Bible study Revelation All are welcome

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Mystery Babylon is a CITY (Re.18:10, Re.18:16, Re.18:18-19 below). It is the CITY “where also our Lord was crucified” (Re.11:8, Heb.13:12 below).

The mystery of Babylon the great is that it is the holy city Jerusalem which will play a dual role once the false prophet sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God (2 Thess.2:4 below).

The holy city Jerusalem is the pleasant land (Dan.8:9 below); it is the faithful city which has become an harlot (Isa.1:21 below),

There is a curse on Jerusalem in this earth; in the new earth there will be no more curse (Re.22:3 below). Because there is a curse (Re.22:3 below), Jerusalem will play a dual role - one: the holy city Jerusalem, and, secondly, that great city Babylon (Re.18:10).

Also note Revelation 21:10, below, that in the new earth the holy city Jerusalem’s name is complete, “that great city, the holy Jerusalem”.

Revelation17:9 states that the seven heads (Re.17:3) on the scarlet colored beast are seven mountain on which the woman sits. The seven continents of the earth are the seven mountains. In the beginning, the waters of the earth covered the mountains (Ps.104:6 below). Today we live upon that portion of the mountains protruding from the waters.

The many waters Babylon sits upon represents peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues (Re.17:15). Therefore, Babylon’s power will be worldwide and will involve all of its people.

The beast of Revelation 13:11 (the false prophet) is seen as the scarlet colored beast once his sits in that great city Babylon.

The false prophet worships a god his fathers know not (Dan.11:38), a god of forces, that great city Babylon, and honors her with riches (Re.17:4, Re.18:16). It seems to me that the false prophet will come out of Israel.

The horns/kings on the scarlet colored beast’s head (Re.17:16-18) play their role upon the world scene as they come against the great city Babylon and fight the battle of Armageddon.

Re.11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Eqypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED (Heb.13:12 below).

Heb.13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, SUFFERED WITHOUT (outside) THE GATE (Re.11:8 above).

2 Thess.2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth HIMSELF above ALL that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God (Re.11:1), SHEWING HIMSELF that he is God (Dan.11:36-37).

Dan.8:9 And out of one of them (the fourth kingdom - Dan.7:7, Dan.7:23) came forth a little horn (Dan.7:8), which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land (Isa.1:21 below).

Isa.1:21 How is the faithful CITY become an harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. (Re.18:2, 10, 16, 18-19 below)

Re.22:3 And THERE SHALL BE NO MORE CURSE (Isa.1:21, Re.11:8 above): but the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (the Savior) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Re.21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Ps.104:6 Thou coveredst it (the earth) with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains (Re.17:9).

Mystery Babylon, a CITY

Re.18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Re.18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Re.18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Re.18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city!

Re.18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy
 
Because of the language used it’s easy to assume a black and white view. It seems on the surface that good and evil will be easily distinguished. One thing to consider is that the language used can also express the origins of the events which were experienced by the first two people and describe the judgement and eviction that happened.

Imagine how sublimely dispersed that archetypical experience is amongst billions.

As buried in the human race as it is in it’s history is the original sin.
 
Benadam said:
Because of the language used it’s easy to assume a black and white view. It seems on the surface that good and evil will be easily distinguished. One thing to consider is that the language used can also express the origins of the events which were experienced by the first two people and describe the judgement and eviction that happened.

Imagine how sublimely dispersed that archetypical experience is amongst billions.

As buried in the human race as it is in it’s history is the original sin.
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what is this responding to?
 
spauline said:
what is this responding to?
Click to expand...
I’m sorry, I’m just making a general statement to point out a quality of the revelation that isn’t mentioned much.

Most Catholics are acusstomed to the view it offers of the Mass. So the characteristic of being able to describe the moment as it proceeds is familiar.

I’m pointing out that the symbols of the text are archetypical. That the prophetic spirit reveals the past as well as the future. That the hidden origin of things as well as their end is revealed ,in the hope to inspire some to look in that direction.

I think the Holy Spirit revealed the future in the measure man was at the beginning and reveals the past in the measure the end approaches.

An example would JPII’s Theology of the Body.
 
**Chapter 18
1
After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth became illumined by his splendor.
2
He cried out in a mighty voice: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great. She has become a haunt for demons. She is a cage for every unclean spirit, a cage for every unclean bird, (a cage for every unclean) and disgusting (beast).
3
For all the nations have drunk the wine of her licentious passion. The kings of the earth had intercourse with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her drive for luxury.”
4
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Depart from her, my people, so as not to take part in her sins and receive a share in her plagues,
5
for her sins are piled up to the sky, and God remembers her crimes.
6
Pay her back as she has paid others. Pay her back double for her deeds. Into her cup pour double what she poured.
7
To the measure of her boasting and wantonness repay her in torment and grief; for she said to herself, ‘I sit enthroned as queen; I am no widow, and I will never know grief.’
8
Therefore, her plagues will come in one day, pestilence, grief, and famine; she will be consumed by fire. For mighty is the Lord God who judges her.”
9
The kings of the earth who had intercourse with her in their wantonness will weep and mourn over her when they see the smoke of her pyre.
10
They will keep their distance for fear of the torment inflicted on her, and they will say: “Alas, alas, great city, Babylon, mighty city. In one hour your judgment has come.”
11
The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn for her, because there will be no more markets for their cargo:
12
their cargo of gold, silver, precious stones, and pearls; fine linen, purple silk, and scarlet cloth; fragrant wood of every kind, all articles of ivory and all articles of the most expensive wood, bronze, iron, and marble;
13
cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, and frankincense; wine, olive oil, fine flour, and wheat; cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human beings.
14
“The fruit you craved has left you. All your luxury and splendor are gone, never again will one find them.”
15
The merchants who deal in these goods, who grew rich from her, will keep their distance for fear of the torment inflicted on her. Weeping and mourning,
16
they cry out: “Alas, alas, great city, wearing fine linen, purple and scarlet, adorned (in) gold, precious stones, and pearls.
17
In one hour this great wealth has been ruined.” Every captain of a ship, every traveler at sea, sailors, and seafaring merchants stood at a distance
18
and cried out when they saw the smoke of her pyre, “What city could compare with the great city?”
19
They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning: “Alas, alas, great city, in which all who had ships at sea grew rich from her wealth. In one hour she has been ruined.
20
Rejoice over her, heaven, you holy ones, apostles, and prophets. For God has judged your case against her.”
21
A mighty angel picked up a stone like a huge millstone and threw it into the sea and said: “With such force will Babylon the great city be thrown down, and will never be found again.
22
No melodies of harpists and musicians, flutists and trumpeters, will ever be heard in you again. No craftsmen in any trade will ever be found in you again. No sound of the millstone will ever be heard in you again.
23
No light from a lamp will ever be seen in you again. No voices of bride and groom will ever be heard in you again. Because your merchants were the great ones of the world, all nations were led astray by your magic potion.
24
In her was found the blood of prophets and holy ones and all who have been slain on the earth.” **
 
One of the most interesting parts about this passage I find is that we are told to rejoice over the destruction of babylon
 assumedly the destruction of great sinful kingdoms usually entails a massive loss of life which even if deserved is not commonly something that a person rejoices over, although I wonder if perhaps what it means is now that we should rejoice over the suffering of the wicked as we are over our own deliverance from them?

All earthly kingdoms inevitably come to an end someday
 there is not a single political entity existent today that was around when this book was written with the exception of the kingdom of God, and there is no political entity from that time that still exists today with the exception of this kingdom, every great nation has been overthrown and replaced in the barbaric arbitrariness of history that wipes away civilizations like the morning dew, and there is no earthly power that ever lasts very long at all.

The question for our sakes is whether we should join ourselves with the many powers of the world that shall fade away in little time, or if our true allegiance should be to the eternal power that never ebbs.

Verses of potential interest:

The fall of Babylon:

Jeremiah 50:39 "Therefore wild beasts shall dwell with hyenas in Babylon, and ostriches shall dwell in her; she shall be peopled no more for ever, nor inhabited for all generations.

All nations have drunk the cup:

Jeremiah 25:15-17 Thus the Lord, the God of Israel said to me: “Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword which I am sending among them” So I took the cup from the Lord’s hand, and made all the nations to whom the Lord sent me drink it:

Flee from Babylon:

Jeremiah 50:8 "Flee from the midst of Babylon, and go out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as he-goats before the flock.

her sins heaped high as heaven:

Jermiah 51:9 We would have healed Babylon, but she was not healed. Forsake her, and let us go each to his own country; for her judgment has reached up to heaven and has been lifted up even to the skies.

Render to her as she has rendered:

Psalms 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, you devestator! Happy shall he be who requites you with what you have done to us!

‘I am no widow’:

Isaiah 47:8-9 Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures, who sit securely, who say in your heart, “I am, and there is no one besides me; I shall not sit as a widow or know the loss of children”: These two things shal lcome to you in a moment, in one day; the loss of children and widowhood shal lcome upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and the great power of your enchantments.

All the kings of the earth will weap and wail:

Ezekiel 26:16-17 Then all the princes of the sea will step down from their thrones, and remove their robes, and strip off their embroidered garments; they will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit upon the ground and tremble every moment, and be appalled at you. And they will raise a lamentation over you, and say to you, 'How you have vanished from the seas, O city renowned, that was might on the sea, you and your inhabitants, who imposed your terror on all the mainland!

The merchants of the earth will mourn:

Ezekiel 27:36 The merchants among the peoples hiss at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more for ever.’"

cargo:

Ezekiel 27:12-13 "Tarshish travelled with you because of your great wealth of every kind; silver, iron, tin, and lead they exchanged for your wares. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech traded with you; they exchanged the persons of men and vessels of bronze for your merchandise.

Weeping merchants:

Ezekiel 27:31 they make themselves bald for you, and gird themselves with sackcloth, and they weep over you in bitterness of soul, with bitter mourning.

In one hour you are laid waste:

Ezekiel 27:26-34 Your rowers have brought you out into the high seas. The east wind has wrecked you in the heart of the seas. Your riches, your wares, your merchandise, and all your men of war who are in you, with all your company that is in your midst, sink into the heart of the seas on the day of your ruin. At the sound of the cry of your pilots the countryside shakes, and down from their ships come all that handle the oar. The mariners and all the pilots of the sea stand on the shore and wail aloud over you, and cry bitterly. They cast dust on their heads and wallow in ashes; they make themselves bald for you, and gird themselves with sackcloth, and they weep over you in bitterness of soul, with bitter mourning. In their wailing they raise a lamentation for you, and lament over you: 'Who was ever destroyed like Tyre in the midst of the sea? When your wares cam from the seas, you satisfied many peoples; with your abundant wealth and merchandise you enriched the kings of the earth. Now you are wrecked by the seas, in the depths of the waters; your merchandise and all your crew have sunk with you.

Rejoice over her O heaven:

Jeremiah 51:48 Then the heavens and the earth, and all that is in them, shall sing for joy over Babylon; for the destroyers shal lcome against them out of the north, says the Lord.

Took up a millstone and threw it:

Jeremiah 51:63-64 When you finish reading this book, bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of the Euphrates, and say, ‘Thus shall Babylon sink, to rise no more, because of the evil that I am bringing upon her.’ Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.

The sound of the harp will not be heard any more:

Ezekiel 26:13 And I will stop the music of your songs, and the sound of your lyres shall be heard no more.

the voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall not be heard any more:

Jeremiah 25:10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.

In her was found the blood of the saints:

Jermiah 51:49 Babylon must fall for the slain of Israel, as for Babylon have fallen the slain of all the earth.
 
D M

Don’t some historians teach that this could be refering to Rome?
 
Odell said:
D M

Don’t some historians teach that this could be refering to Rome?
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Yes, ‘Babylon’ is used as a code-word for Rome in the book of revelations and in the writings of the apostles is what I think you are right that many historians, theologians and other scholars have believed.

In fact the first letter of Peter uses this explicitly in its conclusion:

1 Peter 5:12-14 By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God; stand fast in it. She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark. Greet one another with the kiss of love. Peace to all of you that are in Christ.

(Babylon of the Chaldees had not existed for at least a few centuries by this point, so Peter is perhaps not referring to a person in the Middle East)

The words of the book of revelations though are very often mirrored, and even sometimes directly quoting what the prophets wrote about Babylon (that is the city of Marduk, Babylon), which is why those other verses could be interesting to read.

I think that one can take the prophetic scriptures and use ‘Babylon’ as an archetype for the earthly kingdoms of all generations, and this seems to be what the apostles perhaps did.

I mentioned it before, but the city of Rome itself was built on seven hills on the river Tiber, the most famous of such hills being of course the Capitoline hill upon which the great temple to Jupiter (as well as two other deities) was constructed. And in the previous chapter we heard that the woman sat upon seven heads which were seven hills, and many interpreted this as a direct reference to the city of Rome.

Martin Luther as well as many chiliastic protestants believed themselves justified in their interpretation that the papacy was the antichrist which they would use such scriptural references as evidence. The present-day traditionalist movement has also come to think that the papacy is becoming corrupted following the second vatican council and that a future pope will be the antichrist, although I don’t know if they use these verses or not. There are also some number of catholics who in times past have thought that a future pope will be the antichrist.

It also fits with the thought about Nero Caesar being the one to whom 666 referred to and the beast who would destroy the law and the prophets
 although the only thing about this interpretation is that what I’ve heard by theologians who explain this is that they say a person who knew hebrew would instinctively have known the numeric value of each letter and have been able to deduce this in their own time, which is perhaps true, but if it were why is that it was not until centuries later that this interpretation of Nero Caesar being ‘666’ entered the church’s knowledge of this verse?

St Irenaeus for example writing in the 2nd century claimed the only possiblities he could come up with were the names: Euanthas, Teitan and Lateinos, and he speculated that the meaning of the verse would be revealed at a later point. If he did not know that it could have meant Nero Caesar then, then one may question the thought put together by theologians that people at the time of the book’s writing would have understood Nero to be the one it referred to unless somehow that knowledge was lost or so obscure such that it should not have ever become known to Irenaeus. I don’t know

 
At the Seventh (and final) Plague a great earthquake (Re.16:17-18 below) divides the great CITY Babylon into three parts; the cities of the nations fall, and great Babylon comes into remembrance before God to give her the fierceness of His wrath (Re.16:19 below).

At the Sixth SEAL (an event occurring prior to PLAGUE events) there will be a great earthquake (Re.6:12), which will move every mountain (continent – Ps.104:6 below) and island out of their places (Re.6:14); an earthquake so catastrophic that it will cause the continents and islands to begin to drift.

At the Seventh PLAGUE (Re.16:17 below), the cities of the nations will fall (Re.16:19 below). Every island will be gone and every mountain (continent - Ps.104:6 below) will be no more (Re.16:20 below) as the continents collide (at the fall of Babylon - Jer.50:46 below), to come together as one landmass.

The ten horns will hate the whore (Babylon), and God will put in their hearts to fulfill his will; in one day Babylon will be utterly destroyed (Re.17:16-17, Re.18:8-9, Re.18:18 below).

The ten horns “kingship” will be brief; ONE HOUR (Re.17:12 below), just prior to the battle of Armageddon.

Re.16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Re.16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

Re.1619 And the great city (Babylon - Re.17:18, Re.18:10, Re.18:;16, Re.18:18 below, Re.11:8, Isa.1:21) was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL (Jer.50:46 below): and great Babylon CAME IN REMEMBRANCE before God (Re.18:5 below), TO GIVE unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Re.16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found (Ps.104.6 below).

Re.16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Ps.104:6 Thou coveredst it (the earth) with the deep as [with] a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Jer.50:46 At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations (Re.16:18-20 above).

Re.17:12 And the TEN HORNS which thou sawest are TEN KINGS, which have received no kingdom (Re.17:17 below) as yet; but receive power as kings ONE HOUR WITH the (scarlet coloured) beast.

Re.17:16 And the TEN HORNS (Re.17:12 above) which thou sawest upon the (scarlet coloured) beast, THESE SHALL HATE THE WHORE (Babylon - Re.17:1, Re.17:5), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire (Re.18:8-9 below).

Re.17:17 For God hath put in their hearts (the ten horns) to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom (Re.17:12 above) unto the (scarlet coloured) beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Re.17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great CITY (Babylon), which reigneth over the kings of the earth (Re.18:9 below).

Re.18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God HATH REMEMBERED her iniquities (Re.16:19 above).

Re.18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in ONE DAY (Jer.50:30 below), death, and mourning, and famine; and SHE SHALL BE UTTERLY BURNED WITH FIRE (Re.17:16 above): for strong is the Lord God who JUDGETH her (Jer.50:15).

Re.18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her (Re.18:3), shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning (Re.17:16, Re.18:8 above, Re.19:3),

Re.18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great CITY Babylon, that mighty city (Re.17:18 above)! for IN ONE HOUR (Re.18:17 below) IS THY JUDGMENT COME (Jer.50:15).

Re.18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY (Re.18:21, Re.11:8, Isa.1:21), that was clothed in FINE LINEN, AND PURPLE, AND SCARLET, AND DECKED WITH GOLD, AND PRECIOUS STONES, AND PEARLS (Re.17:4, Dan.11:38)!

Re.18:17 For in ONE HOUR (Re.18:10 above, Re.18:19 below) so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off.

Re.18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning (Re.17:16, Re.18:8-9 above), saying, What CITY is like unto this GREAT CITY (Re.18:16 above)!

Re.18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great CITY (Re.17:18, Re.18:18 above), wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in ONE HOUR is she made desolate (Re.18:10, Re.18:17 above).

Jer.50:30 Therefore shall her young men fall in the streets, and all her men of war shall be cut off in that DAY (Re.18:8 above), saith the Lord.

Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy
 
**Chapter 19
1
After this I heard what sounded like the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying: “Alleluia! Salvation, glory, and might belong to our God,
2
for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her harlotry. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
3
They said a second time: “Alleluia! Smoke will rise from her forever and ever.”
4
The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen. Alleluia.”
5
A voice coming from the throne said: “Praise our God, all you his servants, (and) you who revere him, small and great.”
6
Then I heard something like the sound of a great multitude or the sound of rushing water or mighty peals of thunder, as they said: “Alleluia! The Lord has established his reign, (our) God, the almighty.
7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready.
8
She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment.” (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.)
9
Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These words are true; they come from God.”
10
I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers who bear witness to Jesus. Worship God. Witness to Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
11
Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) “Faithful and True.” He judges and wages war in righteousness.
12
His eyes were (like) a fiery flame, and on his head were many diadems. He had a name inscribed that no one knows except himself.
13
He wore a cloak that had been dipped in blood, and his name was called the Word of God.
14
The armies of heaven followed him, mounted on white horses and wearing clean white linen.
15
Out of his mouth came a sharp sword to strike the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod, and he himself will tread out in the wine press the wine of the fury and wrath of God the almighty.
16
He has a name written on his cloak and on his thigh, “King of kings and Lord of lords.”
17
Then I saw an angel standing on the sun. He cried out (in) a loud voice to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come here. Gather for God’s great feast,
18
to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of military officers, and the flesh of warriors, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of all, free and slave, small and great.”
19
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to fight against the one riding the horse and against his army.
20
The beast was caught and with it the false prophet who had performed in its sight the signs by which he led astray those who had accepted the mark of the beast and those who had worshiped its image. The two were thrown alive into the fiery pool burning with sulfur.
21
The rest were killed by the sword that came out of the mouth of the one riding the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. **
 
Once again I love the imagery, especially the part about the birds of the air being called to start munching
 have you ever seen Alfred Hitchcock’s film The Birds?

I wonder what the meaning is of the phrase he has many names inscribed which no one knows but himself?

The angel tells John not to worship him, because this is idolatry. As St Augustine wrote, not even the angels want us to worship them as gods, but rather they wish us to worship the One True God along with them from which their and our eternal felicity derives.

As great as the evil of this world is, it does not compare with the power of God, and even the great harlot and the false prophet shall fall before Him.

The sword that issues from His mouth is the Word of God, which He sends into the world to set the world on fire (metaphorically). It has been said that the mightiest weapon is not something used by the hands or wielded by soldiers, but that the mightiest weapons of all is the human tongue when it makes speech. Or the old saying ‘the pen is mightier then the sword’ goes along the same way.

The Lord has smitten the earth with His words, and provoked great hatred against Himself, and by this hatred provoked has proven the world for the evil place that it really is. He has testified truly about the evil works of humanity for what they really are, and He did not need any swords or gold to nevertheless overthrow and destroy every last enemy that shall ever come before Him.

He will rod the world with a rod of iron, not in the sort of mean way that a tyrant rules, but in an absolute way which is coupled with infinite justice. Those who oppose Him will be scattered and shall be consumed in their evil works, while those who repent and believe in Him shall rejoice with Him forever.

(repeat this if you would choose to)

Lord, bring us all, those in this forum thread and everyone else, to come to see the day, when your Son shall finally put death once and for all under His feet, with us rejoicing. We ask this through Him, so far as it pleases you, Amen.

Verses of potential interest:

He avenges the blood of his servants:

Deuteronomy 32:43 “Praise his people, O you nations; for he avenges the blood of his servants, and takes vengeance on his adversaries, and makes expiation for the land of his people.”

The smoke goes up for ever and ever

Isaiah 34:10 Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up for ever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall ever pass through it for ever and ever.

those who fear Him, small and great

Psalms 115:13 he will bless those who fear the Lord, both small and great.

Let us rejoice and exult and give him glory:

Psalms 118:24 This is the day which the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.

I saw heaven opened:

Ezekiel 1:1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the exiles by the river Chebar, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

His eyes are like fire:

Daniel 10:6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the noise of a multitude.

a sword to smite the nations:

Psalms 2:8-9 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel."

King of Kings, Lord of lords:

Daniel 2:47 The king said to Daniel, “Truly, your God is God of gods and Lord of kings, and a revealer of mysteris, for you have been able to reveal this mystery.”

The birds of heaven being called:

Ezekiel 39:4 You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your hordes and the peoples that are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the wild beasts to be devoured.
 
In hindsight concerning the scenes of the dragon, and the coming Millennium in Chapter 20, in case I miss it, i wanted to share the following, my personal mediation:

I see the entire collection of scenes of the dragon as an intermission that summarizes the whole of salvation history, and, at the same time, a parable of the three stage way of the saint in Catholic spirituality.

let me summarize the way of the saint. Prior to entrance into the New Covenant, the saint is a child of the devil. He does his will, not God’s, nor does he believe what God has revealed. Baptism deals the death blow to this mark, making the person a child of God. Hence, there is the “rebirth”. But behold, even after Baptism there is concupiscence. Also, the saint has some primary sinful tendencies to root out. So then the first stage is the purgative way, that is, war on the flesh. For the flesh tears against the spirit, therefore the flesh must be subjected to painful purgation. But behold, after the final dark night of the senses, the primary sinful tendencies are cast out. No longer does the devil rule this person.

Behold, the primary sinful tendencies have been beaten, and now commences the illuminative phase. So then now the saint is ever growing in his perception of God, progressively immersing himself deeper into the mind of God and his mysteries. But, again, there is sin in the world, so then as the saint grows ever deeper in his understanding, the outside world grows more sinful and more in opposition. Finally, there is the culmination of the illuminative phase called the dark night of the soul. In this phase, the saint seems abandoned by God, the outside world calls his knowledge of mystery a lie, it seems as though nothing is true about God.

But, behold, the saint eventually emerges from the dark night and the revelation he progressively receieved that had seemed a lie in pain is then vindicated, and the saint then rests in the unitive way, where, having been tested to the full, his will becomes one with the Will of God. And he enjoys a period of deep intimacy with God that is unparalleled, except that is, by the Beatific Vision itself, which is yet future.

But behold, the unitive way does not pass uninterrupted by darkness to the next age, heaven, for there is the final darkness, martyrdom. But so then, in martyrdom, the saint gives all and abandons all into the hands of God, following his Savior through the ultimate sacrifice, then, of course, crossing the threshold of life into the next age, heaven.

So, then let us apply the scenes of the dragon to the way of the saint.

In the beginning of Revelation 12, the dragon reigns in heaven, that is, prior to the “birth” of the Christ Child (Baptism, the First Coming), the dragon IS the prince of this world, for the vast majority of man is in the chains of paganism, self-deification, the glorification of himself and the Creation above the Creator. But behold, the child is born in pain (for the People of God suffered greatly to prepare the Coming of the Messiah), and ascends to the Throne, hence, yes, from Pentecost, the Kingdom is already here, and henceforth, clearly, the Woman, in the context of salvation history, is the New People of God, the Church.

But, again, just as the saint must be purged, so then the dragon does not give up that easily. He will not go down without a fight. Therefore, he fights through the enforced dark night of the senses on the children of God to prevent the world from being converted the first time. Hence, the pain of sense, pagan persecution (i.e, mostly Rome). But he does not win, for behold, he is cast out. For the blood of the martyrs, who were falsely accused (“Day and night he accused them”) was the seed of Christians (“and they overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb, and they loved not their lives unto death
”). Behold, Constantine conquered, and paganism fell, the great statue was brought down, and in its place rose up a great mountain, which is the Church.

Hence, the dragon is cast out of heaven, for in Catholic Christendom, he is no longer the ruler of this world. The beast of Daniel 7 was cast into the fire, and the kingdom was given to the “saints of the Most High.” But again, the dragon is not utterly defeated yet. He lost the war in heaven, but he is now on earth, hence he wages war on the earth, that is, “the pillar and foundation of truth”, the Magisterium. Hence, for the next 1700 years, his war, while many times including temporal troubles, is rather of deeper nature in root: a spiritual war. For his only hope, of course, is to reverse the conversion. But how? Can he do it overnight? No way. It must be process, even as the illumination of the saint is a process.

So then he pursues the woman, perhaps the initial wave of heresies. But she flies to safety by the wings, most likely Catholic Christendom, where the Church had at least a little bit of rest from the serpent, and flourished in the Middle Ages unlike any age yet, even though it was still troublesome for her (a time, times and a half time).

So the dragon spews a flood of “heresies” after the woman, in order that she might be “carried away” by error. Hence, perhaps Protestantism and the Enlightenment, attacks that are so great as to prepare the way for the minor apostasy. But the “earth swallows the flood and saves the woman”, in as much as the Magisterium, being the “foundation of truth”, swallows all lies and preserves the truth, in order that Christ’s children might not be “carried away” into error. Indeed, Trent was so good to respond to the heretical rebellion, that another council was not needed for three centuries. Likewise, Vatican I preserved the integrity of the Church in the face of the errors of the Enlightenment, and a little of the coming of the apostasy.

So then the Church is still standing after all this as the twentieth century begins, and of course, the devil is royally p.o.’d. Hence, there be something to Leo XIII’s locution, “I can destroy your Church. Give me 75-100 years”. So he runs off to make war with the remnant Catholic faithful.

So, then, in the latter half of the twentieth century, the apostasy (and therefore the figurative beast and false prophet) arises, atheism in the east, and relativistic hedonistic materialism in the West. And the deception of these is still believed.

But with the Vials of Wrath, that is, on one layer, the Minor Chastisement, shows the iniquity for what it is.

So then, through the Minor Tribulation, humanity gloriously reverts to all of the truth, that is, a great spiritual resurrection occurs, the faith of the just that had been martyred both literally and figuratively comes back to life, and there is, after the dark night of the soul of the Minor Apostasy, the unitive phase. The beast and false prophet are cast into the fire, because Christ has then completed his Redemptive work WITHIN human history by gloriously restoring the Prodigal Gentile Son to the House of the Father, and bringing about, through an epic crisis, the fullness of the Gentiles. This, then, is the chaining of the dragon, the Millennium, in which, as the saint’s will finally becomes one with the will of God, fully prepared to do whatever God calls him to do, so the Gentiles, having been shown the full consequences of iniquity, come to reaccept the light of Christ and do His will to the best degree that shall ever exist in human history.

But, again, even the unitive phase is interrupted by a final darkness. So then, because iniquity cannot be restrained forever, the force of concupiscence will exert itself one final remaining time. The Gentiles will forget that their world almost ended once, and they shall loose the dragon from his prison and apostatize the final time, the Great Apostasy, which is when Revelation 13 to 16 is played all over again, except this time, no lesson can be learned, humanity is irredeemable. So then God destroys the world by fire in the Second Coming and ushers in the Last Judgement and Resurrection.

That’s my take. Sorry it was long, but I thought I would elaborate.


oops, i lost my point: the intermediate apostasy is the dark night of the soul. The final apostasy is martyrdom, the Second Coming, heaven. IOW, the dragon’s episode on earth is the illuminative phase, the minor apostasy, or first application of Revelation 13 is the dark night of the soul, the Millennium is the untive phase, the release of the dragon at the end, martyrdom, the Second Coming, heaven, as it relates to the saint.
 
.I see the entire collection of scenes of the dragon as an intermission that summarizes the whole of salvation history, and, at the same time, a parable of the three stage way of the saint in Catholic spirituality.

.

oops, i lost my point: the intermediate apostasy is the dark night of the soul. The final apostasy is martyrdom, the Second Coming, heaven. IOW, the dragon’s episode on earth is the illuminative phase, the minor apostasy, or first application of Revelation 13 is the dark night of the soul, the Millennium is the untive phase, the release of the dragon at the end, martyrdom, the Second Coming, heaven, as it relates to the saint.
Click to expand...
This is insightfull. The revelation is known in it’s deepest when internalized. Then the events can be externalized and it’s application to the world, past, present and future can be better understood.
 
**Chapter 20
1
Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a heavy chain.
2
He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, and tied it up for a thousand years
3
and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time.
4
Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection.
6
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for (the) thousand years.
7
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison.
8
He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
9
They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10
The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11
Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12
I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13
The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. **
 
This is one of the most confusing chapters to me perhaps you all can help me out

I know many people interprit the 1000 years differently
 
After Christ returns, he establishes his kingdom on earth, he raises all the true Saints and true martyrs from the dead, then he ascends to Heaven, and the Church reigns for over a thousand years. After that time, Christ returns for Judgement and the general Resurrection.

It isn’t possible to interpret this passage as referring to the present time, because the Antichrist and the false prophet were thrown into Hell before this time, then after this time Satan is thrown into Hell to join them.

Also, Satan is bound for the entire thousand years, but during the present time Satan is obviously not bound. A number of Popes have spoken about the presence and influence of Satan in the world today. Therefore, he is not yet bound.

This page has a good treatment of the idea of a reign of peace and holiness for the Church, and two returns for Christ:
mmp-usa.net/arc_defense.html

The majority view in the Church has been that the text of Revelation 20:1-10 is to be understood figuratively. In this view, there is no first resurrection of martyrs and Saints, and Christ returns only once, at the end of the Antichrist’s reign which would also then be Judgment Day (the time of the general Resurrection of the just and the unjust. The thousand year reign is then understood to be figurative, and, in the view of many, to be already underway.

However, this majority view has never been definitively declared by the Magisterium. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, when it was led by Cardinal Ratzinger, responded that the Magisterium has not decided the question definitively. (Fr. Albert G. Roux, In Defense of the Orthodoxy of the Marian Movement of Priests
, 2001, p. 34).

Also, there is significant support for the minority view, that Christ will return twice, with an intermediate spiritual reign lasting over a thousand years, in the writings of the Saints and the Fathers of the Church. See the extensive documentation on this point by Fr. Iannuzzi in The Triumph of God’s Kingdom in the Millennium and End Times
 
The interpretation that I am most familiar with is the one that St Augustine of Hippo wrote down in the last few parts of his ‘City of God’.

He claimed that the first resurrection was our baptism, when our souls were reborn from being dead in sin and came to life in Jesus Christ. That the millennium had already come and was with us now in the form of the kingdom of God in which the Lord’s kingdom now, at this minute, reigns on the earth by way of the baptized who do the Lord’s will. That binding into hell of the devil referred to the victory of Jesus over the works of the devil in His incarnation and the thousand year reign of the saints, began at the incarnation and will end at the second coming. The Lord is incarnate in the world now in the form of His body which we receive in the Eucharist and to which we are joined.

St Augustine wrote that Gog and magog could have been nations which at his time were in the vicinity of Russia, and he also came to understand that the meaning of the words were ‘a roof’ and ‘from a roof’ which he interpreted to mean a house, or rather the devil’s house once all of the wicked were let out of hell at the end of the world (and that must be a massive number) to come back to the earth at the time of the second resurrection (wherein all the dead come back to walk on the earth)
 He explains it much better than I am here, so here is a link to what he wrote for anyone interested ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XX.6.html

These verses have proven to be very dangerous in terms of how they have been interpreted in human history. Many chiliastic christians have come and gone who have raised fervour in times past that led to all sorts of violence and sinfulness hinged on the belief that the ‘millenium’ was soon at hand. The city of Munster in 1534 is the most extreme example I know of this sort of thing if anyone would like to find out what I mean.

I am inclined to follow St Augustine’s interpretation because it is the one that makes the most sense to me, simply because it seems to correspond to what we know about our faith in that those who die with Christ in our life now will not be cast into the fires at the final judgment.

Based on what Ezekiel wrote I am tempted to think that maybe Gog and Magog were terms that would have been better understood at the time period in Israel
 but I don’t know.

Some have even thought that Gog and Magog referred to Soviet Russia and its satellite states in the 20th century.

Verses of potential interest:

I saw thrones & the books were opened:

Daniel 7:9 As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was ancient of days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne ws fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came forth from before him; and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

Gog and Magog

Ezekiel 38:2 "Son of man, set your face toward God, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophecy against him

Ezekiel 38:14-16 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy, and say to Gog, Thus says the Lord God; On that day when my people Israel are dwelling securely, you will bestir yourself and come from your place out of the uttermost parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army; you will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

Ezekiel 38:17-18 "Thus says the Lord God: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who would bring you against them? But on that day, when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, says the Lord God, my wrath will be roused.

Fire came down from heaven

2 Kings 1:10-12 But Elijah answered the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. Again the king sent to him another captain of fifty men with his fifty. And he went up and said to him, “O man of God, this is the king’s order, ‘Come down quickly!’” But Elijah answered them, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.
 
St John is clearly using symbolic language to describe a spiritual reality. The 1,000 years is symbolic of a very long time, when Satan is kept from deceiving the nations.

do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming (2 Thes 2:5-8)

The kingdom was established as a result of Christ’s Passion and Resurrection, and we have figuratively been in the millenium for a very long time. The Millennial Kingdom is the present ecclesiastical one. (the Church Age)

Christ is currently reigning. He isn’t waiting to reign until after victory. That is how we, the Church Militant, are active in cooperating with the Church Triumphant. The overcoming of Christ’s enemies is one of the main focus’ of ruling the Kingdom.

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1 Cor 15:25)
 
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