Bible corrupt

[Layman]

The Bible is only a map. We are the people of The Way.

Let Protestants, Jews and Muslims make a fetish of their books, and fret over single words and phrases. We have Work to do.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I believe the “non-believers” that are being discussed in the last number of posts are the ones who have a chance to corrupt us. Those who do not believe and are seriously asking questions about why we believe as we do are not the ones we should stay away from. those are the ones who are seeking the Truth, whether or not they are aware of it.

I think that the command God is giving us is that we stay away from spending “recreational” (might be close to what I am referring to) time with them. As in, don’t go bars or parties or just to hang out with them for the sake of being with them. If we associate in order to discuss theology, then that is alright…as long as it is not in an improper place for us to be.

For example, last Friday morning I went to talk with a couple of ladies who are not Catholic or very strong in their beliefs of morality. It was enjoyable, except for the lewd conversations that I became a part of. Now I need to go to confession. I did not belong involved in those conversations. I was associating for the sake of associating. I was not associating and standing up for what I believe. There were many openings in the conversations for me to promote Catholic Christianity and morality. However, I was falsely enjoying myself. Afterwards I felt only disgust for myself and for my sin of not getting up and walking away.
However, I have spoken with one of the ladies before about Christ. That was not a sinful conversation.

Do you understand what I am trying to say? Does it make sense to you?

 

[Mea_Culpa]

Jesus often ate with sinners, tax collectors, etc. He was criticized for it by the Pharisees. He also said in Matthew 9:13 “For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” If we’re called to make disciples of all nations, how do we do that if we only talk to people who already believe?

 

[AlanF]

I believe the “non-believers” that are being discussed in the last number of posts are the ones who have a chance to corrupt us. Those who do not believe and are seriously asking questions about why we believe as we do are not the ones we should stay away from. those are the ones who are seeking the Truth, whether or not they are aware of it.

I think that the command God is giving us is that we stay away from spending “recreational” (might be close to what I am referring to) time with them. As in, don’t go bars or parties or just to hang out with them for the sake of being with them. If we associate in order to discuss theology, then that is alright…as long as it is not in an improper place for us to be.

For example, last Friday morning I went to talk with a couple of ladies who are not Catholic or very strong in their beliefs of morality. It was enjoyable, except for the lewd conversations that I became a part of. Now I need to go to confession. I did not belong involved in those conversations. I was associating for the sake of associating. I was not associating and standing up for what I believe. There were many openings in the conversations for me to promote Catholic Christianity and morality. However, I was falsely enjoying myself. Afterwards I felt only disgust for myself and for my sin of not getting up and walking away.
However, I have spoken with one of the ladies before about Christ. That was not a sinful conversation.

Do you understand what I am trying to say? Does it make sense to you?

I understand what you mean, but it still seems better to me to try to persuade those who would corrupt one that what they are doing is wrong is one can keep ones faith and morality in the process rather than leave them and never see them again, when there could be a chance for conversion.

Wasn’t it Saul who persecuted the Church in the first century but was converted and became St. Paul the Apostle who wrote the epistles. There’s always a chance for conversion and it seems to me that that’s what Jesus want’s us to do.

Jesus often ate with sinners, tax collectors, etc. He was criticized for it by the Pharisees. He also said in Matthew 9:13 “For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” If we’re called to make disciples of all nations, how do we do that if we only talk to people who already believe?

Exactly, it’s our mission as Christians to spread the Gospel of the Lord.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I understand what you mean, but it still seems better to me to try to persuade those who would corrupt one that what they are doing is wrong is one can keep ones faith and morality in the process rather than leave them and never see them again, when there could be a chance for conversion.

Wasn’t it Saul who persecuted the Church in the first century but was converted and became St. Paul the Apostle who wrote the epistles. There’s always a chance for conversion and it seems to me that that’s what Jesus want’s us to do.

***A question if you will. Did St. Peter and others hang out with Saul and try to convert him? Did they try to convert him before he became Paul?
No. They did not. Why? Because he would have had them killed if he hadn’t done the job himself.
Jesus and the Apostles tell us to go out in pairs if not more. To tell someone to go out alone into spiritually dangerous waters to try to convert people who are spiritually devious would be wrong.

It is easy to see why. Even on CAF, if one person tries to argue with athiests or people (meaning more than one) who are attacking our Faith, it is very difficult not to be overwhelmed if the Christian is standing on their own. The words of Christ “Where 2 or more are gathered in My Name, there I am.” ring true. If there are more than just one of us fighting against heresy and attacks on our Faith, we feel Christ with us. See, the fight isn’t really ours. It is God’s, and we become His useful tools.

So, if a person feels that he should not enter into a debate with someone because he doesn’t know enough, or he feels vulnerable because he is alone in the fight, it is exceptable to make a statement and then walk away.
There is a thread about a woman who’s husband is very close to a mother figure who is practicing witchcraft constantly. There are people on that thread who seem to be telling her that she needs to go to the woman’s house and try to convert her. That it is her responsibility as a Christian to try to convert this woman. But the OP feels the evilness when around this woman, especially in her house, and doesn’t want to be around that. I think that the evil she feels is real, and she is not in any way obligated to be around this woman. An excorcist would have that responsibility…as he will be ordained and also trained in these kinds of dealings. She is not. Nor is she called at this time to do anything other than pray. satan is strong…we mustn’t forget that…even in the face of Jesus being the strongest and victorious.
okay, rambled long enough.***

Exactly, it’s our mission as Christians to spread the Gospel of the Lord.

It is our mission. Every conversation we have should be pleasing to Christ, and hopefully have something to do with Christ. When we spend a lot of time talking about Him and to Him, it becomes second nature to talk with others about Him, and that is spreading the Gospel of the Lord. And, as we grow in our life with Him, we are better prepared to go out farther into the world, into the darker places, to convert those who are oppressed by worse evil.
We are all called to conversion, and to bring Jesus to the world. We are all called to be missionaries to some extent. At the very least, they should know we are Christians by our love.

Ghandi said that if Christians lived as Christ taught us, every person on the face of the earth would be Christian.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Jesus often ate with sinners, tax collectors, etc. He was criticized for it by the Pharisees. He also said in Matthew 9:13 “For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” If we’re called to make disciples of all nations, how do we do that if we only talk to people who already believe?

That is not what I am talking about. When I was conversing with these two ladies, I was allowing myself to be drawn into sinful conversations about lewd and vulgar things. Christ never did so when He conversed or ate with sinners. He never laughed at the jokes that were lewd. As a matter of fact, He ate with them to let them know that they are important to Him, and that He loves them… and they changed. Remember Zacheeus? He wanted to see Jesus so much that He climbed the sikamore tree just to get a glimpse. Jesus saw into his heart, saw that he wanted to change, and went to his house for supper. I wouldn’t imagine that Jesus was greeted with vulgarity or lewdness or scorn.

My sin was not getting up and leaving immediatly if I was not going to try to talk with them about the saving love of Jesus, and try to teach them about the way He wants us all to live.
Sorry I didn’t make that clear before.

 

[RickAstley]

I remember this being covered before, hold on, I’ll grab a link for you:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4055654#post4055654

I Hope this helps out

 

[Newbie2]

A muslim on Youtube sent me these three Personal Messages arguing that the Bible is corrupt and I don’t really know how to reply to him without saying “well I don’t take the Bible literally anyway” or something like that.

Could someone please help me make a good reply that shows that the Bible is infact not corrupt.

Thanks in advance.
Alan

Maybe not.

If you want to bother responding, I’d say:

1. Yes, there are apparent historical contradictions.
2. Scripture, as found in the bible, is not in it’s entirety meant to
   be taken literally; some poetry, some allegory, some history,
   etc.
3. Scripture contains the information we need for salvation.
   Apparent historical discrepencies such as whether Solomon
   built two or over thee thousand baths are irrelevant to our
   salvation.

 

[AlanF]

A question if you will. Did St. Peter and others hang out with Saul and try to convert him? Did they try to convert him before he became Paul?
No. They did not. Why? Because he would have had them killed if he hadn’t done the job himself.
Jesus and the Apostles tell us to go out in pairs if not more. To tell someone to go out alone into spiritually dangerous waters to try to convert people who are spiritually devious would be wrong.

It is easy to see why. Even on CAF, if one person tries to argue with athiests or people (meaning more than one) who are attacking our Faith, it is very difficult not to be overwhelmed if the Christian is standing on their own. The words of Christ “Where 2 or more are gathered in My Name, there I am.” ring true. If there are more than just one of us fighting against heresy and attacks on our Faith, we feel Christ with us. See, the fight isn’t really ours. It is God’s, and we become His useful tools.

So, if a person feels that he should not enter into a debate with someone because he doesn’t know enough, or he feels vulnerable because he is alone in the fight, it is exceptable to make a statement and then walk away.
There is a thread about a woman who’s husband is very close to a mother figure who is practicing witchcraft constantly. There are people on that thread who seem to be telling her that she needs to go to the woman’s house and try to convert her. That it is her responsibility as a Christian to try to convert this woman. But the OP feels the evilness when around this woman, especially in her house, and doesn’t want to be around that. I think that the evil she feels is real, and she is not in any way obligated to be around this woman. An excorcist would have that responsibility…as he will be ordained and also trained in these kinds of dealings. She is not. Nor is she called at this time to do anything other than pray. satan is strong…we mustn’t forget that…even in the face of Jesus being the strongest and victorious.
okay, rambled long enough.

If someone does not feel that they can cope with trying to debate a heretic then it is silly to try, especially when they outnumber that person. But, when that person does feel that they can then they should, especially when that heretic makes false claims against the Faith; it could, after all, be only those false claims that hold the heretic back from embracing the Faith. We are not in the same situation as the Apostles of the first century; no-one that we’re likely to debate is going to kill us.

That is not what I am talking about. When I was conversing with these two ladies, I was allowing myself to be drawn into sinful conversations about lewd and vulgar things. Christ never did so when He conversed or ate with sinners. He never laughed at the jokes that were lewd. As a matter of fact, He ate with them to let them know that they are important to Him, and that He loves them… and they changed. Remember Zacheeus? He wanted to see Jesus so much that He climbed the sikamore tree just to get a glimpse. Jesus saw into his heart, saw that he wanted to change, and went to his house for supper. I wouldn’t imagine that Jesus was greeted with vulgarity or lewdness or scorn.

My sin was not getting up and leaving immediatly if I was not going to try to talk with them about the saving love of Jesus, and try to teach them about the way He wants us all to live.
Sorry I didn’t make that clear before.

I don’t doubt for a minute that those sinners and tax collectors laughed at lewd jokes. Why cannot we then sit with sinners to let them know they are important to Jesus that that he loves them? Why can’t they change? If we have the strength of faith not to descend to their level I don’t see why not.

 

[Starwynd]

I am positive profanity…especially those about God…are totally not allowable on CAF. Please be more respectful in the future.

It wasn’t the word you think it is.

But it boggles my mind that the word c-r-a-p is considered obscene.

 

[inJESUS]

Tell your friend that God says His words are pure like gold, standing for ever. If Muhammad said otherwise, tell him you prefer to worship God, not Muhammad. We do not believe in a God who lies .

 

[Angelos]

Muslims always claim that the Bible was textually corrupted because

1) the Bible overtly contradicts their scripture
2) the acknowledgement of the Bible as an accurate and authentic text makes Mohammad a liar
3) Muslims need the Bible to prove Mohammad’s claims for prophethood. They cannot discard the Bible altogether because the Koran asks them to believe it. The only way they can find out of this paradox is to believe that the Bible is no more authentic.

Thus, what Muslims assert about the Bible is not based on facts, but on personal opininons and faulty conclusions that from the start prefer the Koran at the expense of the Bible.

 

[AlanF]

Muslims always claim that the Bible was textually corrupted because

1) the Bible overtly contradicts their scripture
2) the acknowledgement of the Bible as an accurate and authentic text makes Mohammad a liar
3) Muslims need the Bible to prove Mohammad’s claims for prophethood. They cannot discard the Bible altogether because the Koran asks them to believe it. The only way they can find out of this paradox is to believe that the Bible is no more authentic.

Thus, what Muslims assert about the Bible is not based on facts, but on personal opininons and faulty conclusions that from the start prefer the Koran at the expense of the Bible.

I certainly got that impression from the messages.

The Bible makes Islam wrong and Muhammad a liar so they have to call it false and unholybut then (with this one at least) they start using verses from the Bible to back up Muhammad, which doesn’t even work anyway.
They seem to think that the few Bible verses that they like are valid but the rest are worng and “corrupt”.

 

[Angelos]

I certainly got that impression from the messages.

The Bible makes Islam wrong and Muhammad a liar so they have to call it false and unholybut then (with this one at least) they start using verses from the Bible to back up Muhammad, which doesn’t even work anyway.
They seem to think that the few Bible verses that they like are valid but the rest are worng and “corrupt”.

It is good to see that you have been aware of the biased Islamic reasoning so quickly. Muslims always make use of their Koran while deciding which verses in the Bible are corrupt and which ones are original. According to their weird mentality, a book written many centuries after the Bible can somehow prove if it is reliable or not. Thus, it is impossible for Muslims to scientifically or historically prove the supposed textual corruption of the scripture other than the Koran.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I don’t doubt for a minute that those sinners and tax collectors laughed at lewd jokes. Why cannot we then sit with sinners to let them know they are important to Jesus that that he loves them? Why can’t they change? If we have the strength of faith not to descend to their level I don’t see why not.

It wasn’t about strength of faith. It was strength to overcome temptation. I am strong in my faith, but that doesn’t mean that my flesh is not weak. My disgust for sin isn’t what it needs to be…it is stronger than it was a year ago, but not enough to overcome all temptation. So, honestly, how would one judge? Does one go to dinner with these sinners and listen to their lewd jokes? Does he figure that he is doing the right thing simply by not laughing and adding his own jokes to the vulgarity? Or does he have to tell them that they are committing sins, and to repent?

I am not trying to be argumentative. I am truly seeking answers here, because I honestly don’t know what those answers are. Do you know what those answers are. They are probably staring me right in the face, but I am too simple to see them. I would appreciate them being pointed out. Thank you.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

It wasn’t the word you think it is.

But it boggles my mind that the word c-r-a-p is considered obscene.

It is obscene when you put the word “holy” in front of it. Holy is a word reserved for something which is either good and pure. To use it in a profane way is obscene.

 

[AlanF]

It wasn’t about strength of faith. It was strength to overcome temptation. I am strong in my faith, but that doesn’t mean that my flesh is not weak. My disgust for sin isn’t what it needs to be…it is stronger than it was a year ago, but not enough to overcome all temptation. So, honestly, how would one judge? Does one go to dinner with these sinners and listen to their lewd jokes? Does he figure that he is doing the right thing simply by not laughing and adding his own jokes to the vulgarity? Or does he have to tell them that they are committing sins, and to repent?

I am not trying to be argumentative. I am truly seeking answers here, because I honestly don’t know what those answers are. Do you know what those answers are. They are probably staring me right in the face, but I am too simple to see them. I would appreciate them being pointed out. Thank you.

I don’t know what the answers are either but I have oppinions about what they might be. I’m also not trying to be argumentative but I appologise if it seemed that way.

Maybe not strength of faith but if someone was certain that they had the strength to overcome temptation like you said and they did use the opportunities to promote Catholic Faith and Catholic morality then I don’t think it would be sinful. I think if we can do the same as Jesus did then it would be good. Although I do agree that if someone has not the strength to overcome the temptation they should probably avoid these people (or maybe pray a lot before they meet them).

So when we think we have the strength to avoid corruption from these people I do not think it would be sinful to meet them as long as we do not join in the lewdness. I believe God wants us to help them.
But I suppose I could be wrong.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I don’t know what the answers are either but I have oppinions about what they might be. I’m also not trying to be argumentative but I appologise if it seemed that way.

Maybe not strength of faith but if someone was certain that they had the strength to overcome temptation like you said and they did use the opportunities to promote Catholic Faith and Catholic morality then I don’t think it would be sinful. I think if we can do the same as Jesus did then it would be good. Although I do agree that if someone has not the strength to overcome the temptation they should probably avoid these people (or maybe pray a lot before they meet them).

So when we think we have the strength to avoid corruption from these people I do not think it would be sinful to meet them as long as we do not join in the lewdness. I believe God wants us to help them.
But I suppose I could be wrong.

I believe that you are right. Do you suppose that this is the reason why Jesus tells us to go out in pairs if not more? So that if one becomes weak, the other will be a sort of support to keep him strong?

 

[AlanF]

I believe that you are right. Do you suppose that this is the reason why Jesus tells us to go out in pairs if not more? So that if one becomes weak, the other will be a sort of support to keep him strong?

Yes, that’s probably the reason.
:yup:

 

[Jolly_Joe]

One thing I didn’t think of when I read the opening was the idea that disagreements among scripture would mean to a Muslim that the scripture is corrupt.

That’s not the case. A Muslim doen’t need to go to the Bible to find contradictions with the Quran, the Quran contradicts the Quran.

The way they deal with that is whatever is God’s last revelation is what is in effect now.

So while the earlier written Quran talks of Christians and Jews in good terms and they should be respected and indeed even asked for truth. The later Quran calls them infidels and that they should be allowed to convert and if not well, that’s too bad.

If contradiction proves corruption, then the Quran is demonstrably contradictory with itself.

JJ