Bible, Quran – Beauties Beyond Comparison?

[seraphime2008]

was billow topped by billow were known either ?

anyway , Professor Dorja Rao, he is a specialist in Marine Geology confirmed that scientists now know darkness by means of submarines that have enabled them to dive into the depths of the ocean, where human beings are not able to dive unaided for more than twenty to thirty meters. Those who dive for pearls do so in shallow waters and can not dive any deeper than this. Human beings can not survive in the deep dark part of the oceans, such as at a depth of 200 meters. But this verse speaks about a phenomenon found in very deep oceans.

beside . the statement of Allah about the darkness in a vast deep sea does not refer to just any sea, because not every sea can be described as having accumulated darkness layered one over another

When an average person come to the sea and observe, they would know that even at glance they couldn’t see whatever in side the water already at certain depth. Hei…I believe u also have sea in Egypt? Or not?

what are you saying ! , i didn’t say that place where allah satys is hot , nor did i said that heavin is hot

all what i said that scientifically the iron metal must be formed on another place that have very high temperature and then it is sent to earth
ad quran said the allah sent down the iron to the earth . that’s all

***In Indonesia we have steel factory, very huge one! I don’t think they take the material from the meteor landed here some time ago… I believe they take it from a certain mine. And u know the Fe or ferrum that counts to be economical is the one that is produced in magmatic eruption! so it must be contained already deep down the earth.Go…read and find urself.

---

i’m sorry to tell you that actually quran was numbered and ordered by the prophet before his death

eh…the number of Fe is 26 and ur claim was actually 25. And btw, to make it acceptable to be the same number, u got to do something to make it match!

make your research about big bang theory
***Does big bang say about heaven? What is heaven to u? The universe it self? I got an impression that heaven is somewhere in another planet then…

---

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

quran isn’t a mere book , For Muslims, the miraculousness of the Quran is not only a matter of religious belief, but for scholars and researchers it is a matter of scientific belief. The Quran possesses a remarkable comprehensiveness and richness, with respect to its world view and scientific content, and its ability to guide not only the individual and society in spiritual aspect, but also in the realms of natural environment and mysteries of life. There are still many matters contained in the Quran that call for investigation and await discovery by further research.

You seem to be ignoring the gist of the argument and continue falling back on “The Koran is a science book” argument, which has been responded to by Christian apologists over and over again for the past decade or so. Of course, no early Muslim apologist or companion of the prophet ever tried to pass off the Koran as a science book, and it just as silly for Muslims to use this argument as it is for Christians to try to use this argument for the Bible. Neither book was written to discuss science.

In fact, I know of the author you mentioned, and a Christian scientist wrote an entire book in response, examining some of the other author’s claims and the real science in the Koran. Something a lot of Muslims leave out is that most people in the Arabia of that time knew some of what is discussed in the Koran. Much like how much of the Koran was taken from heretical apocrypha readily available at the time, much of the “science” in the Koran was already known. It’d be like if I wrote a religious book and said that the planets in our universe revolved around the sun, and thousands of years later my followers used that as evidence of “a miracle” - it would be too absurd to even be considered an attempt at argumentation.

The limitation in time of the miracles performed by the earlier Prophets was an indication of the impermanence of their religions and the laws that they brought. By contrast, the miracle attesting to the prophethood for the Prophet of Islam cannot be temporally limited, because his message is universal and represents the culmination of all preceding religions; his prophethood requires an eternal miracle, a brilliant and eloquent proof of its immortality embedded with the ongoing scientific discoveries.

Never was this stated by God as the reason to elevate a miracle or position. As I showed before with quotes from the Torat (which you seemed to completely ignore) God used miracles to prove who His prophets were. They were a confirmation that they came from Him. You once claimed that Paul performed no miracles - in fact, Paul performed far more miracles than Mohammad did - mainly because Mohammad’s true miracles number zero. Mohammad performed no miracles - the Koran does not count. No one ever argued the Torat as a book was a miracle of Moses, nor that the Injil was a miracle of Jesus - it was the actions of miracles they performed during their earthly lives that counted. It was the ten plagues, the splitting of the Red Sea, the coming down of manna, the sprout of water from the rock, and many other actions that made the people know Moses from God. It was the healing of the blind, sick, lepers, and raising of the dead that let the people know Who Christ was. It was the similar miracles performed by the apostles who let the people know on Whose side they were. What miracle does Mohammad give us supposedly? He gives us some revelations he claims are from God and backs it up with, “Take my word for it.” Compared to previous miracles granted by God through His prophets, this is incredibly weak - especially for he who is supposedly the last prophet.

Now I’d like you to answer my question, which you have continued to avoid, and I’d like you to actually answer it and not go off on a side rant: if you say a single revealed book (the Koran) is a miracle, does that not equate that the Mormons are right to say the Book of Mormon is a miracle as well? That’s really a yes or no answer, and I’d like at least a yes or no answer.

 

[elwill]

When an average person come to the sea and observe, they would know that even at glance they couldn’t see whatever in side the water already at certain depth. Hei…I believe u also have sea in Egypt? Or not?

yes we have sea in egypt , but our prophet wasn’t egyption

this verse described the darkness to be layered one over another

not every sea can be described as having accumulated darkness layered one over another.

It refers especially to a deep sea or deep ocean, as the QUR’AN says, ‘darkness in a vast deep ocean.’ This layered darkness in a deep ocean is the result of two causes:

1. A light ray is composed of seven colours. These seven colours are Violet, Indigo, Blue. Green, Yellow, Orange and Red(VIBGYOR). The light ray undergoes refraction when it hits water. The upper 10 to 15 metres of water absorb the red colour. Therefore if a diver is 25 metres under water and gets wounded, he would not be able to see the red colour of his blood, because the red colour does not reach this depth. Similarly orange rays are absorbed at 30 to 50 metres, yellow at 50 to 100 metres, green at 100 to 200 metres, and finally, blue beyond 200 metres and violet and indigo above 200 metres. Due to successive disapperance of colour, one layer after another, the ocean progressively becomes darker, i.e. darkness takes place in layers of light. Below a depth of 1000 metres there is complete darkness.{Oceans, Elder and Pernetta, p.27}

2.The sun’s rays are absorbed by clouds which in turn scatter light rays thus causing a layer of darkness under the clouds. This is the first layer of darkness. When light rays reach the surface of the ocean they are reflected by the wave surface giving it a shiny appearance. Therefore it is the waves which reflect light and cause darkness.The unreflected light penetrates into the depths of the ocean. Therefore the ocean has two parts. The surface characterized by light and warmth and the depth characterized by darkness. The surface is further separated from the deep part of the ocean by waves. The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. The darkness begins below the internal waves. Even the fish in the depths of the ocean cannot see; their only source of light is from their own bodies.The QUR’AN rightly mentions:
“Darkness in a vast deep ocean overwhelmed with waves topped by waves.”

In other words, above these waves there are more types of waves, i.e. those found on the surface of the ocean. The Qur’anic verse continues,

“topped by (dark) clouds; depths of darkness, one above another.”

These clouds as explained are barriers one over the other that further cause darkness by absorption of colours at different levels.
Prof. Durga Rao concluded by saying, “1400 years ago a normal human being could not explain this phenomenon in so much detail. Thus the information must have come from a supernatural source.”

In Indonesia we have steel factory, very huge one! I don’t think they take the material from the meteor landed here some time ago… I believe they take it from a certain mine. And u know the Fe or ferrum that counts to be economical is the one that is produced in magmatic eruption! so it must be contained already deep down the earth.Go…read and find urself.

im talking about the creation of raw iron itself . and seems to me that you complain the scientific dicoveries not the quran . don’t you believe in science ?

eh…the number of Fe is 26 and ur claim was actually 25. And btw, to make it acceptable to be the same number, u got to do something to make it match!

but i didn’t say the number of verse is 26 , a said :
This verse marks the** 26th occurrence **of the word God (Allah) from the beginning of this sura. 26 also happens to be the Atomic Number of iron!

we begin every chapter in the quran saying " in the name of God the most Gracious , most mercifull "
only one chapter in quran we don’t begin with this verse

Does big bang say about heaven? What is heaven to u? The universe it self? I got an impression that heaven is somewhere in another planet then…

i believe that God created 7 heavins , the lowst of them is what we see invloved the sun and stars and planets
it dosn’t mean the paradise if you thought so

inform me if you ready to hear more about what we believe that it’s miracles about quran

 

[elwill]

You seem to be ignoring the gist of the argument and continue falling back on “The Koran is a science book” argument, which has been responded to by Christian apologists over and over again for the past decade or so. Of course, no early Muslim apologist or companion of the prophet ever tried to pass off the Koran as a science book, and it just as silly for Muslims to use this argument as it is for Christians to try to use this argument for the Bible. Neither book was written to discuss science.

quran dosn’t dicuss the science , it’s just refer to it as an indication for the unbelievers that this quran is god’s word

In fact, I know of the author you mentioned, and a Christian scientist wrote an entire book in response, examining some of the other author’s claims and the real science in the Koran. Something a lot of Muslims leave out is that most people in the Arabia of that time knew some of what is discussed in the Koran. Much like how much of the Koran was taken from heretical apocrypha readily available at the time, much of the “science” in the Koran was already known. It’d be like if I wrote a religious book and said that the planets in our universe revolved around the sun, and thousands of years later my followers used that as evidence of “a miracle” - it would be too absurd to even be considered an attempt at argumentation.

okey

Never was this stated by God as the reason to elevate a miracle or position. As I showed before with quotes from the Torat (which you seemed to completely ignore) God used miracles to prove who His prophets were. They were a confirmation that they came from Him. You once claimed that Paul performed no miracles - in fact, Paul performed far more miracles than Mohammad did - mainly because Mohammad’s true miracles number zero. Mohammad performed no miracles - the Koran does not count. No one ever argued the Torat as a book was a miracle of Moses, nor that the Injil was a miracle of Jesus - it was the actions of miracles they performed during their earthly lives that counted. It was the ten plagues, the splitting of the Red Sea, the coming down of manna, the sprout of water from the rock, and many other actions that made the people know Moses from God. It was the healing of the blind, sick, lepers, and raising of the dead that let the people know Who Christ was. It was the similar miracles performed by the apostles who let the people know on Whose side they were. What miracle does Mohammad give us supposedly? He gives us some revelations he claims are from God and backs it up with, “Take my word for it.” Compared to previous miracles granted by God through His prophets, this is incredibly weak - especially for he who is supposedly the last prophet.

you are talking about miracles of prophets where latest generation can’t to witness it , you can challange me with what you hear , but i can challange you with what we have
you can’t discuss with me new miracle for your prophet every year , but i can give you new miracles every year and for every generation from the knowledge of quran

after all , our prophet performed many miracles , we just say that quran is the everlasting one
the journy to jeuruslim was miracle , and his splitting for the moon was another miracle , i can give you many miracles where the companions of prophets witnesses it either

Now I’d like you to answer my question, which you have continued to avoid, and I’d like you to actually answer it and not go off on a side rant: if you say a single revealed book (the Koran) is a miracle, does that not equate that the Mormons are right to say the Book of Mormon is a miracle as well? That’s really a yes or no answer, and I’d like at least a yes or no answer.

i said to you before , that anyone can claim whatever he want .
if somone told me that he have a miracle , i will ask him to show me
and i want from you to show me what is the mircles in the mormon book

i believe that book of mormon not more than book of guidence according to them , but not a miracle

 

[seraphime2008]

yes we have sea in egypt , but our prophet wasn’t egyption

**Though he was not egyptian, of course he had travelled and perhaps find some fishermen or were told stories about it
**
this verse described the darkness to be layered one over another

not every sea can be described as having accumulated darkness layered one over another.

It refers especially to a deep sea or deep ocean, as the QUR’AN says, ‘darkness in a vast deep ocean.’ This layered darkness in a deep ocean is the result of two causes:

1. A light ray is composed of seven colours. These seven colours are Violet, Indigo, Blue. Green, Yellow, Orange and Red(VIBGYOR). The light ray undergoes refraction when it hits water. The upper 10 to 15 metres of water absorb the red colour. Therefore if a diver is 25 metres under water and gets wounded, he would not be able to see the red colour of his blood, because the red colour does not reach this depth. Similarly orange rays are absorbed at 30 to 50 metres, yellow at 50 to 100 metres, green at 100 to 200 metres, and finally, blue beyond 200 metres and violet and indigo above 200 metres. Due to successive disapperance of colour, one layer after another, the ocean progressively becomes darker, i.e. darkness takes place in layers of light. Below a depth of 1000 metres there is complete darkness.{Oceans, Elder and Pernetta, p.27}

**So what here can’t be observed by eyes? I believe fishermen did swim and dive that time, and now. Or they didn’t at that time?
**

2.The sun’s rays are absorbed by clouds which in turn scatter light rays thus causing a layer of darkness under the clouds. This is the first layer of darkness. When light rays reach the surface of the ocean they are reflected by the wave surface giving it a shiny appearance. Therefore it is the waves which reflect light and cause darkness.The unreflected light penetrates into the depths of the ocean. Therefore the ocean has two parts. The surface characterized by light and warmth and the depth characterized by darkness. The surface is further separated from the deep part of the ocean by waves. The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. The darkness begins below the internal waves. Even the fish in the depths of the ocean cannot see; their only source of light is from their own bodies.The QUR’AN rightly mentions:
“Darkness in a vast deep ocean overwhelmed with waves topped by waves.”

In other words, above these waves there are more types of waves, i.e. those found on the surface of the ocean. The Qur’anic verse continues,

“topped by (dark) clouds; depths of darkness, one above another.”

Bahhhh…u’re really-really joking…u mention about deep vast ocean…clearly any fishermen can say that tooo! They can see moving from shallow sea to the deeper part of the sea, the color of the sea changes, from light green to deep blue . U really think that making this into scientifical nonsense could help proof miracle? Nah…

These clouds as explained are barriers one over the other that further cause darkness by absorption of colours at different levels.
Prof. Durga Rao concluded by saying, “1400 years ago a normal human being could not explain this phenomenon in so much detail. Thus the information must have come from a supernatural source.”

**Well…I can only say that this is just taking verses into the whole new meaning with a wanting-to-believe mind.
**
im talking about the creation of raw iron itself . and seems to me that you complain the scientific dicoveries not the quran . don’t you believe in science ?

**U re the one that saying that iron can only be sent from heaven
If u want to know, what makes iron become strong is not the Fe in intself, but the Carbon. and what u mentioned from the Koran, I got an impression that because it can only be form in another place, because it needs heat to form it, then any other minerals and all the other element of the earth might come from another place. And btw, iron is mineral as in Fe is found most abundant on earth compared to the other mineral, and hei human being as well as other organic creature do have some amount of iron in them. Do they come from the other planet? Then it must so said that we’re all once alien coming from other planet or other part of the universe? …And if u’re saying it’s part of the process of what all human being as well as the earth and what it contains come from somewhere else in the universe, then ur argument can’t be applied.

Whatever u said about it, it just seems to be more laughable. What scientist r u referring to? Ur Koran seems to say that it was sent like rain or something from above.
J. Reuben post was very hilarious!**

but i didn’t say the number of verse is 26 , a said :
This verse marks the 26th occurrence of the word God (Allah) from the beginning of this sura. 26 also happens to be the Atomic Number of iron!

we begin every chapter in the quran saying " in the name of God the most Gracious , most mercifull "
only one chapter in quran we don’t begin with this verse

B]Yeah…definitely u have to do something to macth that, since the numbering is actually regardless the word Allah mentioned. Nice try…But…whatever.

i believe that God created 7 heavins , the lowst of them is what we see invloved the sun and stars and planets
it dosn’t mean the paradise if you thought so

**Well then it just not proven, since the scientist talking about bigbang doesn’t say anything that has to do with heaven or paradise, they’re only talking about universe in material matter, aren’t they?
**
inform me if you ready to hear more about what we believe that it’s miracles about quran
**
Not necessary. Ur Koran can’t be realiable about the past, what can’t be expected talking about the science.

And BTW, all those scientific claim u said, were not found or discovered on the base of the verses of the Koran. In that case, what we can say is that muslim is trying very hard to matchmake them. And what advantage do those claim help any Muslim to get any advancement in their civilization?or at least to their hostility at other people?**

 

[dzheremi]

darkness layered one over another

Excuse me, but what the heck does this even mean? While you keep saying that “not every sea can be described that way”, I don’t see any reason why not. It is poetic language, not a scientific description of anything. It doesn’t mean anything until you decide to graft it on to later (actual) facts in order to “prove” the miraculous nature of the Qur’an.

In other words: it means whatever you want it to mean, which is a lousy place from which to begin any scientific inquiry.

Enough Qu’ranic psuedo-science masquerading as divine miracles. I’ve never read anything by any Christian that claims that the decipherment of the Hittite language, for instance, is any sort of “proof” as to the authenticity or veracity of the Bible just because the Bible mentioned those people, and that’s a much less vague connection to modern discoveries than this silly “deep dark ocean” talk.

 

[jakasaki]

Hmmm. I don’t know what to tell you. It comes up immediately for me from the given link (at ninevehsoft.com - Assyrian software company), but here it is from a different Assyrian site, www.christiansofiraq.com: “What Arab Civilization?”

Hopefully this one will work for you!

Yes indeed, now it works, thank you Dzherimi

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

quran dosn’t dicuss the science , it’s just refer to it as an indication for the unbelievers that this quran is god’s word

Scientific facts do not denote God’s word. I say again, neither the Koran nor the Bible were written (or to put more accurately, collected) to be a science book. As I showed before, God revealed Himself with the consistency of His message and the miracles of His prophets. Mohammad cannot offer anything similar. If God’s proof of miracles are cool little scientific facts, then it is once again another sign that God, for some strange reason, changed his method of revelation.

okey

I take by this platitude you accept what I say. In that case, the “Koran is a science book” argument is no longer relevant.

you are talking about miracles of prophets where latest generation can’t to witness it , you can challange me with what you hear , but i can challange you with what we have
you can’t discuss with me new miracle for your prophet every year , but i can give you new miracles every year and for every generation from the knowledge of quran

There are no “new miracles” from the Koran - the Koran is a written book, or a collection of revelations - put together into a finite copy. One could easily argue there are “new miracles” coming from the Bible, but few will argue this because, once again, the definition of a “miracle” to Jews and Christians has never been a single book.

after all , our prophet performed many miracles , we just say that quran is the everlasting one
the journy to jeuruslim was miracle , and his splitting for the moon was another miracle , i can give you many miracles where the companions of prophets witnesses it either

Then by all means give them, because you will not wow Christians over, nor win them over, by saying a single book is a miracle. It may score you points among other Muslims, but if you’re goal is to win Christians to your side, it will not happen.

i said to you before , that anyone can claim whatever he want .
if somone told me that he have a miracle , i will ask him to show me
and i want from you to show me what is the mircles in the mormon book

i believe that book of mormon not more than book of guidence according to them , but not a miracle

Muslims claim the Koran is a miracle - they do not argue miracles are IN there, that has only come about obviously because many here are pressed into a corner. Mormons claim the Book of Mormon is a miracle - I gave reference from a LDS site to prove this. You have continued to avoid giving what is, as I said, a yes or no answer.

You did, however, admit that you do not consider it a miracle. Why, then, is the Book of Mormon not a miracle but the Koran is? Because Mohammad claimed the Koran is? Or some certifiable reason?

 

[planten]

**B W, the Quran itself is a miracle. Whereas all the previous scriptures were lost with the time, and they were not meant to remain forever, and they were only for that time and those people only, the Quran is for all people of the world for all times. Such things are written in the Quran itself.

Allah had also given His word that He had sent down the Quran and He would protect it too. We do not say anything about your bible which is with you now. You know better.

Now about other miracles. Quran is full of miracles of the past and present and full of miracles for the future. The miracles of Quran are seen and observed even today. It needs a pure open eye to observe those miracles. Spiritual eye is needed.

All old trees (spiritual systems) have dried up. Those gardens bear no fruit now. There is no news in other religions from God now. They have sealed the gate of Communion with God. But islam claims that God will keep on speaking to his beloved ones (saints)throughout all times. But other religions deny any such thing. Please think over:

1. Is jesus alive today, as he was alive in the world, or he has passed away peacefully?
2. Does God speak to any men now and give some kind of news of the unseen things?

Please tell YES or NO. Then we will discuss the miracles of the Quran. Thanks.

**

 

[dzheremi]

Planten, Planten, Planten…what are we going to do with you, buddy? So many

B W, the Quran itself is a miracle.

So the mere existence of the book is proof of its miraculousness? That’s not a very high standard of proof. By that measure, we could talk about Hindu writings that have been in existence for much longer than the Qur’an or the Bible. The Vedas are some of the oldest religious texts in the world, from ~1,500 BC.

Whereas all the previous scriptures were lost with the time, and they were not meant to remain forever, and they were only for that time and those people only, the Quran is for all people of the world for all times. Such things are written in the Quran itself.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

B W, the Quran itself is a miracle. [etc]

Congratulations on simply repeating an argument without addressing the other person’s points. Again, Muslims will have to come up with something better if they hope to win Christians over and all they have to offer is the following:

Such things are written in the Quran itself.

Circular logic (“It’s true because the Koran says it is”) is the most fallacious argumentation there is.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Reuben,

My conversion to Evangelical Christianity just as I reached my half–century in the year 2000 was for me and for those around me a life–altering experience. It was a slow process and, naturally enough, it involved a gradual ever–changing shift in my perspective. But as I look back and reflect upon the vivid contrast between the way I used to look at life and the way I now perceive it to be I have to acknowledge a huge difference. I was very cynical. According to the statistics (so I’ve been told) the older one gets the less likelihood there is of a dramatic alteration to one’s worldview because as we get older we generally prefer to stick with what is familiar and merely rearrange our prejudices from time to time. But because of my conversion that pattern didn’t impose itself in my case and that’s at least curious. I mean, why me?

Part of that gradual conversion experience for me was to be introduced to the Bible. When I read the Bible (of 66 books, naturally ) for the first time I started at Genesis 1:1 intending to go all the way through to the final Amen at the end of the Book of the Revelation. But that proved to be an unwise strategy. I had to give up in total confusion around the Second Book of Chronicles. Only after I was taught that in order to understand the Bible one must first learn how the Bible is put together was I able to make any sense of the Good Book. And as I became familiar with the contents of the Bible I came across phrases that I’d heard before and had even used myself – and I came to realize that I’d done this without knowing that they’d been lifted from the Bible. So when I used the word “curious” I had in mind my own subjective impressions during my gradual conversion from somewhere between agnosticism and deism to Evangelical Christianity. Curious. Indeed, not only curious but perhaps even curiouser and curiouser.

Anyway, on to the ones you highlighted.

This occurs in the Book of Ecclesiastes, which, in the 66–book Bible, is the penultimate Wisdom Book. Its title gives no indication of its content so it came as a complete surprise to me to discover that the writer of Ecclesiastes was just as cynical about life as I was. Then, when I was told that the writer was probably King Solomon, I was even more surprised. Wasn’t he the wise guy? I mean, there was that well–known simile familiar to everybody: As wise as Solomon. Well, now, it seemed to me that if when King Solomon lived there was nothing new under the sun i.e. nothing new in life and he’d even felt prompted to record his thoughts on the subject then perhaps my own cynicism might fall away and I might become wise like King Solomon. And my cynicism did indeed gradually fall away. But I’m still waiting for the wisdom part to kick in.

This occurs in the Book of Job, which, in the 66–book Bible, is the first Wisdom Book. And, of course, when I came to the Book of Job I recalled that well–known simile familiar to everybody: As patient as Job. I have to say that I didn’t think Job was very patient. It seemed to me that he did quite a lot of moaning and groaning and that’s a trait not usually associated with patience. Still, he did have some very annoying friends. I suppose he persevered. That’s just about the same thing. One can persevere and still have a good old moan without anybody suggesting that one is not trying to persevere. The curious phrase “escaped with only the skin of my teeth,” (some people say by the skin of my teeth) although familiar was one I’d never really thought about. And, then, when I thought about it, it just seemed weird!

In the 66–book Bible, this occurs at the beginning of the second book of Samuel, which is the fifth history book. King David speaks these words lamenting the death of his friend, Jonathan – although Saul who had also died would have been in King David’s thoughts as well since Saul was the Lord’s anointed. It’s a dramatic turn of phrase. It’s perhaps seen in print rather more than heard spoken. Nevertheless, I think I might look for an opportunity to use it in conversation in the near future. People hearing me say it might think that I’m wise.

Cordially,
Mick

Thanks Mick for your testimony and (name removed by moderator)ut on the said Biblical verses. I am way behind in my posts most of the time, but I appreciate your response. It is always edifying to hear from someone who is inspired by the Bible and whose life has been changed by it.

Your post serves this thread very well that demonstrates the beauty, wisdom and power of the Bible. The sayings from the Bible have been accepted as universal wisdom and been used by Christians and non-Christian alike to denote thought and wisdom wherever applies.

To elwill, you have failed to show the same from the Quran. Your effort to pass the Quran as scientific book does not convince. For example, the the deep sea which appears dark. For you to say that this is scientifically proven is just like me quoting the Book of Genesis - "God called the light “day”, and the darkness he called “night”. And there was evening, and there was morning … (Gen 1:5).. And then go on to say this is scientifically proven because nobody knew that day was light and night was dark at the time of creation because it had not happen before. Then I would go on to explain that it is proven scientifically true today – and so what beauty therefore is the Bible. Of course you know how ridiculous that claim is.

Even if the Quran is a miracle because of the uniqueness of Arabic, then you make Allah unable to share that beauty in other languages as has been explain earlier by dzheremi.

As for the claim that the Quran is scientifically correct, all I need to do is to point to you one Quranic verse that is in error and that argument would be instantly debunked. And there is error in the Quran scientifically and so that line of argument is already debunked.

God bless.

 

[elwill]

To elwill, you have failed to show the same from the Quran. Your effort to pass the Quran as scientific book does not convince. For example, the the deep sea which appears dark. For you to say that this is scientifically proven is just like me quoting the Book of Genesis - "God called the light “day”, and the darkness he called “night”. And there was evening, and there was morning … (Gen 1:5).. And then go on to say this is scientifically proven because nobody knew that day was light and night was dark at the time of creation because it had not happen before. Then I would go on to explain that it is proven scientifically true today – and so what beauty therefore is the Bible. Of course you know how ridiculous that claim is.

moses (pbuh) show faroah his miracles , but it wasn’t convinced to him either

it dosn’t mattar with me if you are convinced or not , but i share with you what we see as a proof that quran is from God , that’s all

Even if the Quran is a miracle because of the uniqueness of Arabic, then you make Allah unable to share that beauty in other languages as has been explain earlier by dzheremi.

allah responded to such argument in quran

44 - Had We sent this as a Quran (in a language) other than Arabic, they would have said: Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger) an Arab? Say: It is a guide and a healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): they are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!

As for the claim that the Quran is scientifically correct, all I need to do is to point to you one Quranic verse that is in error and that argument would be instantly debunked. And there is error in the Quran scientifically and so that line of argument is already debunked.
God bless.

and i accept your challange , give me one , just one scientific error in quran

God bless

 

[Jay53]

and i accept your challange , give me one , just one scientific error in quran

God bless

The Qur’an on Embryology
In 1982 Keith Moore, an anatomy professor at the University of Toronto, produced a textbook titled “The Developing Human, 3rd edition”. In this book Moore states his astonishment at the way embryonic development is depicted in the Qur’an. Moore would go on to produce fourth and fifth editions of his textbook, as well as another book titled “Human Development as described in the Quran and Sunnah”, all of which many Muslims cite with great pleasure. Moore and his Muslim supporters are referring to the following verse:

We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)

Indeed, at first glance, this seems like a remarkable statement for a “7th century desert Arab” to make. However, upon closer study, one realizes that there is both explanation and error to this verse. First we must ask if this was an original theory, and second we must ask if it is correct.

Many people are amazed by the mention of sperm in this verse. This is nothing special. Since the beginning of time man has been aware of the “seed” that is released from the penis during sexual intercourse. The Bible, a text much older than the Qur’an, tells a story of a man who was struck down by God for “spilling his seed on the ground” (Genesis 38:9-10).

The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur’an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur’an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur’an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur’an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:

He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur’an 86:6-7)

Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad’s time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.

There are those who claim Muhammad had no contact with Greeks or Romans. Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad.

Finally, to touch back on the verses that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Qur’an stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God “clothed the bones with flesh” (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Qur’an. infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

 

[jblake]

elwill;:

and i accept your challenge , give me one , just one scientific error in quran

Six theological contradictions.

The commandment to worship al-Wāqidī, Ibn Sa’d, al-Tabarī, and Ibn Ishaq contradicts the commandment to only worship Allah.

All six pillars of Islam are completely, utterly, and absolutely refuted by the q’ran, which also happens to be the source of those six pillars.

jonathon

 

[planten]

Six theological contradictions.

The commandment to worship al-Wāqidī, Ibn Sa’d, al-Tabarī, and Ibn Ishaq contradicts the commandment to only worship Allah.

All six pillars of Islam are completely, utterly, and absolutely refuted by the q’ran, which also happens to be the source of those six pillars.

jonathon

**We do not understand what you are talking about. that is not the way to raise any objection. Please be explicit. Also do not raise any objection for which the bibleNt may be quiet or also guilty. Welcome.

Jay53 has done his/her full effort to dispute the miracles of Quran. Jay tried to prove that sperm was well known at the time of bibleOT. But Jay did it with only one passing remark.

Then Jay went on to ridicule the teachings of the Quran from various angles. that Romans and Greeks also knew many such things before Muhammad. We see that Jesus was much closer to the Romans and the Greeks. We do not see any sensible word from jesus on those lines/ subjects. Why is that?

i may point out to christian friends that the quran is not really emphasising how a child is born. It is not describing anatomy only. It describes how apparantly a sperm is put in the womb and the development starts (i.e. physical development). But that is not the end. Life it put into that object and it becomes quite a different thing. It becomes a different creation.**

The words are there, at end of verse. Please see the whole verse and emphasis is at end of the verse. I wil soon present the concerned verses.

 

[planten]

**[23:12] وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْاِنْسَانَ مِنْ سُلٰلَةٍ مِّنْ طِيْنٍ‌ۚ‏

[23:12] Verily, We created man from an extract of clay;​

[23:13] ثُمَّ جَعَلْنٰهُ نُطْفَةً فِىْ قَرَارٍ مَّكِيْنٍ‏

[23:13] Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository;​

[23:14] ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظٰمًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظٰمَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ اَنْشَاْنٰهُ خَلْقًا اٰخَرَ‌ؕ فَتَبٰرَكَ اللّٰهُ اَحْسَنُ الْخٰلِقِيْنَؕ‏

[23:14] Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; then We clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed it into another creation.** So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.

 

[jblake]

planten":

We do not understand what you are talking about.

My understanding was that you, at a minimum, were familiar with the q’ran, if not a practicing muslim.

Since it appears that you are unfamiliar with al-Wāqidī, Ibn Sa’d, al-Tabarī, and Ibn Ishaq , you are either ignorant of the q’ran, or not a practicing muslim, or neither familiar with muslim theology, or the q’ran.

In the offchance that you are a Friday muslim, I’ll just point out that all six pillars of the q’ran are contradicted by, and refuted by the q’ran, in the same manner as I showed that the q’ran teaches polytheism.

do not raise any objection for which the bibleNt may be quiet or also guilty.

I was using the criteria of the q’ran for determining if something is of the One True God, to demonstrate that the q’ran is, by its own admission and criteria, a thing not from the One True God.

jonathon

 

[Hadi]

My understanding was that you, at a minimum, were familiar with the q’ran, if not a practicing muslim.

Since it appears that you are unfamiliar with al-Wāqidī, Ibn Sa’d, al-Tabarī, and Ibn Ishaq , you are either ignorant of the q’ran, or not a practicing muslim, or neither familiar with muslim theology, or the q’ran.

In the offchance that you are a Friday muslim, I’ll just point out that all six pillars of the q’ran are contradicted by, and refuted by the q’ran, in the same manner as I showed that the q’ran teaches polytheism.

I was using the criteria of the q’ran for determining if something is of the One True God, to demonstrate that the q’ran is, by its own admission and criteria, a thing not from the One True God.

jonathon

I also don’t understand what you mean in this post and the one before ? please explain in detail and provide some examples

 

[planten]

** jonathon, you are referring to tabari and ibne sa’ad etc. What is troubling you? You have not said even a word about that.**