usually) in us, not the religion. However, whenever the rare circumstance arises in which a religion that by its very nature encourages hatred or killing or any such thing, both the religion, its texts, and its adherents are at fault.

 

[Reuben_J]

So to answer the OP, I believe the fault is (usually) in us, not the religion. However, whenever the rare circumstance arises in which a religion that by its very nature encourages hatred or killing or any such thing, both the religion, its texts, and its adherents are at fault.

Disagree. There are specific elements in Islam that allow practices that prohibit the conduciveness of love but instead allow hatred and killing. This subject has been beaten to death in this forum so don’t ask me examples.

Muslims look up to Mohammad as the ultimate example on how to live. Mohammad, obviously from his life, was not the perfect example. He was only human and like any human, many times succumbed to human weaknesses in morality and even justice.

Specific verses in the Quran are not as good as you may want to admire, and Muslims are duty bound to obey these verses.

Allah is NOT the ever-loving God. He hates sinners. He purposely at times send people to hell without any reasons. He allows Muslims to die for his cause if and when required. Though there are many good aspects of Allah, the inclusion of the mentioned self-centred characteristic does not bode well for a so-called peace and harmonious God.

 

[inJESUS]

I do not think there is anything wrong reading othr faiths. Even priests study Islam.

I have a problem saying " i appreciate the truth" in some of what Muhammad taught. Why? because i wouldn’t look for truth in someone who is not entitled to show me the truth in the first place, and who gives wrong teachings at the same time…in other words, he is no authority to teach me anything and i wouldn’t appreciate neither the person nor his book that oppose the teachings of Jesus. The apostles themselves were little tolerant to false prophets’ teachings and wouldn’t have said " we appreciate some of their truth".

 

[St_Aloysius]

have a problem saying " i appreciate the truth" in some of what Muhammad taught. Why? because i wouldn’t look for truth in someone who is not entitled to show me the truth in the first place

“We must accept the Truth from whatever source it comes.”–Maimonides

I am saddened by the Islamic people’s view of God as being too dignified to stoop down to pick them up from the mud and mire in which they oftentimes find themselves. This is where Judaism and Christianity’s concepts of God come to a point of dissent with Islam’s.

Still, I think reform is necessary (and inevitable), so while admitting the imperfections of the Islamic faith as stands now, I remain convinced that in future generations it will be significantly more peaceful–and that this theme of peace will enjoy more catholicity than it now does.

 

[WynCatholic]

St_Aloysius; I also converted to the Catholic Church from a fundamentalist Baptist (however reformed theology-not dispensationalist). For a while in my journey, I explored, like the OP, an agnostic approach to the knotty problem like religion and a functioning society. prior to 9-11 I actually thought, in my machievelian way, how islam could be better used to build a coherent society[because of the enforced orthodoxy, the ability to enforce your own ‘school’ of islamic thot within the society, etc]. It cannot sustain a a society, It has grave fundamental flaws in its philosophical theology that are contrary to reality.

“We must accept the Truth from whatever source it comes.”–Maimonides
Still, I think reform is necessary (and inevitable), so while admitting the imperfections of the Islamic faith as stands now

I believe that reform is needed, but I am not optimistic about it happening. ‘Reform’ of islam is imho not possible. islam demands an irrational approach to its relgious text that specifically exlcudes any moderation of its words or of the history that it sees as exemplary.
nor does it have a view of I would very definately encourage you to read B16th’s Regensburg lecture of 12 September 2006, and consider also Spengler’s evaluation of islam. (Also interesting debate in the letter section of the current (Jan2008) issue of First Things magazine.
BTW, I think this is the first time you have admitted to existence of imperfection in the islamic faith.
other responses will go to another thread.

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe that reform is needed, but I am not optimistic about it happening. ‘Reform’ of islam is imho not possible.

Hi

I think you have not studied any book of the PromisedMessiah 1838-1908, if you study any, then you would understand that indeed the required ‘Reform’ of Islam has already taken place and is on the table.

I suggest reading:
alislam.org/library/books/Message-of-Peace.pdf

Thanks

 

[mangy_dog]

Being Catholic in no way hinders me from APPRECIATING the truths in other religions. And, BTW, appreciating does not equal “subscribe to.”

I don’t know what “liberal” means to you… I like being a “liberal”, but it sounds as though you were attacking me. When you’ve heard conservative preachers ranting on about how Muslims are attempting to subvert America’s immaculate foundation and overthrow the institution–and are, of course, allies to the homosexuals and democrats–you get a little sick of this kind of narrow-mindedness pretty quickly.

We as Catholics (as members of the Universal Church) should have the capacity to see God in all things good and true and beautiful–by no means merely in some grand cathedral, but in each other, in the stars, on the trees, in the words of great poets and great prophets, as well. My Catholicity is not on trial here (as your judgments presume); I simply wish we could stop condemning long enough to see and hear God, who often works in ways unexpected by us.

And by the way, the reason I seem to “lung out” against my own faith at times is because I’ve met more than a few Catholics ignorant enough to DEFEND the Crusades and Inquisition. Rather than pretend our history perfect, I would rather we confront our mistakes in order to learn from them and in order to ensure the betterment of ourselves. “The Church,” Father has said to me many a-time, “is to be in a constant state of reform.” So let’s reform, but we must start with ourselves.

Likewise, I’ve heard Muslims who won’t admit the mistakes being made now (years from now all will recognize the tragedy) but others who codemn such terrorism and call such men performing these deeds pseudo-Muslims. I’m worried that in our prejudice we forget about those who truly believe Islam to be a peaceful religion. Regardless of your opinion of it, it has the capability to become so, and all I hear people doing (here and other places) is trying to ignite some racial or religious fire that needs to be extinguished by now.

I guess I stick up for Islam because I like an underdog, and I’m sick of us hating without reason, sick of us condemning without examining.

I believe God to be a God of peace, and I believe we in the Church are armed with the fullness of truth. But we are by no means the ONLY followers of the God of peace, even if many of his followers believe in fragments the true faith. Do Muslims or Jews believe Jesus is the Son of God? No; but the overwhelming consensus seems to be that we’re all trying to worship the same one. And God works, believe it or not, in those who possess a sincere devotion to him–even if at times misled.

Forgive me if, in refusing to recant and even asserting further my views, I sound exceedingly “liberal.” But keep in mind that in Heaven there will not be Catholics or Methodists, liberals or conservatives–just children of God.

Don’t read my posts if you have a weak stomach, but I urge you to weigh my words in regard to their conformity to the Church’s teaching and not according to your own bias. If you can be objective in this way, you’ll find I’m more reasonable than my therapist would have you to believe. lol

Peace, my conservative friends!

The Catholic church is the one, true church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first Pope…263 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI.

If this is not your premise - then you have more problems than just being liberal.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[steve_b]

Obviously the Christian God has decided to leave *me *wandering too, otherwise – if he *wanted *-- he could prove his existence to me RIGHT NOW!

Maybe you are here because God is stirring you to be here and you didn’t ignore Him.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Maybe you are here because God is stirring you to be here and you didn’t ignore Him.

I’ve heard this more of this kind of thing here than the word “Catholic”!

The truth is: I came here a Catholic in search of confidence and understanding with his faith, but it was only after carousing around for a while *here *that God sent me the message to become an agnostic.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I’ve heard this more of this kind of thing here than the word “Catholic”!

The truth is: I came here a Catholic in search of confidence and understanding with his faith, but it was only after carousing around for a while *here *that God sent me the message to become an agnostic.

emphasis mine]
Are you sure it was God? Maybe it was somebody else disguising themself as God.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

emphasis mine]
Are you sure it was God? Maybe it was somebody else disguising themself as God.

Like the guys who wrote the Old Testament?

Nope, I’m pretty sure it was God who told me to come to these forums to discover that he didn’t exist.