Bible - Qur'an Comparison

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Sister_Amy said:
Early books? Recalls that Muslims believe that Judaism is also “off base.” The Qur’an says it confirms and corrects what came before it, and passes over what was unnecessary. It talks about Jewish scribes changing words from their proper places.
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The Koran never claims to correct what came before it since it desperately requires the preservation of the former revelations. Please stop distorting certain Koran verses that blame some Jews (not necessarily religious leaders!) for making verbal alterations for the sake of confronting Mohammad’s allegations! The claim that Jewish authorities distorted and falsified the original Torah is a later invention in Islam that has turned into a traditional dogma although not supported by the Koran.
Sister_Amy said:
There are any number of reasons that mistakes could have crept into the Bible. From an ancient Jewish scribe, mind you–so long ago that the mistake might have gone unnoticed. And Muslims believe that while revelation was sent before the Qur’an, it wasn’t preserved. So why the differences?
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No Koran verse even implies that Koran is the only revelation to be preserved! Actually, the reason for the Koran’s preservation by Allah is nothing more than its divine origin:

12: 9 . Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.

The only reason you believe that the Bible cannot have been preserved accurately is the discrepancies between the major tenets taught by the Koran and the Bible. As a convert to Christianity from Islam, I believe that the Koran is the distorted version of the Bible. Finally, excellent textual preservation does not go further than endorsing the historic reliability of the Islamic scripture. Thus, it does not prove its so-called divine origin!
Sister_Amy said:
The answer is that God knows what happened. How many sons of Noah went on the ark, for example. There is an important lesson in that story–that even Noah’s son, though Noah wanted him to be on the ark, with the believer, he wasn’t a believer. And God tells Noah that his son is not of his family because of his disbelief. It teaches a number of things, like a person isn’t righteous because of family ties, that sometimes a person’s son will reject the true religion and that it is an enormity for that to happen, but that we need to trust God anyway.
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What happened to the wife of Noah’s son if her husband died in the flood??? How many sons did Noah have before the flood? No answer in the Koran! I personally believe that it was definitely Mohammad who made his Allah kill one of Noah’s sons in the flood since such a modification in the narrative was going to perfectly fit his political agenda. Mohammad’s scribes did not only copy stories from the Bible, but they also tampered with them in order to adapt history to modern developments. The same Mohammad was also inspired by his wives’ plot against him to suddenly remember that Lot’s and Noah’s wife were betrayers. 😃

Peace,
Angelos N.B.
 
Angelos said:
The Koran never claims to correct what came before it since it desperately requires the preservation of the former revelations. Please stop distorting certain Koran verses that blame some Jews (not necessarily religious leaders!) for making verbal alterations for the sake of confronting Mohammad’s allegations! The claim that Jewish authorities distorted and falsified the original Torah is a later invention in Islam that has turned into a traditional dogma although not supported by the Koran.

No Koran verse even implies that Koran is the only revelation to be preserved! Actually, the reason for the Koran’s preservation by Allah is nothing more than its divine origin:

12: 9 . Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.

The only reason you believe that the Bible cannot have been preserved accurately is the discrepancies between the major tenets taught by the Koran and the Bible. As a convert to Christianity from Islam, I believe that the Koran is the distorted version of the Bible. Finally, excellent textual preservation does not go further than endorsing the historic reliability of the Islamic scripture. Thus, it does not prove its so-called divine origin!

What happened to the wife of Noah’s son if her husband died in the flood??? How many sons did Noah have before the flood? No answer in the Koran! I personally believe that it was definitely Mohammad who made his Allah kill one of Noah’s sons in the flood since such a modification in the narrative was going to perfectly fit his political agenda. Mohammad’s scribes did not only copy stories from the Bible, but they also tampered with them in order to adapt history to modern developments. The same Mohammad was also inspired by his wives’ plot against him to suddenly remember that Lot’s and Noah’s wife were betrayers. 😃

Peace,
Angelos N.B.
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👍 Good to have you back Angelos!

Vickie
 
Yes, be aware of posters like Booklover and Angelos who want to mislead people by lying about Islam, distorting the truth, misrepresenting the Qur’an. Yawn.

From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -

Angelos–you said that the Qur’an doesn’t say something which it does say. Please read Surat Al-Bayyinah. If you’re such an expert on the Qur’an you can even go read it in Arabic.
The only reason you believe that the Bible cannot have been preserved accurately is the discrepancies between the major tenets taught by the Koran and the Bible.
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Really? Or was that the only reason that YOU believed that Bible wasn’t “preserved accurately?” And then someone convinced you otherwise? The reason I don’t believe that “the Bible cannot have been preserved accurately” is because the Qur’an SAYS SO! In fact, a large portion of the Bible doesn’t concern me whether it was preserved accurately or not. In all seriousness, I don’t care what Paul had to say about Christ, so the very fact that his letters were canonized is in my opinion corruption of revelation from God–revelation sent to Jesus, not Paul.
As a convert to Christianity from Islam, I believe that the Koran is the distorted version of the Bible.
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As a convert to Islam from christianity (what, were you trying to scare me with that?) I believe that the Qur’an is the FINAL and PRESERVED message from God. As a convert to Islam, I also believe that the Bible is even a text which has been revealed by God. I believe that God revealed to Abraham, to Moses, to David, to Jesus, and to Muhammad. But I don’t believe that the Bible contains all, only, or exclusively any of that revelation (prior to Muhammad). I believe it contains truth mixed with falsehood.
Finally, excellent textual preservation does not go further than endorsing the historic reliability of the Islamic scripture. Thus, it does not prove its so-called divine origin!
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Indeed. It was long after I was convinced of the divine origin that I ever bothered to even look at textual preservation–it never concerned me until I was able to compare the excellent textual preservation of the Qur’an, to the poor textual preservation of the NT in particular. But by then I already believed that the Qur’an was of divine origin. It did not take textual preservation to prove it to me–in fact, it took nothing less than a miracle. 👍
 
Sister_Amy said:
Yes, be aware of posters like Booklover and Angelos who want to mislead people by lying about Islam, distorting the truth, misrepresenting the Qur’an. Yawn.

From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -

Angelos–you said that the Qur’an doesn’t say something which it does say. Please read Surat Al-Bayyinah. If you’re such an expert on the Qur’an you can even go read it in Arabic.
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Are you an expert on the Koran to read it in its original language? 😃

I previously posted a long analysis of the quotations you selected from the Koran while struggling to prove the conventional distortion theory. I shall once more ask you to read that response of mine more carefully to see with your own eyes how those* few *verses you select fail to support the Islamic assertions about the reliability of the Bible.

The verses you posted above do not accuse Christians for distorting the Book they have, but only hiding some verses in it from Muslims while discussing Mohammad’s supposed revelation and prophetic ministry! Hiding is different from falsifying: Muslims hide and misinterpret many verses that endorse the current Bible in their Koran, yet we cannot claim that they destroy the original Koran and replace it with another. 😉

Again, in the first verse you quoted, Christians are admonished for forgetting some part of the message that was sent them! Forgetting does not entail any written/permanent/general distortion of the text in question. It denotes one’s deliberate ignorance of some truth within the text. So please show me better verses from your Koran next time so as to convince everyone that the Koran regards the former revelations fake, the original copies of which are lost and replaced with new ones.
Do not worry, I shall be waiting for that evidence no matter how long it may take. 😃

While looking for evidence from Koran, please find time to read the following verses:

10: 64 There is no changing the Words of Allah - that is the Supreme Triumph. (This promise - according to your comments, is broken!)

2: 121. Those unto whom We have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whoso disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the losers.
(Jews and Christians reading the Scripture that was given them!)

10: 94. And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
(Allah trusts the people of the Book so much that He asks Mohammad to consult them for help! Mohammad is commanded to believe in whatever the people of the Book teach him! )
 
Sister_Amy said:
Really? Or was that the only reason that YOU believed that Bible wasn’t “preserved accurately?” And then someone convinced you otherwise? The reason I don’t believe that “the Bible cannot have been preserved accurately” is because the Qur’an SAYS SO! In fact, a large portion of the Bible doesn’t concern me whether it was preserved accurately or not. In all seriousness, I don’t care what Paul had to say about Christ, so the very fact that his letters were canonized is in my opinion corruption of revelation from God–revelation sent to Jesus, not Paul.
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Where is Paul in the Koran? :rolleyes:

Your Scripture is not even sufficient to provide you people with data about the origins of Christianity! This is why you are absolutely burdened with the task of making up stories through mere fantasies and lies. Your fallacious arguments eventually turn Paul into an “almighty” deity that manages to distort the so-called religion of Allah despite the expected resistance of all the apostles. Allah’s teachings die, but Paul’s teachings survive! DO you accept that Paul is equal to Allah then? :eek:
Sister_Amy said:
As a convert to Islam from christianity (what, were you trying to scare me with that?) I believe that the Qur’an is the FINAL and PRESERVED message from God. As a convert to Islam, I also believe that the Bible is even a text which has been revealed by God. I believe that God revealed to Abraham, to Moses, to David, to Jesus, and to Muhammad. But I don’t believe that the Bible contains all, only, or exclusively any of that revelation (prior to Muhammad). I believe it contains truth mixed with falsehood.
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I do not care the least about what you believe or how you believe dear sister! You Muslims always make similar statements about the Bible, what if I once present my view of the Koran? Will you punish me for doing that?

I also believe that the Koran naturally contains truth mixed with falsehood. The truth comes from the Bible - the narratives Mohammad’s scribes sometimes copied word by word - whereas the falsehood comes from the erroneous teachings of your prophet.
Sister_Amy said:
Indeed. It was long after I was convinced of the divine origin that I ever bothered to even look at textual preservation–it never concerned me until I was able to compare the excellent textual preservation of the Qur’an, to the poor textual preservation of the NT in particular. But by then I already believed that the Qur’an was of divine origin. It did not take textual preservation to prove it to me–in fact, it took nothing less than a miracle. 👍
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The poor textual preservation of the NT? You must be kidding! What you Muslims supposedly managed to preserve is nothing but the false copy of the Bible! You are right: wonderful textual preservation of the Koran is equal to the preservation of certain apocryphal Gospels and Jewish fables that had been written centuries after the OT and NT books.

Please do me a favour: show me the original Koran, the one written down in the first Khalif’s period. If you cannot do that, I shall definitely disagree with you about the so-called preservation of the Islamic Scripture. Good luck with your new faith 😉

Peace,
Angelos N.B.
 
tomshaikh said:
Salaam & Hello

There is NO COMPARISON between BIBLE & QURAN KAREEM. Both are from Allah/God came on Messenger/Prophet. Bible is not in its original form whereas Quran Kareem is in its original form. Bible safe-ness was not confirmed by Allah/God whereas Allah/God take responsibility for Quran Kareem & Kaabah(House of Allah/God). Thats all i wanna say about Bible and Quran Kareem Comparison. 🙂
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You say it because your Holy Book says it, or because you have come to that knowledge from experience also?:confused:
 
Angelos said:
Where is Paul in the Koran? :rolleyes:

Your Scripture is not even sufficient to provide you people with data about the origins of Christianity! This is why you are absolutely burdened with the task of making up stories through mere fantasies and lies. Your fallacious arguments eventually turn Paul into an “almighty” deity that manages to distort the so-called religion of Allah despite the expected resistance of all the apostles. Allah’s teachings die, but Paul’s teachings survive! DO you accept that Paul is equal to Allah then? :eek:

I do not care the least about what you believe or how you believe dear sister! You Muslims always make similar statements about the Bible, what if I once present my view of the Koran? Will you punish me for doing that?

I also believe that the Koran naturally contains truth mixed with falsehood. The truth comes from the Bible - the narratives Mohammad’s scribes sometimes copied word by word - whereas the falsehood comes from the erroneous teachings of your prophet.

The poor textual preservation of the NT? You must be kidding! What you Muslims supposedly managed to preserve is nothing but the false copy of the Bible! You are right: wonderful textual preservation of the Koran is equal to the preservation of certain apocryphal Gospels and Jewish fables that had been written centuries after the OT and NT books.

Please do me a favour: show me the original Koran, the one written down in the first Khalif’s period. If you cannot do that, I shall definitely disagree with you about the so-called preservation of the Islamic Scripture. Good luck with your new faith 😉

Peace,
Angelos N.B.
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👍 👍 👍

Vickie
 
Lapell said:
You say it because your Holy Book says it, or because you have come to that knowledge from experience also?:confused:
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He says and believes it that way only because he was taught to do so.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.
 
Sister_Amy said:
This is actually really impressive. First of all, you are saying that Muhammad knew the OT, and the NT, and some gnostic gospels, and Jewish legends!!! That’s pretty impressive! Marvelously so. I wonder how you can make this claim at all though, considering that Muhammad was illiterate and none of those texts even existed in Arabic!
Once again let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a history book. People derive lessons form Biblical stories.
The book is supposed to be for guidance, right? Not history lessons–so sometimes details aren’t the point.
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Sister Amy, I don’t know that it was meant that Muhammad knew the whole of the OT and the whole of the NT… But it appears to be quite clear that he learned some of both, at least from some people’s mouth!
Oral tradition preceeded the written one in both cases, and it wasn’t meant to be just read, mind you!
 
Lapell said:
You say it because your Holy Book says it, or because you have come to that knowledge from experience also?:confused:
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I have a reason to put it into a question here, Angelos. I don’t mind at all sounding naive in doing so. Even when I actually am. I still think this question ought to be asked…
 
Angelos said:
I also believe that the Koran naturally contains truth mixed with falsehood. The truth comes from the Bible
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“Truth mixed with falsehood”… It reminds me of a way some people woult consult the Bible by chosing a certain page, a certain column, with the eyes closed, and they would put a finger on one verse, and to them this would be God’s answer to them… Imagine if they fall on a passage saying “You snakes!”… Yikes!
Now, you have to read the phrase in the context, and who is the one speaking. For instance, if you take the narrative of Jesus’ Temptation in the desert, in a certain phrase is it the devil who speaks? Or Jesus? The devil’s words are not the words of God, but in one instance he quotes a true Word of God from Psalm 91 and takes it out of context. What the passage reveals here is that even the devil can use a passage from the Word of God, an authentic one, and twist its meaning to try to deceive the people.
So it shows how the devil works, it is a truth revealed so that the believers be put on guard against the devil’s deceptions.
 
Angelos… a little Islam101 for you here.

The Qur’an mentions, and Muslims believe in five (5) different revelations. In chronological order listed with associated Messenger, they are:
  1. Sufuf - Scrolls (Abraham)
  2. Tawurat - Torah (Moses)
  3. Zabuur - Psalms (David)
  4. Injeel - Gospel (Jesus)
  5. Qur’an (Muhammad)
Do you see “Bible” on that list? Right. It’s not there!

You’ve missed the entire point of what a corrupted revelation means, because you think that Muslims believe the Bible was revealed. Clearly, that’s not the case.
 
Lapell said:
Sister Amy, I don’t know that it was meant that Muhammad knew the whole of the OT and the whole of the NT… But it appears to be quite clear that he learned some of both, at least from some people’s mouth!
Oral tradition preceeded the written one in both cases, and it wasn’t meant to be just read, mind you!
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The Jewish scriptures did not exist in the Arabic language. I’m not sure who you think was teaching Muhammad these things, it simply doesn’t make sense.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Angelos… a little Islam101 for you here.

The Qur’an mentions, and Muslims believe in five (5) different revelations. In chronological order listed with associated Messenger, they are:
  1. Sufuf - Scrolls (Abraham)
  2. Tawurat - Torah (Moses)
  3. Zabuur - Psalms (David)
  4. Injeel - Gospel (Jesus)
  5. Qur’an (Muhammad)
Do you see “Bible” on that list? Right. It’s not there!

You’ve missed the entire point of what a corrupted revelation means, because you think that Muslims believe the Bible was revealed. Clearly, that’s not the case.
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The word **Bible **is derived from the Greek word Biblio, which means book! Saying that the Bible was not revealed is like saying “The Koran did not come from Allah, but the verses and chapters in it did” :rotfl:

Since the Koran verses confirms all the books Jews/Christians have and read at that time - with no specific name of a section or book - under the collective term “Scripture”, your argument fails again. 😉

Further, Jews do not call their Scripture Tawurat although the Koran refers to the Torah (Jewish Scripture) whenever it uses the word Tawurat! Thus, you cannot say that Tawurat and Torah are not the same book because of the application of two different names 😉

Peace,

Angelos N.B.
 
Angelos said:
The word **Bible **is derived from the Greek word Biblio, which means book! Saying that the Bible was not revealed is like saying “The Koran did not come from Allah, but the verses and chapters in it did.”
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So now I know–this is your misunderstanding. Please review my previous post and the list of revelations in which Muslims believe.

What is revelation? When God “reveals” to a messenger, the revelation is the message. God revealed the Qur’an to Muhammad. God revealed the Gospel to Jesus. God revealed the Torah to Moses. This is what the Qur’an says. The “People of the Book” meaning Jews and Christians denotes people who received some revelation–some scripture. It can’t possibly mean the Bible because Jews of course do not accept the whole Bible of Christians, do they? Only the Tanakh.
Since the Koran verses confirms all the books Jews/Christians have and read at that time - with no specific name of a section or book - under the collective term “Scripture”, your argument fails again.
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Unfortunately this is where your misunderstanding does you in. The Qur’an doesn’t confirm all books Jews/Christians have and read at the time. It doesn’t. By using the word Al-Kitaab the implication is written scripture–but if we were to believe you, that would include all the gnostic gospels and every last page of heretical literature in existence as being revealed. Nobody would ever admit to that, and really, it’s silly. Al-Kitaab refers to revelation which has come from God. In fact, the Qur’an is referred to as Al-Kitaab.
Further, Jews do not call their Scripture Tawurat although the Koran refers to the Torah (Jewish Scripture) whenever it uses the word Tawurat! Thus, you cannot say that Tawurat and Torah are not the same book because of the application of two different names.
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Are you joking? I mean, do I seriously need to answer this claim?
 
Sister_Amy said:
The Jewish scriptures did not exist in the Arabic language. I’m not sure who you think was teaching Muhammad these things, it simply doesn’t make sense.
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Many Jews existed in Arabia though! They spoke Arabic while communicating with Mohammad and the others. It is highly probable that some of them helped Mohammad understand what the Torah says, functioning as translators. Additionally, Mohammad travelled a lot and met people who could speak Arabic as well as Greek.

On the other hand, I agree that Mohammad or the ones teaching him did not have direct access to the Bible. If that had been the case, some of the current narratives in the Koran would not be so erroneous as they are today.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.
 
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