Bible contradiction- need help

[EnterCanaan]

1. We are not saved by works. This is difficult to understand at first, it was for me, but if you have the correct vocabulary, then you can explain it without disparity. BELIEF and FAITH are both the same words, one is a verb, one is a noun. Both of these are works. This is established for us by God in his Word: and we read in Hebrews 11:1:
   Now **faith **is the **substance **of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
   So by the definition of FAITH, which is the same as BELIEVING is given here by God. And we learn that faith and believing has SUBSTANCE to it. SUBSTANCE IMPLIES WORK. and we are not saved by our work.

Let me say that again. WE are not saved by OUR works. Oh my, but then by whos work are we saved. that would be CHRIST. it is HIS work that saves us, and nothing you can do can contribute to that.

So what is the contradiction then, there is none. The good works that a person does, are a RESULT of the grace of God. Meaning, once God has saved you, once your election is complete and you are given a new resurrected spirit, THENNNNNNNN AS A RESULTTTTTTTT you begin to have good works in your life SUCH ASSSSS BELIEVING AND FAITH… it is Gods faith in you. GODS FAITH IN YOUUUUU is the reason why a person has faith. IT IS GODS BELIEF IN YOU, is the reason why you believe. Then we can understand all the verses about work and faith.

1. Predestination is Gods salvatin program. Seeing how everyhuman being is born into sin. And the wages of sin is death, we are all born destined for hell. But what about those who become saved, they must of had a saviour right? A saviour that did all the work to wash that sins away. And so it is those people, who had there sins washed by the blood of the Lamb, who are the elect. Election is another word for predestination.

so what becomes of all those who are born into sin and never come to God, well then when they die, they die both body and soul. The body because it is buried in the ground, it becomes dust. The soul because it was never alive to begin with, it was born in sin and never was cleaned. So this is point 5

1. Hell is simply death, to be under the wrath of God is to be in sin, to be in sin is to be dead spiritually, to be spiritually dead is to be seperated from God. His hand is thusly withdrawn from you and the hand of Satan is over you. So when you die in this state, you are forever seperated, and dead spiritually, and then your body is thrown into a grave, and that is that. You never come back with consceience thought again. Your done. But this is a mercy, because the myth of the fire and torment of hell is not real, they are simply parabolic words to describe a spiritual truth.

The words torment and suffer in this case, are defined as, and mean, SORROW. OR SORROWING. The torment of jesus’s parents when He was 12 and was teaching in the temple for three days alone, well His parents were in torment. the same word used in reference to hell. Torment, is sorrow. Sorrow from being seperated from God.

This is called presenting a valid biblical teaching, If you wish to palavar in humility and charity I will oblidge. But just saying NOOOO YOUR WRONG is not a valid response.

 

[inkaneer]

. . . This is called presenting a valid biblical teaching, If you wish to palavar in humility and charity I will oblidge. But just saying NOOOO YOUR WRONG is not a valid response.

And that, of course is your interpretation of what scripture means. What if I disagree? Who is to say that you are correct or I am? Scripture surely can’t because we both use the same scripture but we interpret it differently. Look at Baptism and what scripture says of it. Then look at all the different beliefs about Baptism. Some say it is a sacrament, others say it is a mere ordinance. Some say it saves, others deny that it does anything. Some say it remits sin, others deny that it does. Some say infants are to be baptized others say no it is for believing adults only. And they all use the same scripture to substantiate their beliefs. So who is correct and how do we tell. But it is even worse than that. How do we know that the 27 books we call the New Testament are inspired? Scripture does not tell us what is or is not inspired. Take the Epistle to Philemon. It is the shortest of the NT books. It is essentially a private letter from Paul to someone named Philemon asking him to accept a runaway slave back. Paul does not condemn slavery in the letter and he does not ask Philemon to free the slave. So why is it inspired writing? Somewhere in the past we accepted someone’s idea that these books were inspired. That person was a guy named Athanasius and he lived in the fourth century. He is the very first one to name the 27 books we now have in our bibles as the New Testament as inspired. But are they and how do we know? Same can be said for the Old Testament. Who and by what authority said these books were inspired??? As far as I can tell it wasn’t God. All evidence points to man as making the claim. So how do we know these men were correct?

 

[EnterCanaan]

And that, of course is your interpretation of what scripture means. What if I disagree? Who is to say that you are correct or I am? Scripture surely can’t because we both use the same scripture but we interpret it differently. Look at Baptism and what scripture says of it. Then look at all the different beliefs about Baptism. Some say it is a sacrament, others say it is a mere ordinance. Some say it saves, others deny that it does anything. Some say it remits sin, others deny that it does. Some say infants are to be baptized others say no it is for believing adults only. And they all use the same scripture to substantiate their beliefs. So who is correct and how do we tell. But it is even worse than that. How do we know that the 27 books we call the New Testament are inspired? Scripture does not tell us what is or is not inspired. Take the Epistle to Philemon. It is the shortest of the NT books. It is essentially a private letter from Paul to someone named Philemon asking him to accept a runaway slave back. Paul does not condemn slavery in the letter and he does not ask Philemon to free the slave. So why is it inspired writing? Somewhere in the past we accepted someone’s idea that these books were inspired. That person was a guy named Athanasius and he lived in the fourth century. He is the very first one to name the 27 books we now have in our bibles as the New Testament as inspired. But are they and how do we know? Same can be said for the Old Testament. Who and by what authority said these books were inspired??? As far as I can tell it wasn’t God. All evidence points to man as making the claim. So how do we know these men were correct?

Then if you disagree, present a valid, well written response to it, presenting your argument. ARGUE THE ARGUMENT!! don’t change the topic.

 

[inkaneer]

Then if you disagree, present a valid, well written response to it, presenting your argument. ARGUE THE ARGUMENT!! don’t change the topic.

I disagree again for two principle reasons. First, before anyone can “ARGUE THE ARGUMENT!!” there must be a evidentiary proof that the standard to be used [in this case scripture] is really a bonafide standard. If we can not prove that then any argument is pure folly. My second reason, after the first is resolved, is what interpretation are we going to agree on. Here there are as many interpretations as there are denominations in christianity. Even if the first could be proved [which it can’t] the second would still doom the debate. I say the first reason can not be proved but we [meaning christianity] have accepted the decision of men from the fourth century and thus a consensus is achieved, as far as the New Testament is concerned. That does not constitute empirical proof but is as close as we can get to it.

Now the task is to prove your interpretation is correct. How are you going to do that? I don’t know the answer to that question. You posted several so called rules yet not only are these man made rules but I think you violate your own rules. For instance you say, “Rule3:When God repeates Himself, the thing is establsihed.” But in John chapter six Jesus repeats Himself several times.

“48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” [John 6:48-58]

There in eleven verses Jesus repeats himself twice. In verses 48-51 Jesus establishes the statement. In verses 52-55 He repeats it the first time and in verse 56-58 He repeats it the second time. Then He does one more thing. He does exactly what He said in John 6:48-58 at the Last Supper. He takes the bread of the Jewish seder meal and blesses it and consecrates it into the Eucharist.

"26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
[Matthew 26:26-28]

Mark 14:22 and Luke 22:19 record the same. So according to your rules the Eucharist is established. But it seems your rules are arbitrary because you deny the Eucharist is the body and Blood of Christ. To you it is nothing more than a mere symbol at best. But Jesus never said it was a symbol. Jesus told the Jews that His body was food indeed and His Blood drink indeed [John 6:55]. Jesus also said His words were spiritual [John 6:63] Spiritual does not mean figurative as you would like to think. It is obvious from the narrative of John 6 that the Jews took Jesus’ words literally and materially [John 6:52]. But in verse 63 Jesus in effect says His words were not material but spiritual. He does not correct the Jews thinking that His words were literal. He didn’t need too because they were literal. Unlike the OT bread from heaven in the dessert which was a materiality the NT bread from heaven was a spirituality. Neither the Jews nor Jesus’ own disciples understood it until the Last Supper.

So your rules are not universally applied. You employ them when it befits you and you ignore them when they don’t.

 

[EnterCanaan]

your making fun of my rules, in ignorance calling them man made. Yet they come from the bible, and in order so I never ever ever forget them and how important they are to understanding the bible, I wrote them down as three rules. To MAKE SURE I apply them to every single verse in the bible.

And you are forgetting rule two. THE WORD IS SPOKEN IN PARABLES. WITHOUT A PARABLE HE DID NOT SPEAK.

This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever-This **is a **parable.

Jesus said very clearly the bread which He is speaking of is NOT SUCH as the fathers ate AND DIED, meaning flour and water. But he who eats this SPIRITUAL BREAD will live forever. It’s called a parable. An earthly story, with a spiritual meaning.

The Eucharist is bread, flour and water, it is nourishment sure, it can give you a little energyEARTHLY]. But it is not what Jesus said, He said "eat this in REMEMBRANCE of MEJESUS/SPIRITUAL]. IT IS A CEREMONY.

Eat this in remembrance of me, he who eats this bread will live forever.-- its a parable. the BREAD is the WORD OF LIFE. The word is spoken by God, the word is the word of life, the word became flesh and dwelt among us, the word is truth, the word is faith, the word is everlasting. Today, we find the word contained in the Bible, which is called the word of God. The word of God is the body of Christ, it is the fullness of Christ. not flour and water. Its called a parable.

Drink this cup, it is my blood, he who drinks of my blood will live forever—its a parable, a cup of wine or juice is not going to redeem you, or give you faith, or make you saved, it is nourishment sure. The blood of Christ in the cup, in remembrance of Him, is to remember the sacrifice He made, the blood of the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth, the shed blood of Christ on the cross, the cup of blood is a parable pointing to the shed blood of Christ which He applies to you. His work, the cup is in remembrance of Him. It is a ceremony, not a law, not something to be practiced hoping it will get you saved or give you faith or do good works. That is what you do, it means nothing, your wasting your time, your contrary to the bible. You are bound by your ceremony and tradition, your laws are your burden, and a yoke you must bear. I live by the word of God and grace.

And your verses are not repeated words meaning it is established. all you did was bend the bible to fit your doctrine. That is not letting the bible be used for correction and instruction, that is making up your own bible.

These verses are repeated. I think you can see the difference between being serious and being a joke. Stop being a joke. these verses are from the bible.I didn’t make it up.

Is 28:10 For **precept **must be upon precept, **precept **upon precept, **line **upon line, **line **upon line, here a little, there a little.
Is 28:13 But the word of the Lord was to them, “**Precept **upon precept, **precept **upon precept, **line **upon line, **line **upon line, here a little there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and caught.
1 Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Precept UPON precept, line UPON line, hear a little there a little, is COMPARING… COMPARING Spiritual things with spiritual. What is it that is the only spiritual thing in the existance? What thing from God, spoken by Gods mouth, is currently available to us?

That would be the bible, and the bible is Gods Law book, and the Bible is spiritual.
Spiritual and Law. A Precept IS A LAW. all this means is compare scripture to scripture. never take one verse as at stands and make a point by it. you will always be wrong. because you haven’t yet compared all the other verses relating and against the bible as a whole.

Also, establishing something is a GOD given biblical rule. You think it is man made? really? it is a verse in the bible. It is a verse which should not be forgotten, as every word, every verse in important, is from the mouth of God. If you have problem trusting in the bible as the perfect word of God, then that is your problem. And for your information, the text has been proven, do some research. Your 4th century blathering is void. Dig a little deeper and learn how the text in the original language is authentically from the mouth of God.

I don’t need to prove my faith to you or anybody. I believe, I don’t need to battle about your supposed pre-condition for a valid argument. THE TEXT IS REAL. How many threads are dedicated to just such a topic. And you want to begin your point by using such an arbitrary, tired, exhausted, used, old argument that has no bearing.

all of these question presuppose a person believes the bible is the word of God. That is why they ask biblical questions. So please. PLEASE… move on from you tired boring argument. the bible is the bible, your not going to change it or prove it not to be or … ORRRR. .DERAILL a topic with an atheistic claim. it is the bible. the end.

 

[inkaneer]

your making fun of my rules, in ignorance calling them man made. Yet they come from the bible, and in order so I never ever ever forget them and how important they are to understanding the bible, I wrote them down as three rules. To MAKE SURE I apply them to every single verse in the bible.

You say they are your rules. I said they were man made. I was correct.

And you are forgetting rule two. THE WORD IS SPOKEN IN PARABLES. WITHOUT A PARABLE HE DID NOT SPEAK.

Actually Jesus did speak to His disciples without using parables and when He did use parables it was only to the crowsa. This was explained in the scriptures in Matthew 13:10-11.

"10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them [the crowds] in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.”

This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever-This is a parable.Jesus said very clearly the bread which He is speaking of is NOT SUCH as the fathers ate AND DIED, meaning flour and water. But he who eats this SPIRITUAL BREAD will live forever. It’s called a parable. An earthly story, with a spiritual meaning. The Eucharist is bread, flour and water, it is nourishment sure, it can give you a little energyEARTHLY]. But it is not what Jesus said, He said "eat this in REMEMBRANCE of MEJESUS/SPIRITUAL]. IT IS A CEREMONY. Eat this in remembrance of me, he who eats this bread will live forever.-- its a parable. the BREAD is the WORD OF LIFE. The word is spoken by God, the word is the word of life, the word became flesh and dwelt among us, the word is truth, the word is faith, the word is everlasting. Today, we find the word contained in the Bible, which is called the word of God. The word of God is the body of Christ, it is the fullness of Christ. not flour and water. Its called a parable.
Drink this cup, it is my blood, he who drinks of my blood will live forever—its a parable, a cup of wine or juice is not going to redeem you, or give you faith, or make you saved, it is nourishment sure. The blood of Christ in the cup, in remembrance of Him, is to remember the sacrifice He made, the blood of the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth, the shed blood of Christ on the cross, the cup of blood is a parable pointing to the shed blood of Christ which He applies to you. His work, the cup is in remembrance of Him. It is a ceremony, not a law, not something to be practiced hoping it will get you saved or give you faith or do good works. That is what you do, it means nothing, your wasting your time, your contrary to the bible. You are bound by your ceremony and tradition, your laws are your burden, and a yoke you must bear. I live by the word of God and grace.

Where does Jesus say that the bread come down from heaven is the word of God? I see where Jesus says that the bread come down from heaven is his flesh. You will find that in John 6:51:

“51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
[John 5:51]

Now I realize that Jesus is the Word but John’s gospel clearly makes a distinction here by stating that the bread from heaven is Jesus’ flesh. As far as the Eucharist being a rememberance the better translation is memorial as in a tombstone is a memporial of a person but Jesus will have no tombstone so His tombstown is the Eucharist. That is how He is to be remembered as proven in the scriptures by the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They were disciples. They knew Jesus. Yet they did not recognize Him on the road. Even when Jesus explained the scriptures to them they did not recognize him. It was only when Jesus took the bread, said the Eucharistic blessing “THIS IS MY BODY” then disappearred that they recognized Him and they did so only in the Eucharist.

 

[inkaneer]

And your verses are not repeated words meaning it is established. all you did was bend the bible to fit your doctrine. That is not letting the bible be used for correction and instruction, that is making up your own bible.

These verses are repeated. I think you can see the difference between being serious and being a joke. Stop being a joke. these verses are from the bible.I didn’t make it up.

Did I say you made them up? Where? I said they were you rules based on your interpretation of scripture. You want to wrap yourself in the mantle of the official interpreter of the scriptures. You have no such authority. Interpretations of scripture are like belly buttons. Everyone has one. That’s why there is so much fracturing and division in protestantism. Sola scriptura and private interpretation just does not work.

Precept UPON precept, line UPON line, hear a little there a little, is COMPARING… COMPARING Spiritual things with spiritual. What is it that is the only spiritual thing in the existance? What thing from God, spoken by Gods mouth, is currently available to us? That would be the bible, and the bible is Gods Law book, and the Bible is spiritual.

Well that is all fine and dandy if it were true. But is it? Maybe I could buy into it if the scripture said that all I needed was scripture. But I can not find anywhere where scripture says that. Instead what I do find is scripture calling the church the pillar and bulwark of truth. That’s an odd thing to say if indeed scripture was what upheld truth. Then I find scripture telling me to hold onto the teachings received by word of mouth as well as by letter. That most gefinitely contradicts sola scriptura,

And for your information, the text has been proven, do some research. Your 4th century blathering is void. Dig a little deeper and learn how the text in the original language is authentically from the mouth of God.

Yeah, well you know I have done some research. And you know what I found? We don’t have any of the original language scripture manuscripts. It seems that they were written on highly biodegradable material and did not survive. All we have are copies which originated in the later centuries and we have no way of knowing whether they are accurate copies or not. If God really wanted His word to be preserved why did He have the writers use biodegradable material? Why not stone? Worked for the 10 Commandments. Worked for the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Syrians, the Babylonians, Medes, Persians not to mention the Maya, Aztecs and the Inca’s. So did God really want His word preserved in writing???

As for what you call my “4th century blathering”, I realize that the fourth century is a little before your time and so is the fifth, after all your beliefs are at most a 16th century invention and the fourth century is a little before your time. But yes, there was a fourth century and that was when the canon of the bible was determined. Unless, of course, you belief in fairy tales like, Once upon a time the Bible just dropped out of heaven, leather bound and pages gilt edged; written in the King’s English and with the words of Jesus in red ink. We Catholics were there in the fourth century as we were at Pentecost and in the catacombs. It was we Catholics who defined the Trinity. Did you think it was scripture? Sorry, the Trinity was and still is defined in Greek philosophical concepts of substance and person. Same is true about Jesus and His two natures. These concepts were totally absent from the scriptures. Like the biblical canon you got them from us Catholics in the fourth and fifth centuries.

I don’t need to prove my faith to you or anybody. I believe, I don’t need to battle about your supposed pre-condition for a valid argument. THE TEXT IS REAL. How many threads are dedicated to just such a topic. And you want to begin your point by using such an arbitrary, tired, exhausted, used, old argument that has no bearing.

all of these question presuppose a person believes the bible is the word of God. That is why they ask biblical questions. So please. PLEASE… move on from you tired boring argument. the bible is the bible, your not going to change it or prove it not to be or … ORRRR. .DERAILL a topic with an atheistic claim. it is the bible. the end.

The text is real. No one says it wasn’t. But it is not the text that we object to. It is your interpretation of the text. Now if you can understand that and realize that while the text is divinely inspired your interpretation of it is not then you are ne the right path. But as long as you portray yourself as the God appointed divinely inspired interpreter you will get nowhere.

 

[EnterCanaan]

Actually, what I did was trust in the bible, and from the many verses and complicated themes, I pulled together one congruent teaching in harmony.

also, your logic is flawed obviously because I said I MADE THREE RULES FOR MYYYYYYY BENEFITITTTTTTT FORRRR MEEEEEE. So I would not forget to apply them when studying scripture.

The result is that I remember to apply them to scripture, and you have no idea what Im talking about because you have never seriously studied the bible, or if you do, you don’t completely trust in the bible, or if you do, you seemed to have forgotten to apply teachings of the bible to the bible.

Bible doctrine is not my doctrine, and biblical doctrine is the authority over all other doctrine. When Jesus said I am the bread of life, it was a parable. Remember, He spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. He was speaking metaphorically, and saying that HE[JESUS, THE WORD] **IS **the way to everlasting life. That He[JESUS, THE WORD] **is **the bread, the metaphorical bread, the spiritual bread. He wasn’t talking about a physical piece of flour and water, that is a sign pointing to the spiritual meaning which is the THE **WORD **IS THE BREAD. We eat bread for nourishment, Jesus **is **spiritual nourishment. His Word, which is the bible is the same Word, that was made flesh. The word is Spiritual, as is the nature of God. The word is the bread of life. Jesus is the word made flesh. Jesus, who is the word, is the bread of life. Where is the bread of life found, it is found in the word. Where is the word found today? In the bible! The words of God are in the bible, The word is the bread of life. It means seek Jesus in His word. Read the bible. Study the bible Eating bread as a sign of Christianity and faith, is alll work. it is WORK. We are not saved by our work. It means nothing to God. Studying the word of God has spiritual value, eating bread has physical value, it is a MEMORIAL fine, which is in REMEMBRANCE of Him.

But as long as you portray yourself as the God appointed divinely inspired interpreter you will get nowhere

Your cliche and tired last resort tactic is stupid.

I present sound, well thought out, logical biblical apologetic. I invite you to discuss instead of attack.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Your cliche and tired last resort tactic is stupid.

I present sound, well thought out, logical biblical apologetic. I invite you to discuss instead of attack.

BWHAHAHA YOU are honestly presenting “arguments” that are a JOKE I “DID” “Discuss” why are you wrong, I posed several long pages that you obviously did not even read. You make comments like the WHOLE Bible is a parable, and in later sentences say you present logical Biblical teaching your thought process is the furthest thing from logic I have ever seen in my life. These are close to the most egregious posts ever posted on this forum. Seriously, I will promise you that even Protestant Bible scholars would read your posts LAUGH and say wow, “this guy is trying to prove Dispensationalism to Catholics? Take him off the soap box”. Seriously it is like one big bad joke. I clearly and concisely cited each one of your claims and showed you how blatantly false it was and how your misinterpreting Scripture, and I did it using a KJV Disepnsationalist Bible, the Scofield, and still you cling to Heresy. And then what happens, inkaneer does it AGAIN!!! And still you cling to Heresy, I am beginning to be very sad for you, that there may be no hope for your soul.And despite many of your posts containing very less than intelligent comments NO ONE has called you stupid, so you are the only one on the attack. And rightfully so, how does one argue with someone intelligently who thinks passages in the Bible that ARE NOT PARABLES, are PARABLES. That is just, I don’t even know what to make of that. You are more lost than a Jehova’s witness and that’s bad.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

1. Predestination is Gods salvatin program.

No it isn’t it is NELSON DARBY’S salvation plan and was completely unheard of in Biblical translation until the 1800s on planet Earth, you are very sadly mistaken and your soul needs much praying for. Because of your staunch disobedience and hard hardheadedness of rejecting the truth of Jesus Christ and his Church you are headed down a very bad path friend.

This is called presenting a valid biblical teaching, If you wish to palavar in humility and charity I will oblidge. But just saying NOOOO YOUR WRONG is not a valid response.

I don’t know who you are referring to? But NOT ONE person has just said “NOOOO YOUR WRONG” If you would actually read our posts and say something intelligent in rebuttal it might work better, but you can’t all you did was lamely repeat yourself in a bit of a different way on this forum, now you deny the physical place of Hell. You are losing more and more fellow Protestant support by the minute. I wish your preacher could read this because I guarantee he would be embarrassed that one of this congregation is so badly educated.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

(Cont…)

False this is a twisted interpretation and your interpretation alone. That verse is ABSOLUTELY NOT A PARABLE!!! Do you know what a “parable” is? It is a story that Jesus told when he was teaching to make a point to those he was speaking to. It was understood the story may not have been an actual event but is told to convey a certain message. That statement is so crazy I really don’t know how else to address it.

1 Peter 4:6 (King James Version)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Absolutely NO Biblical scholar concurs. Sine theorize the dead mentioned are those that were flood victims in the OT but most all Biblical scholars accept that the dead being referred to are Christians who have heard the Gospel. Dr. Scofield affirms this in his footnotes of the KJV.

Nothing to do with purgatory.

So my friend, I just gave sound biblical teaching, what do you say, are you willing to let the bible be used for, CORRECTION and instruction in knowledge.

Or do you still know more. Good show presuming to teach that which you don’t know and meanwhile blasting me by calling me un-christian. i’ll chalk it up to zeal on your part.

You did not provide ANY sound Biblical teaching, where are your credentials? All you did was quote Scripture and give your opinion which is twisted and wrong we shall discuss how Dispensationlism is bizarre to the extreme in a moment. What you preach and litter on these boards is false doctrine, those who teach falsely have harsh repercussions, I would keep that in mind sir. I never called you un-Christian I said that you are confused for one, so we shall work to un-confuse you.

Try reading this over fully please EnterCanaan…

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

I present here Canaans posts that I am responding to…​

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnterCanaan View Post
Its called a parable, and this is its meaning, nothing to do about beatific visions or purgatory. I just explained it in harmony with the bible, Its Bible doctrine.
False this is a twisted interpretation and your interpretation alone. That verse is ABSOLUTELY NOT A PARABLE!!! Do you know what a “parable” is? It is a story that Jesus told when he was teaching to make a point to those he was speaking to. It was understood the story may not have been an actual event but is told to convey a certain message. That statement is so crazy I really don’t know how else to address it.

1 Peter 4:6 (King James Version)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnterCanaan View Post
Right. The gospel, that is the word of God, was preached to those who are dead, meaning spiritually dead, and that is the whole entire world as we are all born into sin, and as the gospel was preached, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and the Holy spirit descends and testifies with your spirit, and you are given a new resurrected spirit and reborn, meaning “ALIVE” and freed from the prison of Sin, and the curse of God’s law which judges all men, but we are thereby freed from the judgment of the law by the grace of God and the blood of Christ​

YOU COMPLETELY misunderstand this verse. This is merely a foreshadowing of Christ If you look in the KJV footnotes of the Dr. Scofield verison(very smart guy for a protestant, but a dispensationalist himself ::Eye roll: it asserts that this is a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ, and Dr. Scofield as a Bible scholar and dispensationalist certainly has more authority over Scripture interpretation than you sir! Touche! Scofield also asserts that the Hebrew word means “possess” or “secure possession” meaning to “BUY”. Again alluding to Christs coming to Earth

FALSE a correct rough translation of this passage actually is “set up” or more akin in English to “set up” not “established” which can have different meaning.

Wrong again ol’ chum. A close look at the ancient Hebrew texts which are available a number of places for any curious scholar to view and double check with various accredited translators will show that the word for “stand” actually translates better to “CONTINUE” which is much different an implication than a permanent thing.Your Bible scholarship is faulty AT BEST, and this is not zeal speaking just plain facts so chalk it up to whatever you want, I say repent now the Lord is bringing the truth to you.

Your claims of election and predestination are mere misunderstandings of both things in the Bible and are based on very bizarre Bible interpretation as I shall later show all of Catholic Answers Forums where this gobbledygook originates. Again I warn you to repent ye false rabbi! False teacher of men, you serve to frustrate and confuse the truth of Gospel and the Church, renounce your ways before it is too late and accept the truth of Jesus Christs Church! The Lord pleads to you!

----If one goes back and looks at page four, it can be seen in full what I am responding to him about------

OH-HO HO! it does eh? The foundation of the world DOES NOT mean creation of the world, sorry. And when you are quoting Eph 1:5 from KJV the translation is simply bad here, but that’s because the KJV is a bad translation. The word for “predestined” is actually destined, a look at the original documents reveals no such word as “pre”.

Again you mislead and to refute you is simple God’s creation of the world does not mean the “foundation” of the world, these are prophecies about Christ and the time of Christ, you are way off base, and many a Protestant theologian would laugh at you for such an assertion. FALSE predestination is NOT Biblical. Very few will be in heaven in relation to world, yes but that is the only truth here.

(See Cont…)

Since EnterCanaan you fail to actually read my posts, and provide any sort of intelligible rebuttal I feel I must re-quote myself, due to the fact that maybe your internet is broken and you can’t view previous pages?

 

[inkaneer]

Actually, what I did was trust in the bible, and from the many verses and complicated themes, I pulled together one congruent teaching in harmony.

I trust in the Bible too, just like you. But unlike you I don’t trust in my interpretation of the Bible. You see I look to see how the early church interpreted scripture. And when I do that I find that your interpretation is completely different than that of the early church. Now who am I to believe here? You, a johnny come lately or a church with a 2,000 year history of teaching a non changing doctrine? Jesus didn’t establish 40,000 churches with differing doctrines. He founded only one church. It isn’t difficult at all to find that one church. All you need to do is look for the one that has a history going back to Pentecost. The one the scripture calls the ECCLESIA KATA HOLIS. [Acts 9:31]. That was the clue for Ignatius third bishop of Antioch after Peter and Elvodius to write in 110 AD:

“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains *. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

also, your logic is flawed obviously because I said I MADE THREE RULES FOR MYYYYYYY BENEFITITTTTTTT FORRRR MEEEEEE. So I would not forget to apply them when studying scripture.

You make up your own rules and by doing so, tilt the playing field in your favor. This is what is wrong with protestantism and why protestantism is so fractured. You guys rail against the Catholic Church for having a pope but you set your own rules and in effect you are your own pope. We have one pope you guys have millions of them and they can’t agree on doctrine.

The result is that I remember to apply them to scripture, and you have no idea what Im talking about because you have never seriously studied the bible, or if you do, you don’t completely trust in the bible, or if you do, you seemed to have forgotten to apply teachings of the bible to the bible.

Oh, you are so wrong. I have studied the Bible. In addition I studied the early church Fathers and read how they interpreted the scripture. You may not know or may not want to believe it but you stand on their shoulders. You have accepted their interpretations of doctrines. You certainly accepted their scripture canon. You accepted their doctrine on the Trinity, the person of Christ, You didn’t come up with that on your own and your rules would not lead you to the same conclusions. But do you think that you are better that the Early church writers or do you think you know more than they did? Many of these men held the very original manuscripts of the scriptures not the copies of translations that you have. Do you know that there exists a church with an unchanging doctrinal belief that has been taught in every century starting with the Apostles and continuing down to the present day? And do you know that church is not yours? As much as you might like to think that all “churches” are the same, they are not. Jesus established a church and His Prayer to the Father was that His followers be one as He and the Father were one. So if there is only one church and as Paul writes in Colossians 1:24, that church is the Body of Christ don’t you want to be in it? And I don’t mean partially in it either. I mean in it as totally immersed in it. I can tell you that I am.*

 

[inkaneer]

Bible doctrine is not my doctrine, and biblical doctrine is the authority over all other doctrine. When Jesus said I am the bread of life, it was a parable. Remember, He spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. He was speaking metaphorically, and saying that HE[JESUS, THE WORD] **IS **the way to everlasting life. That He[JESUS, THE WORD] **is **the bread, the metaphorical bread, the spiritual bread. He wasn’t talking about a physical piece of flour and water, that is a sign pointing to the spiritual meaning which is the THE **WORD **IS THE BREAD. We eat bread for nourishment, Jesus **is **spiritual nourishment. His Word, which is the bible is the same Word, that was made flesh. The word is Spiritual, as is the nature of God. The word is the bread of life. Jesus is the word made flesh. Jesus, who is the word, is the bread of life. Where is the bread of life found, it is found in the word. Where is the word found today? In the bible! The words of God are in the bible, The word is the bread of life. It means seek Jesus in His word. Read the bible. Study the bible Eating bread as a sign of Christianity and faith, is alll work. it is WORK. We are not saved by our work. It means nothing to God. Studying the word of God has spiritual value, eating bread has physical value, it is a MEMORIAL fine, which is in REMEMBRANCE of Him.

The Bread of Life discourse in John 6 was no parable. Remember Jesus always explained His parables to His disciples. But Jesus does not explain the Bread of Life discourse to His disciples except to say that His words were spiritual in nature not material. [We already went over this please see my last two posts. I would appreciate if you would read them because if not then you are only wasting my time.] Jesus specifically identifies the Bread of life as His Flesh not the word as you claim. Who do I believe here, you or Jesus? See John 6:51. The OT manna was material food. The NT manna would be His flesh and would be spiritual food. The Bread of Life discourse was prophesy. That prophesy would be fulfilled at the Last Supper and also at Golgotha.

“But as long as you portray yourself as the God appointed divinely inspired interpreter you will get nowhere.”

Your cliche and tired last resort tactic is stupid. I present sound, well thought out, logical biblical apologetic. I invite you to discuss instead of attack.

Not really. Your reasoning is flawed from the get go. You start with the idea of sola scriptura the very idea of which is contradicted by scripture. Read what Paul tells the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2:15.

“15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” [2 Thess 2:15]

That passage is the word of God and is just as valid today as when Paul wrote it 2,000 years ago. So how can you say you present sound, well thought out, logical, biblical apologetic when you contradict the 2000 year teaching of christianity and the very basis of your argument is unscriptural???

 

[EnterCanaan]

I did read your posts, and my response addressed that. I’ll do it again. They are not my rules. Fine, don’t call them rules, apparently you can’t see past that word. Call them teachings. These are three distinct teachings in the bible, that the bible teaches us. I wrote them down for my benefit because I never wanted to forget that they always apply, and out of the 1000’s of verses, it could get frustrating to always turn to them to verify. So I wrote them down, because they always must be applied when studying scripture accurately. Says God at least. but I trust in the bible so I follow the guidelines which God Himself set forth.

The fact that you can’t remember that Jesus is the word made flesh, seems to not be apart of your calculations. There is no difference between Jesus flesh, and Jesus. They both mean the same thing. THE WORD MADE FLESH. The word is completely identified with THE BIBLE and JESUS. THE SAME WORD OF LIFE. When Jesus says eat MY FLESH, He is saying MY WORD. That is who He is. He is the Word made flesh. Jesus is the Word. He is saying sustain your life, remember me, find me, in my Word. The same word which began with Moses, and continued on to 95Ad when the Apostle John completed the Book of Revelation. That is one book. One continuous teaching. One Word. All from the mouth of God, who is Christ, who is the Holy Spirit, who is the Word.

Eat my flesh, this is spiritual language, SPIRITUAL. IT IS A PARABLE.
Eat my flesh—Eat my Word. Be sustained by my word. My word are the words of life.

Also, WITHOUT A PARABLE, HE DID NOT SPEAK!!

And let’s review How Jesus answered His Apostles when they asked Him about His parables.

Luke 12:41-42 (King James Version)
Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

He ANSWERED WITH A PARABLE.

Your forgetting one important thing, that is the scripture is exactly the word God wanted for us to have. Indeed if all the teachings of Christ could be recorded it would fill the world. BUTTTTT my friend, all we have to concern our self with is the word which God gave us. We only need to focus on the words in the bible, because these are the words God wanted for us to have. And in His scripture, we learn that without a parable, HE did not speak. The same HE is applied to God, and to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit. Or did you forget about the trinity nature of God which you so vehemently try to thrust at me as a point of contention, like I am unaware of it or its teachings, which by the way, ARE BIBLE DOCTRINE. Are you kidding me, where do you think men of this world got the idea of Trinity, they got it from READING THE BIBLE. Spiritual words spoken by God, and within His word, is the Doctrine of HIM being God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. So the church didn’t bestow this awesome teaching out of the kindness of their heart, it is in the bible all along.

That is the Bread of Life, His word. And God is spiritual, and He is speaking to men on earth teaching spiritual truth, is He not? So then, the bible, which is His Word, are spiritual words, because only spiritual beings can live FOREVER. thus they are spiritual words. Words of LIFE. Spoken to us in earthly language. Oh my, what is that the definition of. A PARABLE. A parable is an EARTHLY STORY with a SPIRITUAL MEANING. Every single word in the bible, every word, every dot, everything, is a parable. If you don’t think its a parable, then That is EXACTLY what the purpose is. For He who has ears let him hear, for him who has eyes let him see, and understanding comes to his heart. He is tell you to look deeper than what the words say. Because it is a parable. Because you will never NEVER understand the bible if you can’t understand that. That is why so many people have so many different interpretations, they can’t even trust the bible enough to agree that what the bible teaches is from the mouth of God, thus it must be obeyed, thus, that means reading the bible in the light that it is spoken in parables, to compare scripture to scripture, and that if God repeats Himself, the thing is established. I wrote them down because if you notice it is only a handful of verses in the 1000s of verses of the bible, and I never wanted to forget them, so my interpretations would ALWAYS be correct.

Finally, what did Paul write in his epistle, OH that’s right, he wrote what God spoke. And what did God speak and Paul wrote, Paul wrote about obeying the doctrine of the WORD. Not Paul’s doctrine, Where do you suppose the Apostles, who then because the earthly church, got their doctrine from, those early generations of holy men, used the doctrine contained withing the scripture, the SAME WORD JESUS TAUGHT.

 

[inkaneer]

I did read your posts, and my response addressed that. I’ll do it again. They are not my rules. Fine, don’t call them rules, apparently you can’t see past that word. Call them teachings. These are three distinct teachings in the bible, that the bible teaches us. I wrote them down for my benefit because I never wanted to forget that they always apply, and out of the 1000’s of verses, it could get frustrating to always turn to them to verify. So I wrote them down, because they always must be applied when studying scripture accurately. Says God at least. but I trust in the bible so I follow the guidelines which God Himself set forth.

The fact that you can’t remember that Jesus is the word made flesh, seems to not be apart of your calculations. There is no difference between Jesus flesh, and Jesus. They both mean the same thing. THE WORD MADE FLESH. The word is completely identified with THE BIBLE and JESUS. THE SAME WORD OF LIFE. When Jesus says eat MY FLESH, He is saying MY WORD. That is who He is. He is the Word made flesh. Jesus is the Word. He is saying sustain your life, remember me, find me, in my Word. The same word which began with Moses, and continued on to 95Ad when the Apostle John completed the Book of Revelation. That is one book. One continuous teaching. One Word. All from the mouth of God, who is Christ, who is the Holy Spirit, who is the Word.

I am well aware that John cals Jesus the word made flesh. You will find that n John 1:14. However, Jesus in John 6:51 tells us exactly what the Bread from heaven is and it is not his word. It is His flesh" He confirms that at the last supper when he says the Bread is His body. So why do you totally ignore the literal words of Jesus?

 

[inkaneer]

Eat my flesh, this is spiritual language, SPIRITUAL. IT IS A PARABLE.
Eat my flesh—Eat my Word. Be sustained by my word. My word are the words of life.

Also, WITHOUT A PARABLE, HE DID NOT SPEAK!!

And let’s review How Jesus answered His Apostles when they asked Him about His parables.

Luke 12:41-42 (King James Version)
Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

He ANSWERED WITH A PARABLE.

Apparently you do not know what a parable is. John 6 is no parable. Jesus explains His parables to his disciples yet He does not explain the discourse in John 6. Furthermore, produce one recognized biblical scholar who says John 6 is a parable. I know of none but maybe you do. If so produce him.

Your forgetting one important thing, that is the scripture is exactly the word God wanted for us to have. Indeed if all the teachings of Christ could be recorded it would fill the world. BUTTTTT my friend, all we have to concern our self with is the word which God gave us. We only need to focus on the words in the bible, because these are the words God wanted for us to have. And in His scripture, we learn that without a parable, HE did not speak. The same HE is applied to God, and to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit. Or did you forget about the trinity nature of God which you so vehemently try to thrust at me as a point of contention, like I am unaware of it or its teachings, which by the way, ARE BIBLE DOCTRINE. Are you kidding me, where do you think men of this world got the idea of Trinity, they got it from READING THE BIBLE. Spiritual words spoken by God, and within His word, is the Doctrine of HIM being God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. So the church didn’t bestow this awesome teaching out of the kindness of their heart, it is in the bible all along.

I am forgetting nothing but you are. You forget that the Bible is not the only word of God that Jesus left with us. It maybe the only one you accept but then so what? You, like it or not are a johnny come lately. Before you and your protestant gumba’s came on the scene in the 16th century there existed over 1500 years of Christianity composed of three legitimate churches. They being The Catholic, The Coptic and The Orthodox. All three have valid sacraments, liturgy and priesthood. All three are Apostolic and all three maintain that there are two sources of divine revelation just as Paul proclaims in 2 Thess 2:15. Your Bible only [sola scriptura] doctrine is unscriptural. In fact, it is downright demonic. The Bible is not a self study guide to Christology it is a liturgical book to be used in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. That was the initial intention of the bishops who formulated the canon.

That is the Bread of Life, His word. And God is spiritual, and He is speaking to men on earth teaching spiritual truth, is He not? So then, the bible, which is His Word, are spiritual words, because only spiritual beings can live FOREVER. thus they are spiritual words. Words of LIFE. Spoken to us in earthly language. Oh my, what is that the definition of. A PARABLE. A parable is an EARTHLY STORY with a SPIRITUAL MEANING. Every single word in the bible, every word, every dot, everything, is a parable. If you don’t think its a parable, then That is EXACTLY what the purpose is. For He who has ears let him hear, for him who has eyes let him see, and understanding comes to his heart. He is tell you to look deeper than what the words say. Because it is a parable. Because you will never NEVER understand the bible if you can’t understand that. That is why so many people have so many different interpretations, they can’t even trust the bible enough to agree that what the bible teaches is from the mouth of God, thus it must be obeyed, thus, that means reading the bible in the light that it is spoken in parables, to compare scripture to scripture, and that if God repeats Himself, the thing is established. I wrote them down because if you notice it is only a handful of verses in the 1000s of verses of the bible, and I never wanted to forget them, so my interpretations would ALWAYS be correct.

Finally, what did Paul write in his epistle, OH that’s right, he wrote what God spoke. And what did God speak and Paul wrote, Paul wrote about obeying the doctrine of the WORD. Not Paul’s doctrine, Where do you suppose the Apostles, who then because the earthly church, got their doctrine from, those early generations of holy men, used the doctrine contained withing the scripture, the SAME WORD JESUS TAUGHT.

That’s correct Paul wrote what God spoke and God spoke that we are to hold onto the teachings we received both by word of mouth as well as letter. So why don’t you? As for the early church, it was decidedly based on oral teaching. The church looked to see who had the Apostolic succession and who did not. Those who were validly ordained by the Apostles and who in turn ordained others. Paul speaks of these in his letter to Timothy [2Ti 2:2]. Your denomination has no Apostolic Succession. Your ministers as well as your denominations are devoid of the authority Jesus gave to His Church. And Jesus did give authority to his church.

 

[SemperReformada]

You forget that the Bible is not the only word of God that Jesus left with us. It maybe the only one you accept but then so what? You, like it or not are a johnny come lately. Before you and your protestant gumba’s came on the scene in the 16th century there existed over 1500 years of Christianity composed of three legitimate churches. They being The Catholic, The Coptic and The Orthodox. All three have valid sacraments, liturgy and priesthood. All three are Apostolic and all three maintain that there are two sources of divine revelation just as Paul proclaims in 2 Thess 2:15. Your Bible only [sola scriptura] doctrine is unscriptural.

What is Paul teaching in 2Thess2:15 that isn’t recorded in scripture? For that matter, do you believe there is anything in oral Tradition that isn’t found in scripture?

 

[inkaneer]

What is Paul teaching in 2Thess2:15 that isn’t recorded in scripture? For that matter, do you believe there is anything in oral Tradition that isn’t found in scripture?

Sure there is. Show me where scripture tells us to worship on the first day of the week rather than the Sabbath. Show me where scripture records that the Trinity is composed of persons with the same substance. Show me where scripture records that Jesus had two natures and two wills. 2 Thess 2:15 was never abrogated. It is God’s written word and is immutable. Show me the passage that says God’s word is written only in a book. Show me where scripture records what books are scripture. Those are off the top of my head, there is a lot more.

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

AMEN AMEN!!! to INKANEER, GOD smiles on you. May God grant you infinite mercy for defending the Church. What these people speak is heresy! And their souls are obviously in danger of hell fire for this hard hardheadedness, repent! repent! from your Protestant faulty thinking, we have shown you logically how you are wrong. Yet you cling to your own faulty Bible interpretation and a system of a “salvation plan” that was unheard of on this planet until the 1800s made up by a guy named Nelson Darby, get a grip! Can’t you see we wouldn’t fight you if we didn’t care, honestly Inkaneer and I take the time to debunk your myths about Christianity because ultimately we love those who are brethren in Christ and seek to save your souls. If sarcasm or insult is perceived it is out of frustration or deter any young impressionable minds from eating up this false doctrine. HAHA you make me laugh, EnterCanaan, I must say you are an Apologists worst nightmare, but your arguments are in vain, we will always have logical answers to everything, witness the power that is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You are handling the next arguments swell and in favor of God, I shall support you Ink in prayer and if need be further citation and Church teaching, God Bless you!