Bible Interpretation and the Catholic Church

[po18guy]

It seems logical to me that what you say is true, that the Catholic Church would be the authority on Bible interpretation. Having no experience with priests at all, however, I am wondering, has this power been transferred to all priests, or do you have to be careful, like you would with a doctor, lawer or veterinarian?

All priests, through their hands-on ordination by a Bishop, are successors to the Apostles and have the authority to consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus. In the Book of Acts, Bishops, Presbyters (priests) and Deacons are specifically mentioned as having positions of authority in the Church. As long as a priest uses the proper matter (unleavened bread and grape wine as mentioned in scripture), and form (the approved words of consecration from scripture), the bread and wine become the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. If they use leavened (with yeast) bread out of necessity or disobedience, they must confess that, since it is neither biblical, nor approved by the Church. However, even leavened bread does become the Body of Christ, since it is wheat bread as mentioned in scripture. If they use something other than grape wine (beer, whisky, grape juice, etc.), it is not valid matter (grape juice is not wine) and the consecration is not valid (it would remain beer or whisky or juice). It must be wheat bread and grape wine, just as Jesus used at the last supper. Notice that all of this, while seeming legalistic, is nothing that the Church required - it is what Jesus required of His Church. He commanded them “Do this” and the Apostles did exactly as He taught them.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Tinothy, first, let’s examine the premise of this entire discourse: You signed up on a Catholic forum at Catholic.com. You knew that this site is dedicated to explaining and defending the Catholic faith, which you may not know: traces directly back to Christ in an unbroken line. Each Catholic priest is able to trace his ordination back to one of the twelve Apostles. So, taking this into account, why are you surprised to confront a defense of the Catholic faith at catholic.com? And the evil one has more knowledge of scripture than you or I. Was the devil correct in his interpretation?

Apples to oranges???

Context: This is addressed to Christians versus the unbaptized, secular world. Where does it say that each individual has the authority to prophesy or interpret scripture simply due to a professed belief in Christ? I think that things not present are being read into scripture here.

Read it again; it applied to the Christian at the moment one receives the holy Spirit. A Christian is an individual and you stated it was addressed to Christians.

Nearly all Christians have the Holy Spirit, but He was not promised to remind us what Jesus taught us, because Jesus taught only the Apostles and sent them forth as teachers.

The Holy Spirit reminds me of many things, but not in the exact same manner as the Apostles, but why is that? God knew it would all be written, so we do not need to recall everything Christ instructed as they needed to; we have the Bible. All Christians have the Holy Spirit, not nearly all. you should read John 17 very carefully and when Jesus gets to where He prays for all Christians, all the promises prayed before apply to all Christians, not just the Apostles.

Context: Jesus spoke this directly to the Apostles, and no one else.

Jesus spoke many things just to the Apostles, that apply to every Christian in the broader sense and this is no exception.

Context: This relates to sanctification and salvation. It says nothing about the ability to prophesy or interpret scripture. Saint Paul says that each is given a different gift (1 Corinthians 12:8-10). Not all are given the gift of prophecy.

Why do you believe the magesterium has the HS for interpretation, where does t say that? See how your argument fails? Prophecy is predicting the future, none of gifts given by the Holy Spirit in include the gift of interpretation except that of tongues. Does the Pope or magesterium speak in tongues, no that gift disappeared a long time ago in the manner Scripture describes.
Context. This is about discernment of spirits, not about the ability to prophesy or interpret scripture. Here you admit it is to discern spirits, one is of evil and the other is of TRUTH.

Context. This is a declaration of pure truth. It is exactly the same as declaring that Jesus is Lord. Where does this say that Timothy Piper (i.e. all Christians) has the authority to prophesy or interpret?

Yes, and the Christian possesses this. Where does it say it was given to a magisterium? Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that a man has the ability to interpret Scripture - no where. Why? It is the work of the HS working in and through the believer.

This is personal opinion. The bible does not say this!

The Bible says this and not only here but in other places as well.

I know that you love and trust Jesus Christ as your personal savior - just as all Catholics do. Bless you for your faith! However, you are laboring under the false assumption that you have somehow gained abilities to prophesy, interpret and teach that you may not have.

That is the most polite way of saying you are wrong, I hope other Catholics like Randy and Guanaphore or CentralJames will learn from you. I don’t claim to prohecy nor interpret; however I can teach to whoever desires to learn.

You profess to teach the faith. But James has warned us: (James 3:1) “Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.”

I take it very serious and also to rightly divide the Word as well; it is a shame to see so much butchery going on. i will profess I can teach the Word of God; not by my own understanding , but by the gift of God.

As well, you believe in private interpretation. So what if I interpret the bible differently? We are just in different denominations. Why do you assume (at the terrible price) that only your version is correct? Please think about this.

No such thing as private interpretation that is accurate as the Bible tells us, that comes from men, the true interpreter is the Holy Spirit that dwells in the Christian, which you have denied.

I give you two thumbs up because you at least tried to explain by Scripture, your points. The work of the Spirit in the Christian and one of the purposes of the Holy Spirit. Something on one else has done up to this point. I am in awe and thank you for that.

Psalm 86 "You alone are God. Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name. I will give thanks to You, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And will glorify Your name forever.

Luke 1 "to write {it} out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

John 8 "Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, {then} you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Continued

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Continued from previous post -
John 17 -
17 **"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. **18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

1 Tim.
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 John
The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I,** but also all who know the truth, **

There is much more about Truth in Scripture, these are but a few, but until you understand how the Christian receives the truth, then you may very well be without the truth; only God knows for sure.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Was Jesus conceived in her by the Holy Spirit?

What does that make Joseph? What does that make the Lord’s brothers and sisters?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

To a bible-only Christian who has been taught that Catholicism is false, yes, it is unbelievqble! From the scriptures, Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb by the Holy Spirit. First, do you believe this?

Where is Holy Matrimony in this?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

It seems logical to me that what you say is true, that the Catholic Church would be the authority on Bible interpretation. Having no experience with priests at all, however, I am wondering, has this power been transferred to all priests, or do you have to be careful, like you would with a doctor, lawer or veterinarian?

Shouldn’t you take a couple of steps back and see if the priest is first of all in Scripture in the Catholic comprehension of priest? If it is, then proceed forward.

 

[po18guy]

What does that make Joseph? What does that make the Lord’s brothers and sisters?

There is nothing that I can say, nothing in almost 2,000 years of Christian history that will convince you. It is not because there is no argument - not because there is no overwhelming evidence. It is solely that you will not, in your current state of belief, be convinced by anything or anyone. I pray that the Holy Spirit will illumine you to the entirety of Christian history. Please understand that you believe that your opinions are correct and that hundreds of millions of believers over the past 20 centuries are all wrong. The early Church fathers, the martyrs, the Saints - all wrong! This position I cannot understand. Know also that many of your doctrines and traditions go back only 100-400 years, then suddenly stop. They simply did not exist before then. Does this not concern you at all?

 

[po18guy]

Shouldn’t you take a couple of steps back and see if the priest is first of all in Scripture in the Catholic comprehension of priest? If it is, then proceed forward.

This was asked and answered. Bishops, priests and Deacons are all in scripture. Your interpretation of that scripture will not allow you to believe this. Luther believed it. Calvin believed it. Zwingli believed it. Why are your beliefs so radically different even from the reformers? That concerns me greatly.

 

[po18guy]

Where is Holy Matrimony in this?

We are talking about the singular action of God, acting through the Holy Spirt by the anunciation of the Angel Gabriel, and the conception of Jesus in the womb of a virgin by supernatural power. The only time this has ever occurred or will ever occur. And, you want to view this as any human wedding?

 

[po18guy]

What does that make Joseph? What does that make the Lord’s brothers and sisters?

Joseph was told in a dream (Matthew 1:19-20) to retain her, as they were already ‘married’, but only had not come to live together. If they were not married, why would Joseph have considered divorcing Mary privately? I suggest you research ancient Jewish marriages to have more complete understanding of this. The bible is incomplete here, because those in biblical times understood all of this. Today, it must be explained to us, since our culture is so vastly different.

As to brothers and sisters, this is documented in scripture as Jesus’ cousins and other relatives. There was no word for ‘cousin’ in Aramaic. Example: Lot was called the ‘brother’ of Abram (Genesis 13:8). However, scripture then tells you that Lot was actually Abram’s nephew (Genesis 11:27). Did scripture lie? No. It is a language difference. Look at Matthew 27:55-56. You see here that the James and Joses mentioned in Mark 6 as the “brothers” of Jesus, are actually the sons of another Mary. Other examples also exist in scripture. This is why context is so important to understanding scripture.

Consider the Ethiopian eunuch and the Apostle Philip (Acts 8:30-31). God Himself, through His angel, told Philip to go to the Ethiopian. Someone with authority must teach and reveal the context. If scripture was self-interpreting, how come the Ethiopian could not understand? Why did the Holy Spirit not teach the eunuch directly, but rather used Philip? This is the authority of the Church. Please ponder this.

 

[po18guy]

I take it very serious and also to rightly divide the Word as well; it is a shame to see so much butchery going on. i will profess I can teach the Word of God; not by my own understanding , but by the gift of God.

To teach requires the ability to interpret. There is no doubt that a spirit is leading you. How can you be sure that it is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit always leads to unity, yet you represent division. Do not discount the incredible influence of the evil one. The fact that you received the Holy Spirit does not make you immune to other spirits. We live in the princedom of the evil one, and are subject both to him and to every one of his spirits. I refer to 1 and 2 John. Please pray for the ability to discern spirits before you claim to speak for God. If you are wrong, you are angering the Lord. I pray for you!

One thing that troubles me greatly: You disagree with Lutherans on many precepts of Christianity. You differ with the Presbyterians, the Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptists, Mennonites, Episcopalians and on and on through the thousands of denominations. Yet, you criticize the teaching of only one Church - the only Church on earth (other than the Orthodox) which traces in an unbroken line back to Christ through the twelve Apostles. Do you believe that God has sent you as his personal Moses to attack this Church? Or, do you perhaps lack understanding of Catholicism? You have unshakable faith, but clearly have been taught by someone that the Catholic faith is false. Question those who taught you this and you will find that they know extremely little about what they criticize.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[juliamajor]

Shouldn’t you take a couple of steps back and see if the priest is first of all in Scripture in the Catholic comprehension of priest? If it is, then proceed forward.

Shouldn’t you take a step back and stop being so smarmy?

 

[diggerdomer]

It seems logical to me that what you say is true, that the Catholic Church would be the authority on Bible interpretation. Having no experience with priests at all, however, I am wondering, has this power been transferred to all priests, or do you have to be careful, like you would with a doctor, lawer or veterinarian?

It’s given to the Church. Not individuals.

 

[po18guy]

It’s given to the Church. Not individuals.

Exactly. Christ established a Church in Matthew 16, not merely individual believers. Those believers make up His Church, but Christ sent forth Apostles to teach, not mere believers. He sent them forth, not with easily misinterpreted writings, but with inerrant teachings. Private interpretation of scripture and the influence of the ego lead to the great heresy of Arianism. Arius, by his own authority, denied that Christ was Divine. He came to possess great power and influence. Saint Athanasius, in 37 years as a Bishop, spent 16 in exile at the hands of Arius. Of course, Arius and his followers died off, having no foundation for their beliefs other than ego and opinion.

 

[seth349]

And when you say the authority is given to the church and not individuals, you are saying church as representing the clergy and individuals as representing the parishioners?

 

[po18guy]

And when you say the authority is given to the church and not individuals, you are saying church as representing the clergy and individuals as representing the parishioners?

Yes, this is what Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 1:20. We are all members of Christ’s Body, which is His Church. But Christ placed Apostles in charge so that it would not disintegrate once He ascended. Those Apostles ordained their own successors when they were older and left them in charge. As you can see, the Church has not disintegrated, and is often criticized as being too inflexible and old-fashioned. The Church which has hard teachings is the true Church, as Christ’s teachings are hard for us.

 

[diggerdomer]

Exactly. Christ established a Church in Matthew 16, not merely individual believers. Those believers make up His Church, but Christ sent forth Apostles to teach, not mere believers. He sent them forth, not with easily misinterpreted writings, but with inerrant teachings. Private interpretation of scripture and the influence of the ego lead to the great heresy of Arianism. Arius, by his own authority, denied that Christ was Divine. He came to possess great power and influence. Saint Athanasius, in 37 years as a Bishop, spent 16 in exile at the hands of Arius. Of course, Arius and his followers died off, having no foundation for their beliefs other than ego and opinion.

If Christ sent them forth with infallible teachings, why did Peter, Paul, and other Apostles have to gather in Jerusalem and argue about, disagree on, and resolve among themselves whether or not Gentiles had to be circumcised to follow Christ (see Acts 15 and Gal 2)? Apparently Jesus didn’t give them an inerrant teaching on that. Did He?

 

[juliamajor]

To a certain extent we do interpret scripture because not every line in scripture has been dogmatically defined.Saying that ,I think if you look at principles laid out by the church and in the catechism and a little common sense you should be ok.When in doubt consult someone in authority.
The problem with every man interpreting according to what he thinks the Holy Spirit is saying is David Koresh, Jim Jones, snake handlers, poison drinkers etc. How can every individual be led by the Spirit to interpret yet come to so many different conclusions? Is the Spirit wrong? or are the myriad of interpreters wrong?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

There is nothing that I can say, nothing in almost 2,000 years of Christian history that will convince you. It is not because there is no argument - not because there is no overwhelming evidence. It is solely that you will not, in your current state of belief, be convinced by anything or anyone. I pray that the Holy Spirit will illumine you to the entirety of Christian history. Please understand that you believe that your opinions are correct and that hundreds of millions of believers over the past 20 centuries are all wrong. The early Church fathers, the martyrs, the Saints - all wrong! This position I cannot understand. Know also that many of your doctrines and traditions go back only 100-400 years, then suddenly stop. They simply did not exist before then. Does this not concern you at all?

Which doctrines would those be; please be specific rather than the typical “I’m right, 2000 years is right because I say so” There is very good reason I use Scripture to present the truth because it is where you will find the truth, but only for those that desire to follow Him. I stand firm in the Word of God.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

This was asked and answered. Bishops, priests and Deacons are all in scripture. Your interpretation of that scripture will not allow you to believe this. Luther believed it. Calvin believed it. Zwingli believed it. Why are your beliefs so radically different even from the reformers? That concerns me greatly.

Probably because I stand firm in the Word of God, in which you will not find a priest in your understanding of the word. I do not concern myself with what others believe; i will will consider those beliefs in light of Scripture, but if it fails the only true and faithful litmus test, which is the Word of God; I reject it and if it accords with His Word, I embrace it.