L
Luke_K
Guest
2 Kings 2: 11
John 3:13
1 Maccabees 2:58
VERSUS
John 3:13
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J
JaredR
Guest
I think Elijah went to paradise and not into the presence of God (heaven as we think of it).
Even if that’s not the case, check out the Douay-Rheims:
“No man hath ascended–but He that descended from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven.”
Elijah was taken into heaven by God’s grace. He didn’t ascend to heaven by his own power. I believe there’s a significant difference of meaning there.
Even if that’s not the case, check out the Douay-Rheims:
“No man hath ascended–but He that descended from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven.”
Elijah was taken into heaven by God’s grace. He didn’t ascend to heaven by his own power. I believe there’s a significant difference of meaning there.
O
Oldtimer_7
Guest
There is no contradiction in what was written. Neither the quotation from 2 Kings nor from 1 Maccabees says that Elijah went of his own volition, The wording is clearer in Maccabees, but the idea is the same. No man can, of his own volition, get into heaven, only be the will of God. The Greek word in John, anabaino agrees with this sense.
L
Luke_K
Guest
So…the verse from John refers to one going up to heaven out of his own power? Is that what the Greek word means?
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
Both Elijah and Enoch were translated into heaven. Meaning they never died a physical death. This could only happen because their sins had been paid for. Their sins were paid for because Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth. Meaning, before the earth was ever formed, Christ, as the Lamb, had already died and paid for the sins of those whom He has chosen.
This is called predestination, or election, or a chosen child of God. This is why we are not saved by our work, because all the work has already been completed by Christ, as the Lamb, and by His blood those chosen people have been sanctified, [sanctified means ‘to set apart’] and they have been written in the Book of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth.
This is why there is no purgatory, and this is why there is either Heaven or Hell. If you have been given a new resurrected soul, as Elijah and Enoch were, because just like us, they were born spiritually dead, born of original sin, and that iniquity means spiritual death. It is by the blood of Christ, that a person becomes sanctified, and their sins are forgiven.
If Christ has given you a new resurrected soul, if He has died and paid for you sins IN FULL. past, present, and future sins, then that means when you die you are to go to heaven in your soul existence, as our physical bodies turn back to dust in the ground. If you die unsaved, then you die completely, physically your body is buried, it is dead, and spiritually you never were alive to begin with because you were born into sin and never had that stain washed by the blood of Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth.
If you understand my explanation, then you would ask, but what about purgatory and everything else I had been taught considering Elijah and Enoch and why Moses was present at the transfiguration and how can this be it contradicts.
No, it contradicts your doctrine, but not the bible doctrine. it is in harmony. Elijah and Enoch were translated into heaven, they were “taken up” by Christ, they did not take the stairway to Heaven, but they walked with God, and God was pleased, and so these two men were translated both body and soul. This is only because Christ, as the Lamb, had already died for there sins; this is the only way to explain this and still be in harmony with the rest of the bible.
Moses was able to be present along with Elijah at the transfiguration because their sins had been paid for, and they had gone to heaven to be with God. Remember, Moses struck the Rock twice. This was direct rebellion against God, as God only commanded Moses to strike the rock once… That is a sin, and the wages of sin is death. It doesn’t matter how much Moses did, the fact of the matter is that the word of God is the law of God. The word of God condemns life unto life and death unto death. The law of God is the reason why there is such a thing as sin. If God had no law, there would be no sin because nothing would be contrary to God. But He has His word, and His word is Law, and to break that law is sin, and the wages of sin is death.
Moses was forbidden from Entering Canaan, and He died on the Mount overlooking the promised land, but he was not able to cross into it. Then he died, physically, but what happened to his soul. Moses sinned right? He struck the rock twice, that is sin, but Christ had paid for his sins already, past sins, present sins, and future sins, Christ, as the Lamb, was slain BEFORE the foundations of the earth.
Thus, Moses, in his soul existence goes to heaven, and Moses is seen in the transfiguration, with a glowing remaint as proof that indeed, Moses went to heaven. Indeed Elijah went to heaven because the bible tells us, the two came down together from heaven to be with Christ, to prove to the apostles present as witnesses to the Word, that indeed this is the Christ.
There is no purgatory, this is a false teaching, purgatory does not fit with my explanation and what i said is scriptural.
purgatory is to purge you of your final attachment to sin, however this is in direct contradiction to bible teaching because if Christ died for you sins, then He died for all of your sins. Every single dirty rotten sin is paid for, there is no need to purge your attachment, that is a fable. It also does not give complete glory to Christ, because purgatory means that Christ could not finish all the work necessary for your salvation, that you need to take some sort of step towards Christ to complete the salvation process.
Well that is work, and even if purgatory means that Christ does the work of cleansing you in purgatory, well then that would thereby make His death at the cross meaningless, because He was unable to finish it all. And if purgatory means that you yourself must contribute to somehow purge your attachment, then that is work, and we are not saved by our works. We cannot contribute to the sacrifice Christ made, we cannot meet Christ half way.
This is because GOD died for your sins, God did all the work. God can do the work of God perfectly. Thus purgatory is a fable. Hell simply means death, it means a spiritually dead person dies physically, and thus they are under the wrath of God forever, which is Hell, and there is never any conscience existence again. Heaven has been open sense DAY ONE!!! BEcause Christ is the Lamb, and He did His work before the foundations of the earth.
This is called predestination, or election, or a chosen child of God. This is why we are not saved by our work, because all the work has already been completed by Christ, as the Lamb, and by His blood those chosen people have been sanctified, [sanctified means ‘to set apart’] and they have been written in the Book of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth.
This is why there is no purgatory, and this is why there is either Heaven or Hell. If you have been given a new resurrected soul, as Elijah and Enoch were, because just like us, they were born spiritually dead, born of original sin, and that iniquity means spiritual death. It is by the blood of Christ, that a person becomes sanctified, and their sins are forgiven.
If Christ has given you a new resurrected soul, if He has died and paid for you sins IN FULL. past, present, and future sins, then that means when you die you are to go to heaven in your soul existence, as our physical bodies turn back to dust in the ground. If you die unsaved, then you die completely, physically your body is buried, it is dead, and spiritually you never were alive to begin with because you were born into sin and never had that stain washed by the blood of Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth.
If you understand my explanation, then you would ask, but what about purgatory and everything else I had been taught considering Elijah and Enoch and why Moses was present at the transfiguration and how can this be it contradicts.
No, it contradicts your doctrine, but not the bible doctrine. it is in harmony. Elijah and Enoch were translated into heaven, they were “taken up” by Christ, they did not take the stairway to Heaven, but they walked with God, and God was pleased, and so these two men were translated both body and soul. This is only because Christ, as the Lamb, had already died for there sins; this is the only way to explain this and still be in harmony with the rest of the bible.
Moses was able to be present along with Elijah at the transfiguration because their sins had been paid for, and they had gone to heaven to be with God. Remember, Moses struck the Rock twice. This was direct rebellion against God, as God only commanded Moses to strike the rock once… That is a sin, and the wages of sin is death. It doesn’t matter how much Moses did, the fact of the matter is that the word of God is the law of God. The word of God condemns life unto life and death unto death. The law of God is the reason why there is such a thing as sin. If God had no law, there would be no sin because nothing would be contrary to God. But He has His word, and His word is Law, and to break that law is sin, and the wages of sin is death.
Moses was forbidden from Entering Canaan, and He died on the Mount overlooking the promised land, but he was not able to cross into it. Then he died, physically, but what happened to his soul. Moses sinned right? He struck the rock twice, that is sin, but Christ had paid for his sins already, past sins, present sins, and future sins, Christ, as the Lamb, was slain BEFORE the foundations of the earth.
Thus, Moses, in his soul existence goes to heaven, and Moses is seen in the transfiguration, with a glowing remaint as proof that indeed, Moses went to heaven. Indeed Elijah went to heaven because the bible tells us, the two came down together from heaven to be with Christ, to prove to the apostles present as witnesses to the Word, that indeed this is the Christ.
There is no purgatory, this is a false teaching, purgatory does not fit with my explanation and what i said is scriptural.
purgatory is to purge you of your final attachment to sin, however this is in direct contradiction to bible teaching because if Christ died for you sins, then He died for all of your sins. Every single dirty rotten sin is paid for, there is no need to purge your attachment, that is a fable. It also does not give complete glory to Christ, because purgatory means that Christ could not finish all the work necessary for your salvation, that you need to take some sort of step towards Christ to complete the salvation process.
Well that is work, and even if purgatory means that Christ does the work of cleansing you in purgatory, well then that would thereby make His death at the cross meaningless, because He was unable to finish it all. And if purgatory means that you yourself must contribute to somehow purge your attachment, then that is work, and we are not saved by our works. We cannot contribute to the sacrifice Christ made, we cannot meet Christ half way.
This is because GOD died for your sins, God did all the work. God can do the work of God perfectly. Thus purgatory is a fable. Hell simply means death, it means a spiritually dead person dies physically, and thus they are under the wrath of God forever, which is Hell, and there is never any conscience existence again. Heaven has been open sense DAY ONE!!! BEcause Christ is the Lamb, and He did His work before the foundations of the earth.
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
Why the cross then? am I saying the cross was unnecessary. No I am saying Christ came to DEMONSTRATE His sacrifice which makes it even more awesome because The Lamb, the word of God, became flesh and demonstrated His infinite love in PERSON. Also Satan was defeated at the cross, and Satan, that old serpent and the Devil, was bound for a 1000 years at the time of the cross.
This 1000 years is spiritual and it means the “complete time” which was completed 50 days later on Pentacost, when the Holy Spirit was sent and Peter preached and about 3000 men were saved. This is the birth of the new church, and the day Satan is released again to rule the world as he did completely before he was bound at the cross.
I hope I helped clear up biblical contradictions. The answer is to compare scripture with scripture in order to find the harmony. Take the bible as a whole and that way you have no contradiction, you only have clarifying truth to confusing text. But truth is the truth. And the bible is truth and also the final authority.
This 1000 years is spiritual and it means the “complete time” which was completed 50 days later on Pentacost, when the Holy Spirit was sent and Peter preached and about 3000 men were saved. This is the birth of the new church, and the day Satan is released again to rule the world as he did completely before he was bound at the cross.
I hope I helped clear up biblical contradictions. The answer is to compare scripture with scripture in order to find the harmony. Take the bible as a whole and that way you have no contradiction, you only have clarifying truth to confusing text. But truth is the truth. And the bible is truth and also the final authority.
V
VerumAdInfernos
Guest
False, you appear to be very confused to claim to be a Christian. Purgatory is 100% Biblical. (See Cont…)Both Elijah and Enoch were translated into heaven. Meaning they never died a physical death. This could only happen because their sins had been paid for. Their sins were paid for because Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth. Meaning, before the earth was ever formed, Christ, as the Lamb, had already died and paid for the sins of those whom He has chosen.
This is called predestination, or election, or a chosen child of God. This is why we are not saved by our work, because all the work has already been completed by Christ, as the Lamb, and by His blood those chosen people have been sanctified, [sanctified means ‘to set apart’] and they have been written in the Book of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth.
This is why there is no purgatory, and this is why there is either Heaven or Hell. If you have been given a new resurrected soul, as Elijah and Enoch were, because just like us, they were born spiritually dead, born of original sin, and that iniquity means spiritual death. It is by the blood of Christ, that a person becomes sanctified, and their sins are forgiven.
If Christ has given you a new resurrected soul, if He has died and paid for you sins IN FULL. past, present, and future sins, then that means when you die you are to go to heaven in your soul existence, as our physical bodies turn back to dust in the ground. If you die unsaved, then you die completely, physically your body is buried, it is dead, and spiritually you never were alive to begin with because you were born into sin and never had that stain washed by the blood of Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth.
If you understand my explanation, then you would ask, but what about purgatory and everything else I had been taught considering Elijah and Enoch and why Moses was present at the transfiguration and how can this be it contradicts.
No, it contradicts your doctrine, but not the bible doctrine. it is in harmony. Elijah and Enoch were translated into heaven, they were “taken up” by Christ, they did not take the stairway to Heaven, but they walked with God, and God was pleased, and so these two men were translated both body and soul. This is only because Christ, as the Lamb, had already died for there sins; this is the only way to explain this and still be in harmony with the rest of the bible.
Moses was able to be present along with Elijah at the transfiguration because their sins had been paid for, and they had gone to heaven to be with God. Remember, Moses struck the Rock twice. This was direct rebellion against God, as God only commanded Moses to strike the rock once… That is a sin, and the wages of sin is death. It doesn’t matter how much Moses did, the fact of the matter is that the word of God is the law of God. The word of God condemns life unto life and death unto death. The law of God is the reason why there is such a thing as sin. If God had no law, there would be no sin because nothing would be contrary to God. But He has His word, and His word is Law, and to break that law is sin, and the wages of sin is death.
Moses was forbidden from Entering Canaan, and He died on the Mount overlooking the promised land, but he was not able to cross into it. Then he died, physically, but what happened to his soul. Moses sinned right? He struck the rock twice, that is sin, but Christ had paid for his sins already, past sins, present sins, and future sins, Christ, as the Lamb, was slain BEFORE the foundations of the earth.
Thus, Moses, in his soul existence goes to heaven, and Moses is seen in the transfiguration, with a glowing remaint as proof that indeed, Moses went to heaven. Indeed Elijah went to heaven because the bible tells us, the two came down together from heaven to be with Christ, to prove to the apostles present as witnesses to the Word, that indeed this is the Christ.
There is no purgatory, this is a false teaching, purgatory does not fit with my explanation and what i said is scriptural.
purgatory is to purge you of your final attachment to sin, however this is in direct contradiction to bible teaching because if Christ died for you sins, then He died for all of your sins. Every single dirty rotten sin is paid for, there is no need to purge your attachment, that is a fable. It also does not give complete glory to Christ, because purgatory means that Christ could not finish all the work necessary for your salvation, that you need to take some sort of step towards Christ to complete the salvation process.
Well that is work, and even if purgatory means that Christ does the work of cleansing you in purgatory, well then that would thereby make His death at the cross meaningless, because He was unable to finish it all. And if purgatory means that you yourself must contribute to somehow purge your attachment, then that is work, and we are not saved by our works. We cannot contribute to the sacrifice Christ made, we cannot meet Christ half way.
This is because GOD died for your sins, God did all the work. God can do the work of God perfectly. Thus purgatory is a fable. Hell simply means death, it means a spiritually dead person dies physically, and thus they are under the wrath of God forever, which is Hell, and there is never any conscience existence again. Heaven has been open sense DAY ONE!!! BEcause Christ is the Lamb, and He did His work before the foundations of the earth.
V
VerumAdInfernos
Guest
(Cont…)
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
(See Cont…)
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
(See Cont…)
V
VerumAdInfernos
Guest
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Furthermore predestination is false doctrine, the rapture as you claim to believe it is a brazen misunderstanding and bad Bible scholarship. It was a common allusion in Biblical times for people to meet their ruler and do a sweep with them before entering a certain area. This is merely what the Bible is reffering to, not being transported to be judged, the people meet Christ because he is King and then return with him to Earth. HUGE misinterpretation of Scripture, but that is because most Protestant theologians have had improper education. This passage does not contradict Catholic doctrine at all as was said by the poster who gave a Catholic response. Obviously Luke I am sure you know that this post is Protestant hog wash.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Furthermore predestination is false doctrine, the rapture as you claim to believe it is a brazen misunderstanding and bad Bible scholarship. It was a common allusion in Biblical times for people to meet their ruler and do a sweep with them before entering a certain area. This is merely what the Bible is reffering to, not being transported to be judged, the people meet Christ because he is King and then return with him to Earth. HUGE misinterpretation of Scripture, but that is because most Protestant theologians have had improper education. This passage does not contradict Catholic doctrine at all as was said by the poster who gave a Catholic response. Obviously Luke I am sure you know that this post is Protestant hog wash.
V
VerumAdInfernos
Guest
False the Church is the final authority over the Scriptures. Please go read the thread, “Another Nail In The Coffin For Sola Scriptura…” Also you have cleared up no contradiction because no contradiction exists you demean Scripture by claiming so. Again Luke I hope you realize to ignore these Protesant misguided answers.Why the cross then? am I saying the cross was unnecessary. No I am saying Christ came to DEMONSTRATE His sacrifice which makes it even more awesome because The Lamb, the word of God, became flesh and demonstrated His infinite love in PERSON. Also Satan was defeated at the cross, and Satan, that old serpent and the Devil, was bound for a 1000 years at the time of the cross.
This 1000 years is spiritual and it means the “complete time” which was completed 50 days later on Pentacost, when the Holy Spirit was sent and Peter preached and about 3000 men were saved. This is the birth of the new church, and the day Satan is released again to rule the world as he did completely before he was bound at the cross.
I hope I helped clear up biblical contradictions. The answer is to compare scripture with scripture in order to find the harmony. Take the bible as a whole and that way you have no contradiction, you only have clarifying truth to confusing text. But truth is the truth. And the bible is truth and also the final authority.
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
No one has gone up to heaven without the power of God.
Simple as that I guess.
It’s so simple it seems like a good argument for the assumption of Mary.
Simple as that I guess.
It’s so simple it seems like a good argument for the assumption of Mary.
V
VerumAdInfernos
Guest
Yet again a non Catholic response however. The question was already answered.No one has gone up to heaven without the power of God.
Simple as that I guess.
It’s so simple it seems like a good argument for the assumption of Mary.
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
Matthew 12:29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mark 3:27
No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days[10 is spiritual for completeness]: be thou faithful unto [physical]death, and I will give thee a crown of [spiritual]life.
Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
THE STRONG MAN is the DEVIL. The strong mans house is Prison. Prison is Hell.
When we are born, we are born spiritually dead, we are born subject to the ruler of this world, that would be the Strong man, who is Satan. Being spiritually dead, we are locked in prison already at the time of conception. We are bound in the Strong mans house, that is prison, that which is prison is to be bound by sin, to be bound by sin is to be under the wrath of God, to be under the wrath of God is to be in hell.
In this case, hell is described as the absence of God, which is to be under the wrath of God, in the sense of complete and total death, hell is another name for death. Which can be translated as Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in Greek, also as “grave” “pit” and “prison” all words for death. All of which are a result of sin. This is harmony.
When Christ was crucified, Satan was bound for a 1000 years, which is the “complete time” meaning until God’s plan is complete. In this case, Satan was bound at the cross and thus, the strong man was bound, and the strong mans house plundered. Meaning, the prison that is sin, which is ruled by satan, was plundered and those locked in sin, in that prison which is spiritual death, Christ had sent His Holy Spirit at the end of the 1000 years, which in reality was only 50 days later on the Day of Pentecost. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit was sent, BECAUSE satan was bound, and Peter preached and about 3000 men were saved. This is only because the strong man, who is satan, was bound, and this allowed God to send His holy spirit and plunder those who are locked in prison. Which is the entire world as we are all born into sin.
Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and look at your first few verses:
Hebrews 12:23 (King James Version)
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
The general assemly and church of the firstborn would be all those true believers who are made clean by the blood of Christ. This doesn’t mean anybody who joins a church is a true believer. This means everybody who is apart of the true spiritual church. This is proved by the next line, “which are written in heaven” … Right. The Lamb, who is Christ, died before the foundation of the earth, and He died for His chosen people, and His chosen are written in the book in heaven. This is called predestination. Spirits of just men made perfect simply means that … a man, who was born spiritually dead, as we all are, was made clean and justified by the blood of Christ. When that man received his new resurrected soul, then that man in that INSTANT was made perfect in his soul existence as all of that mans sin had been paid for.
Nothing to do about purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19 (King James Version)
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
He[Christ] preached His [Word]… and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, to those spirits in prison. That is every single person on the entire planet is born spiritually dead, being thus, it is a parable about the living, our dead sinful soul is in prison, that is in the hands of Satan, who is the Strong man. The strong mans house is the prison, or hell. When Christ was crucified, Satan was bound, and when He sent His Holy Spirit on Pentecost, as Peter preached[the word of God] the Holy Spirit was able to save those men who were just moments before, spiritually dead, and locked in prison. Then in the matter of an instant, like the rushing of wind, about 3000 men were saved. These men were freed from prison.
Its called a parable, and this is its meaning, nothing to do about beatific visions or purgatory. I just explained it in harmony with the bible, Its Bible doctrine.
1 Peter 4:6 (King James Version)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Right. The gospel, that is the word of God, was preached to those who are dead, meaning spiritually dead, and that is the whole entire world as we are all born into sin, and as the gospel was preached, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and the Holy spirit descends and testifies with your spirit, and you are given a new resurrected spirit and reborn, meaning “ALIVE” and freed from the prison of Sin, and the curse of God’s law which judges all men, but we are thereby freed from the judgment of the law by the grace of God and the blood of Christ.
Nothing to do with purgatory.
So my friend, I just gave sound biblical teaching, what do you say, are you willing to let the bible be used for, CORRECTION and instruction in knowledge.
Or do you still know more. Good show presuming to teach that which you don’t know and meanwhile blasting me by calling me un-christian. i’ll chalk it up to zeal on your part.
Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mark 3:27
No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days[10 is spiritual for completeness]: be thou faithful unto [physical]death, and I will give thee a crown of [spiritual]life.
Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
THE STRONG MAN is the DEVIL. The strong mans house is Prison. Prison is Hell.
When we are born, we are born spiritually dead, we are born subject to the ruler of this world, that would be the Strong man, who is Satan. Being spiritually dead, we are locked in prison already at the time of conception. We are bound in the Strong mans house, that is prison, that which is prison is to be bound by sin, to be bound by sin is to be under the wrath of God, to be under the wrath of God is to be in hell.
In this case, hell is described as the absence of God, which is to be under the wrath of God, in the sense of complete and total death, hell is another name for death. Which can be translated as Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in Greek, also as “grave” “pit” and “prison” all words for death. All of which are a result of sin. This is harmony.
When Christ was crucified, Satan was bound for a 1000 years, which is the “complete time” meaning until God’s plan is complete. In this case, Satan was bound at the cross and thus, the strong man was bound, and the strong mans house plundered. Meaning, the prison that is sin, which is ruled by satan, was plundered and those locked in sin, in that prison which is spiritual death, Christ had sent His Holy Spirit at the end of the 1000 years, which in reality was only 50 days later on the Day of Pentecost. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit was sent, BECAUSE satan was bound, and Peter preached and about 3000 men were saved. This is only because the strong man, who is satan, was bound, and this allowed God to send His holy spirit and plunder those who are locked in prison. Which is the entire world as we are all born into sin.
Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and look at your first few verses:
Hebrews 12:23 (King James Version)
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
The general assemly and church of the firstborn would be all those true believers who are made clean by the blood of Christ. This doesn’t mean anybody who joins a church is a true believer. This means everybody who is apart of the true spiritual church. This is proved by the next line, “which are written in heaven” … Right. The Lamb, who is Christ, died before the foundation of the earth, and He died for His chosen people, and His chosen are written in the book in heaven. This is called predestination. Spirits of just men made perfect simply means that … a man, who was born spiritually dead, as we all are, was made clean and justified by the blood of Christ. When that man received his new resurrected soul, then that man in that INSTANT was made perfect in his soul existence as all of that mans sin had been paid for.
Nothing to do about purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19 (King James Version)
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
He[Christ] preached His [Word]… and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, to those spirits in prison. That is every single person on the entire planet is born spiritually dead, being thus, it is a parable about the living, our dead sinful soul is in prison, that is in the hands of Satan, who is the Strong man. The strong mans house is the prison, or hell. When Christ was crucified, Satan was bound, and when He sent His Holy Spirit on Pentecost, as Peter preached[the word of God] the Holy Spirit was able to save those men who were just moments before, spiritually dead, and locked in prison. Then in the matter of an instant, like the rushing of wind, about 3000 men were saved. These men were freed from prison.
Its called a parable, and this is its meaning, nothing to do about beatific visions or purgatory. I just explained it in harmony with the bible, Its Bible doctrine.
1 Peter 4:6 (King James Version)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Right. The gospel, that is the word of God, was preached to those who are dead, meaning spiritually dead, and that is the whole entire world as we are all born into sin, and as the gospel was preached, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and the Holy spirit descends and testifies with your spirit, and you are given a new resurrected spirit and reborn, meaning “ALIVE” and freed from the prison of Sin, and the curse of God’s law which judges all men, but we are thereby freed from the judgment of the law by the grace of God and the blood of Christ.
Nothing to do with purgatory.
So my friend, I just gave sound biblical teaching, what do you say, are you willing to let the bible be used for, CORRECTION and instruction in knowledge.
Or do you still know more. Good show presuming to teach that which you don’t know and meanwhile blasting me by calling me un-christian. i’ll chalk it up to zeal on your part.
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
Prov 8:22 “The Lord possessed Me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.”
Prov 8:23 “I have been **established **from everlasting, from the beginning, **before **there was ever an earth.”
The Lamb, who is Christ, was established from everlasting , before there was ever an earth.
John 17:24 “Father, I desire **that they also whom You gave Me **may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”
Those whom You gave Me would be all those people who were chosen before the foundation of the earth, they were chosen and sanctified, meaning they were set apart, for salvation because there sins were covered by the blood of the Lamb, who is Christ. This is called predestination.
Rom 9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
According to election. Election is another word for predestination. Election implies that some were chosen. These people that were chosen, are commonly referred to as a remnant in the bible.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 **having predestined us to adoption **as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will
Speaks for itself.
1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as the Lamb without blemish and without spot.
1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but **was manifest **[IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST] in these last times for you.
1Peter 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Right. Christ, who is the Lamb without blemish, was forordained before the foundation of the world, and was killed, and was resurrected from the dead and given glory. God died before the foundation of the world. God gave His life for ransom. Then He came to demonstrate this by dying, not spiritually mind you, because He already died spiritually and physically before the foundation of the world, but he came to DEMONSTRATE how He paid for our sins and to bind Satan at the Cross so the Holy Spirit could be sent. All apart of Gods plan.
Predestination is biblical. Only a few, that is those who were chosen, will become saved. This is biblical teaching and Gods salvation plan.
You can believe your own plan and create your own salvation plan as so many do. But remember we are not saved by our works, and so anything you do will be as nothing, thus instead of studying the bible and believing WHAT THE WORD SAYS, you decide to embrace comfort of your own created doctrine and your own design for salvation.
The rapture is not false, its called the day of Judgment, the Day of the Lord, are you kidding me, how can you deny that.
Ill tell you what really is the problem, is you don’t understand the salvation plan, and so you go by what you hear which is unbiblical and you take that to the bank.
I’ll explain the salvation plan, which is in harmony with the bible.
There will be a great tribulation, the great tribulation is a time of separation. As in the parable of the wheat and the tares. The wheat are the true believers the tares are those who look like they are saved, who think they are saved, yet they are not. On the final day of tribulation, when Gods complete salvation plan is finished, The Lord will return, otherwise known as the second coming, the day of the lord, the day of judgment. First, all those who are the true believers will be “taken up” “caught up” otherwise known as ruptured. These people will be taken up right before the very eyes of the unbelievers. and this will be a testimony against them as they witness this happening and then begins the weeping and gnashing of teeth as they realize they have been left behind. Then after the second coming, begins the day of judgment. the self same day. The same day the Great tribulation ends, and the separation has been complete, then the Lord returns to gather His elect, and the same instant is the day of Judgment. On the day of judgment there will be a great earthquake that will throw open all the graves of the world. All dead, everywhere, in the sea, in the ground, dust, ashes, all of it, will be thrown out of there graves and cast out upon the ground, this is the final great shame, this is there final judgment. All those who are unsaved will be cast out, all those bodies who are saved will be resurrected into new glorified bodies to complete the salvation process, to finally become perfect in both spirit and body, and this will be witnessed by all those left behind. this will be a testimony against them and there rebellion against God. And then God will withdrawl His spirit from the face of the earth, and there will be no more God for those left behind. The hand of God which restrains the full extent of what sin could possibly be, will be taken away, and nobody will feel the presence of God during the horror that is the day of Judgment. And all of these people will suffer the wrath of God in horror and pain for 5 months, then the complete plan will be finished and God will destroy everything and create anew heaven and earth.
Rev 9:4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. And their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
Rev 9:6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
Prov 8:23 “I have been **established **from everlasting, from the beginning, **before **there was ever an earth.”
The Lamb, who is Christ, was established from everlasting , before there was ever an earth.
John 17:24 “Father, I desire **that they also whom You gave Me **may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”
Those whom You gave Me would be all those people who were chosen before the foundation of the earth, they were chosen and sanctified, meaning they were set apart, for salvation because there sins were covered by the blood of the Lamb, who is Christ. This is called predestination.
Rom 9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
According to election. Election is another word for predestination. Election implies that some were chosen. These people that were chosen, are commonly referred to as a remnant in the bible.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 **having predestined us to adoption **as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will
Speaks for itself.
1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as the Lamb without blemish and without spot.
1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but **was manifest **[IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST] in these last times for you.
1Peter 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Right. Christ, who is the Lamb without blemish, was forordained before the foundation of the world, and was killed, and was resurrected from the dead and given glory. God died before the foundation of the world. God gave His life for ransom. Then He came to demonstrate this by dying, not spiritually mind you, because He already died spiritually and physically before the foundation of the world, but he came to DEMONSTRATE how He paid for our sins and to bind Satan at the Cross so the Holy Spirit could be sent. All apart of Gods plan.
Predestination is biblical. Only a few, that is those who were chosen, will become saved. This is biblical teaching and Gods salvation plan.
You can believe your own plan and create your own salvation plan as so many do. But remember we are not saved by our works, and so anything you do will be as nothing, thus instead of studying the bible and believing WHAT THE WORD SAYS, you decide to embrace comfort of your own created doctrine and your own design for salvation.
The rapture is not false, its called the day of Judgment, the Day of the Lord, are you kidding me, how can you deny that.
Ill tell you what really is the problem, is you don’t understand the salvation plan, and so you go by what you hear which is unbiblical and you take that to the bank.
I’ll explain the salvation plan, which is in harmony with the bible.
There will be a great tribulation, the great tribulation is a time of separation. As in the parable of the wheat and the tares. The wheat are the true believers the tares are those who look like they are saved, who think they are saved, yet they are not. On the final day of tribulation, when Gods complete salvation plan is finished, The Lord will return, otherwise known as the second coming, the day of the lord, the day of judgment. First, all those who are the true believers will be “taken up” “caught up” otherwise known as ruptured. These people will be taken up right before the very eyes of the unbelievers. and this will be a testimony against them as they witness this happening and then begins the weeping and gnashing of teeth as they realize they have been left behind. Then after the second coming, begins the day of judgment. the self same day. The same day the Great tribulation ends, and the separation has been complete, then the Lord returns to gather His elect, and the same instant is the day of Judgment. On the day of judgment there will be a great earthquake that will throw open all the graves of the world. All dead, everywhere, in the sea, in the ground, dust, ashes, all of it, will be thrown out of there graves and cast out upon the ground, this is the final great shame, this is there final judgment. All those who are unsaved will be cast out, all those bodies who are saved will be resurrected into new glorified bodies to complete the salvation process, to finally become perfect in both spirit and body, and this will be witnessed by all those left behind. this will be a testimony against them and there rebellion against God. And then God will withdrawl His spirit from the face of the earth, and there will be no more God for those left behind. The hand of God which restrains the full extent of what sin could possibly be, will be taken away, and nobody will feel the presence of God during the horror that is the day of Judgment. And all of these people will suffer the wrath of God in horror and pain for 5 months, then the complete plan will be finished and God will destroy everything and create anew heaven and earth.
Rev 9:4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. And their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
Rev 9:6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
N
NHInsider
Guest
Might as well, since if your false doctrine were true, it wouldn’t matter what the rest of us believe or do - if we’re not predestined for salvation we’re damned anyway. If we are predestined then we’ll be saved. Why bother trying to convince us?Predestination is biblical. Only a few, that is those who were chosen, will become saved. This is biblical teaching and Gods salvation plan.
You can believe your own plan and create your own salvation plan as so many do. But remember we are not saved by our works, and so anything you do will be as nothing, thus instead of studying the bible and believing WHAT THE WORD SAYS, you decide to embrace comfort of your own created doctrine and your own design for salvation.
Thanks be to God for the free gift of grace and the opportunity to embrace it.
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
I just showed you IN THE BIBLE where it teaches pre-destination. Yet you still call it false doctine.Might as well, since if your false doctrine were true, it wouldn’t matter what the rest of us believe or do - if we’re not predestined for salvation we’re damned anyway. If we are predestined then we’ll be saved. Why bother trying to convince us?
Thanks be to God for the free gift of grace and the opportunity to embrace it.
Secondly. the bible does not teach double predestination, and this is what you are presenting as your argument. God wills nobody to be damned,
WE ARE ALREADY BORN SPIRITUALLY DEAD. if we don’t convert and be saved, then we are DESTINED TO BE IN HELL ALREADY.
but I can see you are more interested in how smart you are then the truth of the bible. which you know better than me obviously. Good zeal, good luck with that.
P
praise_Jesus_1
Guest
Why would it matter if we convert or not? Wouldn’t predestination trump all that?
To Luke: some speculate that Elijah and Enoch were kept in some other place and allowed to enter heaven after Jesus suffered on the cross and the gates of heaven were open. After all this is mostly an issue of timing and God exists out of time so anything is possible.
To Luke: some speculate that Elijah and Enoch were kept in some other place and allowed to enter heaven after Jesus suffered on the cross and the gates of heaven were open. After all this is mostly an issue of timing and God exists out of time so anything is possible.
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
comparing scripture to scripture. to connect these two statements you made, just to be contrary to me, a christian, i will guide you to the meaning.Why would it matter if we convert or not? Wouldn’t predestination trump all that?
To Luke: some speculate that Elijah and Enoch were kept in some other place and allowed to enter heaven after Jesus suffered on the cross and the gates of heaven were open. After all this is mostly an issue of timing and God exists out of time so anything is possible.
Matthew 13:15
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Acts 28:27
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
:yawn: only the chosen man, will have eyes to see and ears to hear and will understand and will be converted from death to life. Only the elect of God will have their sins forgiven and be converted from a dead spirit to a new resurrected spirit. Just saying you believe in God does not get you saved, that is work. And that is contrary to biblical teaching of election. This is what the bible teachus us, however I can see the comfort in your ideal of salvation, its a much safer bet isn’t it? You should trust in the word of God instead, it is more sound.
it all fits if you do the work and study, but your trying to explain doctrine like you know what your talking about?
D
Danno2281
Guest
I had to delete much of your post to respond because your post was so long.Prov 8:22 “The Lord possessed Me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.”
Prov 8:23 “I have been **established **from everlasting, from the beginning, **before **there was ever an earth.”
The Lamb, who is Christ, was established from everlasting , before there was ever an earth.
Those whom You gave Me would be all those people who were chosen before the foundation of the earth, they were chosen and sanctified, meaning they were set apart, for salvation because there sins were covered by the blood of the Lamb, who is Christ. This is called predestination.
Rom 9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
According to election. Election is another word for predestination. Election implies that some were chosen. These people that were chosen, are commonly referred to as a remnant in the bible.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 **having predestined us to adoption **as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will
Speaks for itself.
1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as the Lamb without blemish and without spot.
1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but **was manifest **[IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST] in these last times for you.
1Peter 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Right. Christ, who is the Lamb without blemish, was forordained before the foundation of the world, and was killed, and was resurrected from the dead and given glory. God died before the foundation of the world. God gave His life for ransom. Then He came to demonstrate this by dying, not spiritually mind you, because He already died spiritually and physically before the foundation of the world, but he came to DEMONSTRATE how He paid for our sins and to bind Satan at the Cross so the Holy Spirit could be sent. All apart of Gods plan.
Predestination is biblical. Only a few, that is those who were chosen, will become saved. This is biblical teaching and Gods salvation plan.
You can believe your own plan and create your own salvation plan as so many do. But remember we are not saved by our works, and so anything you do will be as nothing, thus instead of studying the bible and believing WHAT THE WORD SAYS, you decide to embrace comfort of your own created doctrine and your own design for salvation.
.
Sadly you don’t understrand the difference between predestination and predestinarianism. No one is pre-destined to hell.
As for the “rapture”, the only rapture occurs after the resurrection of the dead (1Thess. 4:17). Any other so called “rapture” would be contrary to Christ’s prayer, “I do not pray that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.” (Jn. 17:15) Where would the leaven be if all were “raptured”?
Jesus is, of course, eternal, but the Christ event happend in time, as Paul clearly teaches: “Born in the fullness of time of a woman…”(Gal. 4:4). Until the Christ event was completed, the restoration of man to a right relationship with God was not fully possible. Adam’s sin prevented it until it was atoned for by Christ’s sacrifice.
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
There is no such thing as predestinarianism. There is such a thing as predestination though, as you recall from reading in the verses I set forth. If you are referring to double predestinatin, well then this is the MOST CLASSIC COMEBACK EVER!!! and has nothing to do with anything as it never has been a biblical teaching. though its a good way to disregard actual biblical teaching.I had to delete much of your post to respond because your post was so long.
Sadly you don’t understrand the difference between predestination and predestinarianism. No one is pre-destined to hell.
As for the “rapture”, the only rapture occurs after the resurrection of the dead (1Thess. 4:17). Any other so called “rapture” would be contrary to Christ’s prayer, “I do not pray that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.” (Jn. 17:15) Where would the leaven be if all were “raptured”?
Jesus is, of course, eternal, but the Christ event happend in time, as Paul clearly teaches: “Born in the fullness of time of a woman…”(Gal. 4:4). Until the Christ event was completed, the restoration of man to a right relationship with God was not fully possible. Adam’s sin prevented it until it was atoned for by Christ’s sacrifice.
IIIi never said double predestintion, you did. and that is false isn’t it. Why would God will people to hell. So this is a void comeback and because this is not even what I said.
I taught the meaning of election, and you comeback with something false and a fable as your retort. Isn’t that always the way. And so if you wish to understand predestination and election in terms of double predestination, well then you don’t fully understand do you.
However your idea of salvation is much safer and more reassuring than biblical teaching, as is quite obvious. I agree that there is much comfort in what you believe. Though unfortunately it is not biblical, but the rational of man.
God bless
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