Bible contradiction- need help

[VerumAdInfernos]

Verum, here is what you actually posted in the previous page :

so if that is true, than you have to argue that Peter did not write I and II Peter, and that James the Just did not write James, nor did John write I or II or III John, or the Gospel of John.

so i am refuting the statement of your quoted above, which as it takes into scope the entire NT also includes Gospels and epistles.

False as I edited the post, and it was in response to someone who mentioned the Gospels, are you new to forums Ms. Singh?

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Or perhaps we just need to review the basics of how to read things and interpret them, obviously since your Protestant and thus as such have very twisted views about Biblical interpretation. This is handed to you from generations of ignorance, from Protestants who establish their own schools and further that ignorance in the name of being scholarly a sad shame.

 

[grace_singh]

alright Verum, Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

You as well dear.

 

[grace_singh]

hugs? :hug1:

 

[Danno2281]

I quote from the St. Joseph edition: “The ancient tradition that the author was the disciple and apostle of Jesus named Matthew is untenable beacuse the gospel is based, in large part, on the Gospel according to Mark(almost all the verses of that gospel have been utilized in this) and is hardly likely that a companion of Jesus would have followed so extensively an account that came from one who admittedly never had such an association rather than rely on his own memories.”

There I give you proof and cite a source and surely the scholars who put together St. Joseph Edition know more about Scripture than do you as a self proclaimed Scriptural Scholar. You have the tag of “Catholic” perhaps you should start posting like one. The Church is infallible. This is the last I will say of this as I have proven you wrong. Your sheriff analogy was interesting though, but hardly holds the same weight as the St. Joseph Edition Biblical scholars. My next posts must the address the Heretic who believes in the false doctrine of dispensationalism, God bless.

Your pompous attitude really serves no good purpose. You gave no such proof; what you gave was conjecture, conjecture based upon the assumption that Mark (who may well have been a disciple) underlies the texts of both Luke and Matthew. There may be evidence that tends toward this view, but there is certainly no proof. Please understand that the introductions to these books, even in Catholic bibles, are in no way guaranteed to be free from error, and, in fact change from edition to edition and translation to translation. They reflect the attitude of the majority of the editorial staff and are not at all to be considered the teaching of the Church.
If you do not believe that the writer of the fourth Gospel walked with Him, then you do not believe fully in the inerrancy of scripture, and you, my friend, risk being called a heretic.

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

Where is this stuff about the Church does not believe Peter wrote Peter’s letters, or John’s John’s. If you read the councils they say they wrote them. 1 Peter scholars believe is undoubtedly genuine, whereas most think 2 Peter is pseudographa meaning its attributed to a person that did not write it. I do not know about the claim about 2 Peter.

EnterCaanan: Why do you have a habit of trying to hijack topics to turn this into debates about what doctrines you do not like about the Catholic Church, instead it would be BETTER if you made your own topic instead of doing that, its REALLY annoying. The question was about Elijah and you turned it to be about purgatory, come on.

Anyway, St Aphraates said:

. Then our Lord said to him:— No one has ascended into heaven, so as to come down and relate to you whatsoever is there. For if I have spoken unto you of those things that are in the earth, and you believe not, how shall you believe if I shall speak unto you of those things which are in heaven? [John 3:12] For lo! no other witness besides Me has come down from thence, to bear witness concerning those things which are in heaven, so that you should believe. For Elijah went up there, but he came not down along with Me to bear witness, that the testimony of two might be sure.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Where is this stuff about the Church does not believe Peter wrote Peter’s letters, or John’s John’s. If you read the councils they say they wrote them. 1 Peter scholars believe is undoubtedly genuine, whereas most think 2 Peter is pseudographa meaning its attributed to a person that did not write it. I do not know about the claim about 2 Peter.

EnterCaanan: Why do you have a habit of trying to hijack topics to turn this into debates about what doctrines you do not like about the Catholic Church, instead it would be BETTER if you made your own topic instead of doing that, its REALLY annoying. The question was about Elijah and you turned it to be about purgatory, come on.

Anyway, St Aphraates said:

READ the posts we are talking about the Gospels NOT Peters letters, please go back and read the entire thread before making a post…

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Where is this stuff about the Church does not believe Peter wrote Peter’s letters, or John’s John’s. If you read the councils they say they wrote them. 1 Peter scholars believe is undoubtedly genuine, whereas most think 2 Peter is pseudographa meaning its attributed to a person that did not write it. I do not know about the claim about 2 Peter.

EnterCaanan: Why do you have a habit of trying to hijack topics to turn this into debates about what doctrines you do not like about the Catholic Church, instead it would be BETTER if you made your own topic instead of doing that, its REALLY annoying. The question was about Elijah and you turned it to be about purgatory, come on.

Anyway, St Aphraates said:

He didn’t turn it into about purgatory he is just an extremely confused dispensationalist and my next posts to him will “fix his wagon” real fast, so stay tuned.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Matthew 12:29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Mark 3:27
No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days[10 is spiritual for completeness]: be thou faithful unto [physical]death, and I will give thee a crown of [spiritual]life.

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

THE STRONG MAN is the DEVIL. The strong mans house is Prison. Prison is Hell.

When we are born, we are born spiritually dead, we are born subject to the ruler of this world, that would be the Strong man, who is Satan. Being spiritually dead, we are locked in prison already at the time of conception. We are bound in the Strong mans house, that is prison, that which is prison is to be bound by sin, to be bound by sin is to be under the wrath of God, to be under the wrath of God is to be in hell.

In this case, hell is described as the absence of God, which is to be under the wrath of God, in the sense of complete and total death, hell is another name for death. Which can be translated as Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in Greek, also as “grave” “pit” and “prison” all words for death. All of which are a result of sin. This is harmony.

When Christ was crucified, Satan was bound for a 1000 years, which is the “complete time” meaning until God’s plan is complete. In this case, Satan was bound at the cross and thus, the strong man was bound, and the strong mans house plundered. Meaning, the prison that is sin, which is ruled by satan, was plundered and those locked in sin, in that prison which is spiritual death, Christ had sent His Holy Spirit at the end of the 1000 years, which in reality was only 50 days later on the Day of Pentecost. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit was sent, BECAUSE satan was bound, and Peter preached and about 3000 men were saved. This is only because the strong man, who is satan, was bound, and this allowed God to send His holy spirit and plunder those who are locked in prison. Which is the entire world as we are all born into sin.

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and look at your first few verses:
Hebrews 12:23 (King James Version)
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The general assemly and church of the firstborn would be all those true believers who are made clean by the blood of Christ. This doesn’t mean anybody who joins a church is a true believer. This means everybody who is apart of the true spiritual church. This is proved by the next line, “which are written in heaven” … Right. The Lamb, who is Christ, died before the foundation of the earth, and He died for His chosen people, and His chosen are written in the book in heaven. This is called predestination. Spirits of just men made perfect simply means that … a man, who was born spiritually dead, as we all are, was made clean and justified by the blood of Christ. When that man received his new resurrected soul, then that man in that INSTANT was made perfect in his soul existence as all of that mans sin had been paid for.

Nothing to do about purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19 (King James Version)
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
EnterCanaan;5979763:

He[Christ] preached His [Word]… and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, to those spirits in prison. That is every single person on the entire planet is born spiritually dead, being thus, it is a parable about the living, our dead sinful soul is in prison, that is in the hands of Satan, who is the Strong man. The strong mans house is the prison, or hell. When Christ was crucified, Satan was bound, and when He sent His Holy Spirit on Pentecost, as Peter preached[the word of God] the Holy Spirit was able to save those men who were just moments before, spiritually dead, and locked in prison. Then in the matter of an instant, like the rushing of wind, about 3000 men were saved. These men were freed from prison.

Where are you getting that number from? Every single person in the world is NOT born spiritually dead, again these are your own interpretations gone awry, or more specifically those of Nelson Darby gone awry, we’ll get to him later. You believe in original sin, interesting since most Protestants and dispensationalists do not! A good question to ask yourself is if you believe in original sin, why reject infant Baptism? Original sin does not mean everyone is already born spiritually dead, but is rather not in a state of grace, thus the reason for baptizing infants as has been done since the time of Christ, and the early Church. I shall cite the full passage:
1P 4:6 “For this is why the Gospel was preached even to the dead, that, though condemned in the flesh in human estimation they might live in the spirit in the estimation of God.” So the KJV translation language is a bit off anyway, this proves that Bible versions DO matter.
(See Cont…)

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

(Cont…)

Its called a parable, and this is its meaning, nothing to do about beatific visions or purgatory. I just explained it in harmony with the bible, Its Bible doctrine.

False this is a twisted interpretation and your interpretation alone. That verse is ABSOLUTELY NOT A PARABLE!!! Do you know what a “parable” is? It is a story that Jesus told when he was teaching to make a point to those he was speaking to. It was understood the story may not have been an actual event but is told to convey a certain message. That statement is so crazy I really don’t know how else to address it.

1 Peter 4:6 (King James Version)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Right. The gospel, that is the word of God, was preached to those who are dead, meaning spiritually dead, and that is the whole entire world as we are all born into sin, and as the gospel was preached, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and the Holy spirit descends and testifies with your spirit, and you are given a new resurrected spirit and reborn, meaning “ALIVE” and freed from the prison of Sin, and the curse of God’s law which judges all men, but we are thereby freed from the judgment of the law by the grace of God and the blood of Christ

Absolutely NO Biblical scholar concurs. Sine theorize the dead mentioned are those that were flood victims in the OT but most all Biblical scholars accept that the dead being referred to are Christians who have heard the Gospel. Dr. Scofield affirms this in his footnotes of the KJV.

Nothing to do with purgatory.

So my friend, I just gave sound biblical teaching, what do you say, are you willing to let the bible be used for, CORRECTION and instruction in knowledge.

Or do you still know more. Good show presuming to teach that which you don’t know and meanwhile blasting me by calling me un-christian. i’ll chalk it up to zeal on your part.
You did not provide ANY sound Biblical teaching, where are your credentials? All you did was quote Scripture and give your opinion which is twisted and wrong we shall discuss how Dispensationlism is bizarre to the extreme in a moment. What you preach and litter on these boards is false doctrine, those who teach falsely have harsh repercussions, I would keep that in mind sir. I never called you un-Christian I said that you are confused for one, so we shall work to un-confuse you.

 

[graceandglory]

There is no contradiction in what was written. Neither the quotation from 2 Kings nor from 1 Maccabees says that Elijah went of his own volition, The wording is clearer in Maccabees, but the idea is the same. No man can, of his own volition, get into heaven, only be the will of God. The Greek word in John, anabaino agrees with this sense.

Even Mary was Assumed into heaven. Even she did not ascend.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Actually NONE of the NT writers walked or knew Jesus, this is a statement no Christian scholar will debate. For example we call Matthew, Matthew out of convenience the real author is anonymous.

Can you back this up?

Can you say with certianty that John was not there?

 

[juliamajor]

No authors were put on the Gospels they were all anonymous.Via the ECF we have tradition of who wrote what.But not every ECF agrees with the other-it was never unanimous.The scholarly breakdown is very simple-they don’t know who wrote the Gospels but it was more then likely some one who ,if they did not know Jesus personally they knew the apostles personally.Mark was believed to be John Mark who was an aide both to Paul and Peter.John mark worked for Peter and probably got the Story of Jesus directly from the apostles mouth.Many believe that is why, as a whole, Peter and the apostles look so thick headed and peter comes off looking badly.There are questions about some of the letters who wrote them but if you look back there were always questions about certain books of the NT.Some which almost didn’t make the 'canon cut" .

NT canonicity is based on 4 criteria.Four Criteria for Canonicity (why certain books were eventually accepted into the NT Canon, while others were rejected):

Apostolic Origin - attributed to and/or based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their closest companions).
Universal Acceptance - acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the Mediterranean world (by the end of the fourth century).
Liturgical Use - read publicly along with the OT when early Christians gathered for the Lord’s Supper (their weekly worship services).
Consistent Message - containing theological ideas compatible with other accepted Christian writings (incl. the divinity and humanity Jesus).
Four-Fold Role of the Evangelists as Authors

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

No authors were put on the Gospels they were all anonymous.Via the ECF we have tradition of who wrote what.But not every ECF agrees with the other-it was never unanimous.The scholarly breakdown is very simple-they don’t know who wrote the Gospels but it was more then likely some one who ,if they did not know Jesus personally they knew the apostles personally.Mark was believed to be John Mark who was an aide both to Paul and Peter.John mark worked for Peter and probably got the Story of Jesus directly from the apostles mouth.Many believe that is why, as a whole, Peter and the apostles look so thick headed and peter comes off looking badly.There are questions about some of the letters who wrote them but if you look back there were always questions about certain books of the NT.Some which almost didn’t make the 'canon cut" .

NT canonicity is based on 4 criteria.Four Criteria for Canonicity (why certain books were eventually accepted into the NT Canon, while others were rejected):

Apostolic Origin - attributed to and/or based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their closest companions).
Universal Acceptance - acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the Mediterranean world (by the end of the fourth century).
Liturgical Use - read publicly along with the OT when early Christians gathered for the Lord’s Supper (their weekly worship services).
Consistent Message - containing theological ideas compatible with other accepted Christian writings (incl. the divinity and humanity Jesus).
Four-Fold Role of the Evangelists as Authors

::Sigh:: A beacon of hope in a dim world, you are a fine lady and a scholar, thank you miss. About time a Catholic who knows of what they speak. Bravo (Edited).

 

[juliamajor]

::Sigh:: A beacon of hope in a dim world, you are a fine lady and a scholar, thank you miss. About time a Catholic who knows of what they speak. Bravo, and a thanks for reprieve from attack as I must continue to debunk that crazy dispensationalist.

Thanks for the kudos-i’m usually being called a modernist and heretic when all I am repeating is what I was taught by my diocesan Bible School.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Prov 8:22 “The Lord possessed Me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.”

YOU COMPLETELY misunderstand this verse. This is merely a foreshadowing of Christ If you look in the KJV footnotes of the Dr. Scofield verison(very smart guy for a protestant, but a dispensationalist himself ::Eye roll: it asserts that this is a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ, and Dr. Scofield as a Bible scholar and dispensationalist certainly has more authority over Scripture interpretation than you sir! Touche! Scofield also asserts that the Hebrew word means “possess” or “secure possession” meaning to “BUY”. Again alluding to Christs coming to Earth

Prov 8:23 “I have been **established **from everlasting, from the beginning, **before **there was ever an earth.”

FALSE a correct rough translation of this passage actually is “set up” or more akin in English to “set up” not “established” which can have different meaning.

The Lamb, who is Christ, was established from everlasting , before there was ever an earth.

John 17:24 “Father, I desire **that they also whom You gave Me **may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

Those whom You gave Me would be all those people who were chosen before the foundation of the earth, they were chosen and sanctified, meaning they were set apart, for salvation because there sins were covered by the blood of the Lamb, who is Christ. This is called predestination.

Rom 9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.

Wrong again ol’ chum. A close look at the ancient Hebrew texts which are available a number of places for any curious scholar to view and double check with various accredited translators will show that the word for “stand” actually translates better to “CONTINUE” which is much different an implication than a permanent thing.Your Bible scholarship is faulty AT BEST, and this is not zeal speaking just plain facts so chalk it up to whatever you want, I say repent now the Lord is bringing the truth to you.

According to election. Election is another word for predestination. Election implies that some were chosen. These people that were chosen, are commonly referred to as a remnant in the bible.

Your claims of election and predestination are mere misunderstandings of both things in the Bible and are based on very bizarre Bible interpretation as I shall later show all of Catholic Answers Forums where this gobbledygook originates. Again I warn you to repent ye false rabbi! False teacher of men, you serve to frustrate and confuse the truth of Gospel and the Church, renounce your ways before it is too late and accept the truth of Jesus Christs Church! The Lord pleads to you!

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 **having predestined us to adoption **as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

Speaks for itself.

OH-HO HO! it does eh? The foundation of the world DOES NOT mean creation of the world, sorry. And when you are quoting Eph 1:5 from KJV the translation is simply bad here, but that’s because the KJV is a bad translation. The word for “predestined” is actually destined, a look at the original documents reveals no such word as “pre”.

1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as the Lamb without blemish and without spot.
1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but **was manifest **[IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST] in these last times for you.
1Peter 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Right. Christ, who is the Lamb without blemish, was forordained before the foundation of the world, and was killed, and was resurrected from the dead and given glory. God died before the foundation of the world. God gave His life for ransom. Then He came to demonstrate this by dying, not spiritually mind you, because He already died spiritually and physically before the foundation of the world, but he came to DEMONSTRATE how He paid for our sins and to bind Satan at the Cross so the Holy Spirit could be sent. All apart of Gods plan.

Predestination is biblical. Only a few, that is those who were chosen, will become saved. This is biblical teaching and Gods salvation plan.

Again you mislead and to refute you is simple God’s creation of the world does not mean the “foundation” of the world, these are prophecies about Christ and the time of Christ, you are way off base, and many a Protestant theologian would laugh at you for such an assertion. FALSE predestination is NOT Biblical. Very few will be in heaven in relation to world, yes but that is the only truth here.

(See Cont…)

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

(Cont…)

You can believe your own plan and create your own salvation plan as so many do. But remember we are not saved by our works, and so anything you do will be as nothing, thus instead of studying the bible and believing WHAT THE WORD SAYS, you decide to embrace comfort of your own created doctrine and your own design for salvation.

The rapture is not false, its called the day of Judgment, the Day of the Lord, are you kidding me, how can you deny that.

Ill tell you what really is the problem, is you don’t understand the salvation plan, and so you go by what you hear which is unbiblical and you take that to the bank.

Wrong AGAIN! I believe the Church’s plan, the Bible’s plan, Christs plan, for it is to Christs church which I and other Catholics belong, you sir, are a deviant. I follow 2000 years plus of history of Christianity and the Church You follow the ramblings of a plan invented by a man named Nelson Darby, I shall explain your so called “salvation plan”.

I’ll explain the salvation plan, which is in harmony with the bible.

…Yyyeah ooook? I am not going to re-quote all that gobbledygook nonsense you posted but the intelligent version of where that comes from, let us attend!

 In the 19th century the country saw an explosion of movements and groups focusing on Christs return (Adventism). One of the Adventist movements was called Dispensationalism. It was founded by John Nelson Darby in 1830, Dispensationalism is a bizarre way of interpreting the Bible. It divides salvation history into seven distinct periods or dispensations, each has it's own role and purpose in God's "plan". We will focus on two aspects of this complicated system that relate to current problems with the rapture. It's view of Christs coming, and it's view of the Church. Darby taught that at Christs first coming the nation of Israel rejected Him, so He turned instead to the Gentiles. Jesus established the Church to gather together those Gentiles destined for salvation. In the meantime, He temporarily turned away from the Jews to punish them. This caused Israel's "Prophetic clock" to stop ticking. All of Israels OT prophecies and promises were put on hold according to Darby and his followers. When the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (Luke21:24), Jesus will return in a secret coming to the the Church(Gentile believers) to heaven. The purpose of the Church will be over then begins a seven year period of tribulation and destruction on earth, during which time the Antichrist will reign. After the seven-year tribulation, Jesus will return publicly to defeat the Antichrist and his followers. The Jews will then accept Christ as their savior and become the kingdom people. Christ will literally reign on earth for a thousand years, (the millennium of Revelation 20:4), ruling over the restored nation of Israel. Israel's prophetic clock will begin ticking again. During this time, all the OT prophecies regarding Israel will be fulfilled. Israel will re-establish the OT religion with its rituals and animal sacrifices. This is the kingdom Jesus talks about in the Gospel (Mt 4:17, 16:19 and others.) Israel will be the kingdom people again, since the Jews have always been God's chosen ones. The Church was only a makeshift temporary solution until Israel returned to the fold. After the thousand years Satan will be unleashed and quickly conquered, and the world will finally come to an end. 

 This brief overview explains why Fundamentalists who embrace Dispensationalism focus on the nation of Israel, and why they have such a low view of the Church(just a "temporary stopgap" if you will). This is also why they see the creation of Israel as a state in 1948 as crucial! Dispensationalists believe that event restarted Israel's prophetic clock. They believe the nation of Israel is poised to become the Kingdom people once more. Let's take a look in the continuation why this is false, I shall take it piece by piece.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Number one!! A faulty view of the Church! The belief that the Church is a makeshift measure for the benefit of Gentiles is strongly, strongly un-Scriptural. Also is the notion that the kingdom Christ preached is a restored Israel. In Matthew 4:17 Jesus said, “the kingdom of heaven it at hand” In Matthew 16:13-20, when Jesus taught that He will establish His Church on the Rock (St. Peter), He told Peter, “I will give you[not someone in the distant future] the keys of the kingdom of Heaven.” Sacred Scripture calls the Church the Body of Christ(Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:24), the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 13), and the Bride of Chrsit that Jesus marries at the end of time (Revelation 21:9). Jesus said He would be with His Church all days, until the end of time Matthew 28:20). Christians!! Those who are members of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I invite you, stand up! do it! stand up from your keyboard and give glory to God that you are part of THIS CHURCH, HIS! CHURCH! A-men Alleluia! WOOOO!!! Ok that felt good, almost…lost…my…cool there (in the words of the grinch. Gee can you tell what I just watched).

 The idea that the Church is merely a passing phase until the restored kingdom of Israel arrives is found  nowhere in Sacred Scripture as I have demonstrated. Worse, this view contradicts clear biblical evidence that the Kingdom of God is the Church. Leading promoters of this false view of the rapture teach that the Catholic Church is the false religion that will align itself with the Antichrist, the whore of Babylon in Revelation 18. Pure and utter dribble isn't it?

 The next argument against this is a faulty view of Israel. The OT is fulfilled in the NT, no serious Biblical scholar will debate that, sorry. Hey am I just being zealous again presuming to teach what I do not know? Let's take a closer look. The OT priesthood is fulfilled in the priesthood of Christ. The OT sacrifices were fulfilled in the sacrifice of Calvary. Likewise the OT Israel is fulfilled in the NT Church the New Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). SO what are you sayin Verum? I'm saying that the Protestants give the Jews more credit than they deserve!!!! YUP I said it, now watch me be attacked and labeled an anti-Semite. Someone will do it, just watch CAF'ers. OT prophecies find their fulfillment in the Church. There will be NO return to the OT Israel as God's covenant people since the NT Church is the new and eternal covenant people of God. To equate the nation of Israel created in 1948 by the U.N., a secular, anti-Christian, institution with the OT covenant nation of Israel shows a faulty understanding of both history and Scripture. The OT Israel was established by God on Mount Sinai as part of the OT covenant given to Moses. That is why Israel was a covenant nation. The current nation of Israel has NO RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE to CHRISTIANS. However,..we do believe the Jews are still in God's plan, as St. Paul taught us in Romans 11. One day they will enter the Church and become part of the NT chosen people.

A faulty view of 1 Thessalonians 4. Nowhere in this passage does St. Paul teach a secret coming of Christ. In this passage Paul teaches the resurrection of the dead at Christs second coming. The Thessalonians were apparently concerned about Christians who died before the time of Jesus’ Second Coming would not share in His triumphant return. Paul assures the Thessalonians that “the dead in Christ will rise first.” Then Christians who are still alive will join “together with them…meet the Lord in the air” Thus, “we shall always be with the Lord.” Paul is merely consoling the Thessalonians that all will share in Christs coming and descend with him back to Earth. Paul speaks of Christs coming, not comings plural, which would indicate more than one. The arrival of Christ is announced by an Archangel and a trumpet blast, gee some secret rapture, pffffffft. Nowhere does this passage mention anything about secrelty coming to whisk away believers to take them back to heaven to escape tribulation. It doesn’t mention seven years OR tribulation. More importantly there is NO mention of Christ, switching direction it says he will “descend from heaven”.
Since I have butchered his argument so bad lastly, a **FAULTY VIEW** of Matthew 24:38-41; "For us as in those days before the flood...they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away so ill be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left." Jesus is using these examples about the unexpectedness of his return for crying out loud, Protestants, and Dispensationalists are reading a secret rapture into the text. If the secret rapture of the Church were true, we should expect such a momentous event to be explicitly taught in the Bible and by the early Church Fathers. In fact, Scripture never teaches more than ONE future coming, the "coming" of Christ is always singular. Likewise the Church Fathers always teach of ONE coming, at the end of time. End of story, I don't expect you will see EnterCanaan post on this thread again but bet your bones he will be reading it. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Amen.

 

[EnchantedEve]

hugs? :hug1:

That’s cute!