"Bible Christian" Who does this better fit: Protestants or Catholics?

[brosam]

BTW, by attacking His church you are putting yourself outside of His will, does that make you Christian?

No. Repentence and faith makes me a christian. You’re assuming that the Roman Catholic church is “His church” and you’re assuming that your church is beyond criticism.

That depends, are you teaching bigotry and hatred like you are putting forth here?

Trick question. I haven’t said anything hateful or bigoted.

I might actually like to discuss your non-Christ like behavior with him.

If I give you his email, will you also give me the email of your pastor so I can point out the Unchristlike behavior of you and your fellow Roman Catholics?

sounds like somebody you have attacked for being Catholic might have gotten you back. It’s sort of funny if you ask me.

Who have I ever attacked for being Roman Catholic. Is “getting back” at someone how Roman Catholics show that they’re the true church?

Why would everything we teach need to be supported by scripture?

Because the Bible is God’s word and the final authority on matters of doctrine and practice.

Why would that make us ‘bad’ in your eyes? Do you attack Lutherans or Episcopalians as harshly as you attack Catholics, or are we alone in bearing the brunt of your hatred?

Trick question. I don’t hate anybody.

Here’s a thought. marinate on it for a while…Isn’t saying that the Bible alone can save you the same as saying that your driver’s education book can make you a Formula 1 driver?

Yes. Saying that the Bible alone can save you is not a true or logical statement. That’s why we don’t say that the Bible can save you.

Yes, all that is in the Bible is good, but not everything that is good is in the Bible. And since God is, by His very nature, both Goodness itself and everywhere [ie. outside of the Bible] isn’t it possible that there are good and Holy things NOT in the Bible?

God has stated that He gave us the scriptures for the purpose of determining doctrine. If He did not give us the scriptures for the purpose of determining doctrine, then He has lied and is not good.

Because I love you, and I want only the very best for you. And the place that God has set for you at his table is sitting empty. Please come home and take your rightful place!

I’m as home as I’m going to get, this side of Heaven.

The Bible says that I’m a born again child of God and I’m going to have to take God’s word over yours.

And, as I said above, only YOU are claiming not to be christian.

When did I claim to not be a Christian?

But if you put yourself in the position of persecutor [think St Paul] then you are, by your own actions, separating yourself from God.

How is questioning an Unbiblical belief “persecution”?

So tell me, dear pastor…are you a Christian?

Yes. In spite of what Roman Catholicism teaches, I am a born again Christian and I am a valid and complete part of the true church that Christ founded.

 

[Lampo]

Because the Bible is God’s word and the final authority on matters of doctrine and practice.

Where does it say this in Scripture? Here are a few questions I’d like to ask you:

1. Who do you think God used to preserve the Scriptures? Was it not the Catholic Church? Martin Luther admitted to as much…will you?
2. Were they Christian Church/Churches of God monasteries, or Catholic monasteries?
3. Is not the word “scripture” itself from the Latin word scriptura (which means “written things”)?
4. Which Church was it again that used Latin?
5. Where in the Bible does it say that we should go by the Bible alone when it comes to all matters pertaining to faith and morals? Scripture verse?
6. Where in the Bible does it list the books which should be part of the Bible? Scripture verse?
7. Where in the Bible does it say that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Scripture verse?
8. Do you believe the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?
9. If yes, where in the Bible does it say that the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?
10. Do you believe the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit?
11. If yes, where in the Bible does it tell us that the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?
12. Where in the Bible does it tell us who the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was? Scripture verse?

1. Do you interpret the Bible? Yes or no?
2. If the answer to #13 is yes, is your interpretation infallible? Yes or no?
3. If the answer to #14 is no, then will you admit that your interpretations of the Bible could be wrong in one or more places? Yes or no?
4. If the answer to #13 is yes, then does anyone have the authority to tell you, that your interpretations of the Bible are wrong? Yes or no?
5. If the answer to #16 is yes, then who? Just one name please.
6. Can those who do not have God’s approval be saved? Yes or no?
7. Did the Apostles teach different doctrines to different people? Yes or no?
8. Did the Apostles and other leaders of the early Church believe it was okay to have false doctrines within the Church? Yes or no?
9. Did the Apostles break fellowship with those who were teaching different doctrines than they were teaching? Yes or no?
10. Did Jesus and the Apostles demand conformity to the doctrines they taught? Yes or no?
11. Were the Apostles infallible in their teaching on faith and morals? Yes or no?
12. Can you be “one” with someone who believes in false doctrines? Yes or no?
13. In your church, can two walk together if they are not in agreement? Yes or no?
14. Did Jesus give his real flesh or his symbolic flesh for the life of the world? Real or symbolic?
15. Did Jesus say that the bread he would give us to eat, which, if we ate we would live for ever, was the flesh that He would give for the life of the world? Yes or no?
16. Did Jesus say that we had to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life? Yes or no?
17. Did Jesus say that His flesh was food indeed and that His blood was drink indeed? Yes or no? 31) Do you believe the Body of Christ, the church, with Jesus as its head, can teach error in the areas of faith and morals? Yes or no?
18. Do you believe the Body of Christ, the church, with Jesus as its head, can teach error in the areas of faith and morals? Yes or no?
19. Can God appear to you under any form He chooses? Yes or no?
20. Is the correlation I am drawing between the flesh that Jesus shall give for the life of the world and the bread that Jesus shall give us to eat, found in John 6:51? Yes or no?
21. Do we need to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life? Yes or no?
22. If the answer to #33 is yes, then can we say that His flesh does indeed profit us? Yes or no?
23. If the answer to #34 is yes, then does verse 62 of John 6 mean that it counts as nothing to eat Jesus’ flesh and to drink His blood? Yes or no?
24. Does Jesus’ flesh “count for nothing?” Yes or no?
25. Are you an authentic interpreter of Scripture? Yes or no?
26. If #37 is yes, is your interpretation of Scripture infallible? Yes or no?
27. Am I an authentic interpreter of Scripture? Yes or no?
28. If you are not an authentic interpreter of Scripture, then who is?

 

[Grateful4mercy]

No. Repentence and faith makes me a christian. You’re assuming that the Roman Catholic church is “His church” and you’re assuming that your church is beyond criticism.

so you are saying we are NOT his church, so you are free to attack as you please?

Trick question. I haven’t said anything hateful or bigoted.

If I give you his email, will you also give me the email of your pastor so I can point out the Unchristlike behavior of you and your fellow Roman Catholics?

Please show me the behavior you speak of. I have been nothing but charitable to you.

Who have I ever attacked for being Roman Catholic. Is “getting back” at someone how Roman Catholics show that they’re the true church?

obviously somebody outside of this forum. I don’t know your habits, maybe you didn’t realize you were speaking to a catholic at the time.

Secondly, I don’t think anybody here is without sin. Are you claiming to be?

Because the Bible is God’s word and the final authority on matters of doctrine and practice.

It should probably say that in it somewhere, then, shouldn’t it? I haven’t even seen the word ‘Bible’ in it anywhere.

Trick question. I don’t hate anybody.

I hope that is true. Perhaps this venue is not well suited to your apologetics style. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yes. Saying that the Bible alone can save you is not a true or logical statement. That’s why we don’t say that the Bible can save you.

God has stated that He gave us the scriptures for the purpose of determining doctrine. If He did not give us the scriptures for the purpose of determining doctrine, then He has lied and is not good.

Circular reasoning. We need the Bible to know doctrine but it was doctrine that put the bible together. Where does it begin?

As a matter of FACT, the bible says the CHURCH is the foundation of truth, not a book.

I’m as home as I’m going to get, this side of Heaven.

The Bible says that I’m a born again child of God and I’m going to have to take God’s word over yours.

I’m not claiming you are or aren’t saved, am I? When did I say so either way?

When did I claim to not be a Christian?

you keep saying you’re not a christian, what can I say? If it were me making the argument I wouldn’t even give anyone the pleasure of knowing their opinion of my Christianity matters. [it doesn’t, btw]

How is questioning an Unbiblical belief “persecution”?

Where in the bible does it say you SHOULD? I distinctly remember a verse where Jesus HIMSELF saying:

38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”

39 Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.

40 For whoever is not against us is for us.

Yes. In spite of what Roman Catholicism teaches, I am a born again Christian and I am a valid and complete part of the true church that Christ founded.

Shows you what YOU know, we’re actually MORE liberal about who is saved than other denominations. We think God gets to decide, not us. But when God chooses to save you, he does it by joining you to his mystical body, the Church. Are you claiming we are NOT part of that church?

 

[historyb]

So, I decided that the best revenge would be to come here and defend sound doctrine.

Unfortunately Protestants have no such thing as that in your sentence

Because the Bible is God’s word and the final authority on matters of doctrine and practice

This you say, but is not provable at all. I remember believing those same falsehoods when I was a Protestant.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, I’ve been studying the scriptures for about twenty years and preaching and teaching them for twelve.

That’s great! I suspect you are just about ready for a Catholic education!

I’m sorry you feel God’s word is so crazy.

It is true that His Word is crazy to the world. But I think what was being referred to was your crazy interpretation of it.

How else am I supposed to know that it’s the Holy Spirit?

You will know when your understanding is consistent with what the Apostles preached.

Actually, it’s quite the opposite. When I first became a Christian, I was a part of the Word of Faith movement and the last thing I ever thought I’d be was a fundamentalist preacher. However, it was because I studied the scriptures and realized that I was wrong and the scriptures were right, that I am where I am today.

Just goes to prove you are capable of being enlightened! I hope your growth continues.

It wan’t my word. All I did was tell you what the Bible says.

It is not what Scripture says that is creating the problem here, but your understanding and representation of it. I know you think they are one and the same, but they are not.

You’re right. It doesn’t say that. It says that we’re test everything we hear in light of the objective standard of God’s word in order to determine that it is actually the Holy Spirit.

really? Where does it say THAT?

 

[guanophore]

Well who gave the world the Bible?

The Bible is the teachings of the Church founded by Christ.

The Bible supports the teachings of the Church not the other way around.

It is not all of the teachings since many teachings were already in every day use long before the Bible was canonised.

Some teachings of the Lord were not written down by His Apostles and their Diciples since St John tells us that ‘Not every word that Christ spoke was written down or recorded in any detail’ Jn21:25

Bible Christians are ‘any Christian who believes in the Sacred Scriptures and the Church whose Scriptures they are’

Why do some refuse to believe what the Church of Christ says but paradoxically believe every word she has written?

They don’t know any better. brosam clearly does not have any sense of his family history. It is not his fault, whatever tradition he was trained in is like a Cliff Notes version of Christianity. He is doing the best he can to be faithful to his Readers Digest version.

 

[guanophore]

In all fairness, you’re right. That was a mean thing to say and I shouldn’t have said it. I was reacting in anger from the vicious way that the Roman Catholics have gone after me, personally, here.

Perhaps you might consider refraining from insulting? I am not justifying personal attacks, but it is understandible that people will become defensive when you insult them. For example, I see that you have taken one of my statements (without permission) and incorrectly attributed it. I believe you are doing this to deliberately arouse conflict here on the board, and I find it very uncharitable.

That doesn’t excuse it, though. I’ve already contacted the moderators and asked them to edit the post for me.

Good for you! Repentance honors God.

Don’t you think it’s just a little hypocritical of Roman Catholics to say that we’re not Christians, but we can’t suggest that Roman Catholics aren’t Christians?

I can’t really speak to that, because I am not one who has said that. However, I am commanded to know them by their fruits. I will share with you a fruit check that I use:

4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Cor 13:4-7

It works like this:

brosam is patient and kind; brosam is not jealous or boastful; brosam is not arrogant or rude. Brosam does not insist on his own way; brosam is not irritable or resentful; brosam does not rejoice at wrong but rejoices in the right. Brosam bears all things, believes al things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Honestly? I sleep just fine and the only thing I’ve “found” about Roman Catholicism is that most of it’s teachings can’t be supported from scripture.

If you choose to continue your study, you will find that you not only have no idea what the Catholic Church teaches, but that it is all entirely biblical. You will also find that the Catholic Church wrote, preserved, and promulgated that Bible you are misunderstanding.

Why would you pray for me to convert to Roman Catholicism? I thought we were already Christians.

Personally, I would not, but I have told you repeatedly that Catholicism is not “Roman” and I think you just say this kind of thing to be insulting.

 

[guanophore]

I see. So then, when the Bible says that Jesus’ blood cleanses from all sins, it doesn’t mean the lesser ones?

I think you will have to start a new thread for this one, brosam, because it is off topic here. Yes, Jesus blood cleanes us from all mortal and venial sins. He does not, however, always spare us the temporal punishment for our sins.

For example, you may ask God for his mercy and forgiveness for misrepresenting the CAtholic faith, and certain persons (such as myself), but you may still pay a price for your misdeeds (such as being censured here on this board).

 

[guanophore]

No. Repentence and faith makes me a christian. You’re assuming that the Roman Catholic church is “His church” and you’re assuming that your church is beyond criticism.

Again, your mantra of “Roman”. It is getting old. The Catholic Church is not “Roman”. The Roman part of it is a certain Rite that happens to be used more commonly in the US.

Yes, the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded on Peter, the Rock. It is beyond condemnation and fault, but clearly not criticism. Your own posts adequately testify to that!

Trick question. I haven’t said anything hateful or bigoted.

I submit to you that misrepresenting me on your signature, and using my statement out of context is a hateful and bigoted act.

If I give you his email, will you also give me the email of your pastor so I can point out the Unchristlike behavior of you and your fellow Roman Catholics?

Toward what end? Do you think the pastor will be able to help us? Do you think he has anything “christian” to offer?

Who have I ever attacked for being Roman Catholic. Is “getting back” at someone how Roman Catholics show that they’re the true church?

I have two responses to this. I think you are attacking me by ascribing “Romanism” to me. I find it personally insulting. I also want to say that I think it is inappropriate for Christians to be “getting back” at one another.

Because the Bible is God’s word and the final authority on matters of doctrine and practice.

This is a protestant error that emerged in the 1500’s and cannot be substantiated by the Scriptures themselves.

Trick question. I don’t hate anybody.

It seems to be hateful to make erroneous accusations toward people, and use language against them that they have repeatedly informed you they find offensive.

Yes. Saying that the Bible alone can save you is not a true or logical statement. That’s why we don’t say that the Bible can save you.

Well, that is progress, at least.!

God has stated that He gave us the scriptures for the purpose of determining doctrine. If He did not give us the scriptures for the purpose of determining doctrine, then He has lied and is not good.

The purpose of the scripture is not to determine doctrine. That Jesus reserved for Himself, and the Apostles He appointed. Much of the doctrine they taught can be found in the scripture, but the source of the doctrine is the Apostolic preaching, not the book.

When did I claim to not be a Christian?

Actions speak louder than words!

How is questioning an Unbiblical belief “persecution”?

You have already passed judgement, saying that it is “unbiblical” because it does not fit your understanding of scripture. It is also the manner in which you question, which is hostile and derisive.

Yes. In spite of what Roman Catholicism teaches, I am a born again Christian and I am a valid and complete part of the true church that Christ founded.

I can’t speak to that, since I don’t know anything about you except what you have posted on this board. However, given that, it is likely that you do not have an Apostolic understanding of what it means to be born again.

 

[guanophore]

THE SCRIPTURES FURNISH:
All necessary things which Jesus did - Acts 1:1-2

You are misinterpreting this verse, MfM. Luke is saying that the book was full of what Jesus did, not that the book contained EVERYTHING Jesus said and did. We know this is the case because there are other actions of Jesus not included in Luke. The scriptures do NOT furnish all necessary things. If they did , there would be one unified church on earth, as He intended.

Certainty of His action and teaching - Luke 1:3-4

Acts 1:3-5
3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God. 4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me,

It is true that the gospel record bears certain witness to his action and teaching. However, the certain witness was not entrusted to the book, but the people. He commissioned His Apostles to bear the certain witness. They committed part of this teaching to writing, but not all.

Life in the name of Jesus - John 20:30-31

This is a common fundamentalist misunderstanding also. The Scriptures do not furnish Life. Jesus furnishes Life. The books are written to draw people to Jesus, who is Life. He is the Word, not the book.

John 20:30-31

30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name."

This passage also makes it clear that the disciples had more knowledge of what Jesus said and did than what is written in the book.

Instructions to salvation - 2 Tim. 3:15

15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim 3:15-16

I wonder why my RSV has “for” salvation". Hmmm. Anyway, Paul here is referring to the OT, which is what Timothy grew up on in his home. We know it is not the NT because Paul is in the immediate process of writing that, and that Timothy’s childhood predated the NT. This is important because many fundamentalist believe there are adequate instructions in the NT to “get saved”, when in fact, taking these passages out of context gives a very truncated view of salvation.

Commands of the Lord - 1 Cor. 14:37

1 Cor 14:37-38

37 If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38 If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized."

I wonder when the Apostolic Authority, as speaking commands of the Lord, ceased to exist?

Standard by which teachers are tested - Acts 17:11

Acts 17:10-11
11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessaloni’ca, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

It is interesting to note, again, that they were using OT scripture here. I wonder if we could do the same today, using the OT?

Standard which we cannot go beyond - 1 Cor. 4:6

Also another reference to the OT. However ,it is taken out of context here.

Joy that is complete - 1 John 1:3-4

3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing this that our joy may be complete. 1 John 1:2-4

Another testimony to the Apostolic Tradition. John is saying that the proclamation that creates unity and fellowship. when the Scriptures are separated from that Apostolic Tradition, joy is not complete. John is writing this to Catholics, who are in unity, and his joy is complete because they are in unity with the apostolic teachings.

Standard of judgment - Rev. 20:12

Although scripture can be used as a standard of judgement, your application of it here is erroneous and out of context.

Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

The “books” referred to here are the books of Life, wherein are written the names of those that belong to the Lamb, not the scriptures He gave to us. Also, note that all are judged by their DEEDS/WORKS, not by grace through faith.

 

[brosam]

Perhaps you might consider refraining from insulting?

I will if you all will.

I am not justifying personal attacks, but it is understandible that people will become defensive when you insult them. For example, I see that you have taken one of my statements (without permission) and incorrectly attributed it.

And when did I do this?

Good for you! Repentance honors God.

And, after I saw that it didn’t do anything to stop the attacks on me, I immediately regretted it.

I can’t really speak to that, because I am not one who has said that. However, I am commanded to know them by their fruits. I will share with you a fruit check that I use:

4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Cor 13:4-7

It works like this:

brosam is patient and kind; brosam is not jealous or boastful; brosam is not arrogant or rude. Brosam does not insist on his own way; brosam is not irritable or resentful; brosam does not rejoice at wrong but rejoices in the right. Brosam bears all things, believes al things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Do you believe that the Roman Catholics here have done these things?

If you choose to continue your study, you will find that you not only have no idea what the Catholic Church teaches, but that it is all entirely biblical.

N\r409 bn-'oh=rd0m
You will also find that the Catholic Church wrote, preserved, and promulgated that Bible you are misunderstanding.

Personally, I would not, but I have told you repeatedly that Catholicism is not “Roman” and I think you just say this kind of thing to be insulting.