Bible study turns to Catholic bashing

[Patrick_Murebil]

Perhaps I shouldn’t of used the word ‘break’, but I he won’t listen to anything Catholic. Just tells me the pope is the anti-Christ and I just look at him with such sorrow :bighanky: but I will pray for hm and hope that the Holy Spirit will guide him just as he guided you. Welcome home.

Hi churchcamefirst,

I was thinking about your issue at work, and still maintain that much prayer is the best way to go. I also have a couple suggestions for you regarding some things that when they came to my attention, caused me to seriously look at my beliefs as a SDA. They may serve as a good start for some talking points.

1. In the creation story in Genesis chapters 1 and 2, each day of creation ends with “and the evening and the morning were the ____day”. I always thought that that phrase was at the end of the seventh day of creation, and it is NOT. And I read those verses I don’t know how many times, and never noticed that until it was pointed out to me. I asked a few of my friends who are SDAs if that phrase was at the end of the seventh day in the creation story, and they all (3 people) said yes. I told them to look it up. It is my guess that most SDAs think that phrase is in that verse. I cannot begin to tell you what a bizzare feeling came over me to have read that verse all these years, and never once read it correctly. And to find others reading it the same way.
2. Another case in point just like the one above deals with Jesus on the cross. SDAs are opposed to the use of alcohol, and make a point of supporting that by trying to say that Jesus did not drink fermented beverages, even on the cross when offered the wine vinegar, he turned away and refused it. If you read all the Gospel accounts of The Passion, He did indeed turn away from the wine vinegar offered to Him as He was carrying the cross to Calvary. Yet in John 19:28-30 we read that when He was on the cross He RECEIVED it. This was confounding to me to have believed otherwise, and yet always claiming to believe the Bible and the Bible only.
3. In Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions." Here Jesus is talking about being accused of being a drunkard because, unlike John the Baptist, He came eating and drinking. How in the world could anyone be accused of being a drunkard, unless what they were drinking could make a person drunk? And that would be fermented beverages, most likely wine…oh yes, the Bible does mention Jesus drinking wine…in fact His firste miracle was turning water into wine.
4. SDAs will tell you, when trying to prove that saturday worship in binding on Christians, that the first day (sunday) is only mentioned 8 times in the NT and nowhere is there a command to keep holy the first day of the week. The sabbath is mentioned 57 times in the NT, and seventh day once. Nowhere in the NT is there a command to keep holy the 7th day sabbath. Why is that? And if keeping the 7th day sabbath saturday is so importat as SDAs teach, why did Jesus not teach about it at all in Matthew chapters 5,6, and 7?

There are other examples, but these are the ones that caused me to begin reassessing my beliefs as a SDA in light of the Sacred Scriptures. Should you get into a discussion with your co-worker he will most likely heap many verses on you. If that happens, take the verses he gives you, one verse at a time, and read before and after the verse. In many cases you will find the verse they are using to prove a point is taken out of context.

And even after all that he most likely will continue to believe as he now does, and you will still be looked upon as deceived by Satan and worhipping the anti-christ. People pointed out my obvious errors for years and I never heard them, and he most likely won’t hear you. That is why prayer is the most powerful thing you can do for him…this is God’s work, have faith and trust that God knows how best to reach your co-worker. I was held up in prayer for 8 years…but then I’m a bit duller and more thick skulled than most people…so there is even greater hope for others!!!

I hope this helpful.

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi churchcamefirst,

1. In Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions." Here Jesus is talking about being accused of being a drunkard because, unlike John the Baptist, He came eating and drinking. How in the world could anyone be accused of being a drunkard, unless what they were drinking could make a person drunk? And that would be fermented beverages, most likely wine…oh yes, the Bible does mention Jesus drinking wine…in fact His firste miracle was turning water into wine.

take the verses he gives you, one verse at a time, and read before and after the verse. In many cases you will find the verse they are using to prove a point is taken out of context.

And even after all that he most likely will continue to believe as he now does, and you will still be looked upon as deceived by Satan and worhipping the anti-christ. People pointed out my obvious errors for years and I never heard them, and he most likely won’t hear you. That is why prayer is the most powerful thing you can do for him…this is God’s work, have faith and trust that God knows how best to reach your co-worker. I was held up in prayer for 8 years…but then I’m a bit duller and more thick skulled than most people…so there is even greater hope for others!!!

I hope this helpful.

God bless all!!!

Howdy Patrick

I don’t want you to get me wrong here; but to me, there are many holes in your above doctrinal understandings/interpretations,

I will just choose one for now, as my time is too short to be able to address them all in one post. But I will come back to some of the others later.

On the issue of alcohol use which you brought up in point #3, you stated the following:

How in the world could anyone be accused of being a drunkard, unless what they were drinking could make a person drunk?

To be sure we are actually on the same page here, would you mind quoting the exact scripture/s you refer to in this point #3?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Howdy Patrick

I don’t want you to get me wrong here; but to me, there are many holes in your above doctrinal understandings/interpretations,

I will just choose one for now, as my time is too short to be able to address them all in one post. But I will come back to some of the others later.

On the issue of alcohol use which you brought up in point #3, you stated the following:

To be sure we are actually on the same page here, would you mind quoting the exact scripture/s you refer to in this point #3?

Hi 101,

I don’t see any holes in what I said, but feel free comment on what you think.

I thought I did quote the scriptures I was referring to in point #3 at the beginning of point #3…Matthew 11:18, 19.

…or are you wondering about the wedding feast at Cana? That would be John chapter 2

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi 101,

I don’t see any holes in what I said, but feel free comment on what you think.

I thought I did quote the scriptures I was referring to in point #3 at the beginning of point #3…Matthew 11:18, 19.

…or are you wondering about the wedding feast at Cana? That
would be John chapter 2

God bless all!!!

Thankyou Patrick, I thought this was the scripture you had in mind but just wanted to be sure - it is too easy to presume in brief internet postings.

A number of things puzzle me about your post #81 above, in particular your point #3 therein as that is what we are currently addressing.

In Math 11:19, we read a little phrase: “they say.” I would like to explore who Jesus was referring to when he said “they?”

In your post #81, I “cherry-picked” (thanks Marys Roses for that phrase ) a few phrases you used to characterize us heretic, “pseudo-Church” (bendict XVI) Adventists with:

1/ he will most likely heap many verses on you

2/ In many cases you will find the verse they are using to prove a point is taken out of context

3/ he most likely will continue to believe as he now does

4/ you will still be looked upon as deceived by Satan and worhipping the anti-christ

5/ he most likely won’t hear you

It is these kinds of characterizations that make me think of certain “How To Witness To Adventists” types of falsehoods and cult “ministries.” You, who try to say in other posts that “maybe we are on the way to becoming friends” should really stop and think how such gumbo sounds to your potential new “friends.” With #4 in particular I think that you of all people who used to be Adventist, should know that is NOT how many Adventists think about Catholics. You give false hopes, and unBiblical principles to Catholics for “reaching” Adventists. This kind of thing makes me ask some much more serious questions; but I think my point is made for now.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

It is these kinds of characterizations that make me think of certain “How To Witness To Adventists” types of falsehoods and cult “ministries.” You, who try to say in other posts that “maybe we are on the way to becoming friends” should really stop and think how such gumbo sounds to your potential new “friends.” With #4 in particular I think that you of all people who used to be Adventist, should know that is NOT how many Adventists think about Catholics. You give false hopes, and unBiblical principles to Catholics for “reaching” Adventists. This kind of thing makes me ask some much more serious questions; but I think my point is made for now.

Hi 101,

My comments were to “churchcamefirst” who was asking me how to approach his co-worker who doesn’t seem open to discussion, and just continues to tell churchcamefirst that the Pope is the anti-christ.

So I stand by my advice that was given to churchcamefirst in that specific situation…or any other situation with any other SDA who has the same attitude as the co-worker of churchcamefirst.

In all my years in the SDA church, I never knew any SDA who did not believe that the Pope is the anti-christ, or that the Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation and the Whore of Babylon. So when you say that I “should know that is NOT how many Adventists think about Catholics.”…all I can say is that I do not know that, and every SDA I ever knew believed that. They may not have been vocal in expressing that belief to Catholics (which was the category I was in), but they all believed it. It is core to SDA church belief and existence.

As for “reaching” Adventists, this is a term and concept you bring up. I know that the SDA church has put much thought and planning into “reaching” other denominations as well as the un-churched with the Adventist Message…“The Three Angels’ Message”. I wasn’t teaching churchcamefirst to “reach” Adventists with the “Catholic Message”, but how to deal with a closed minded…not a good choice of words…how to deal with a true believing co-worker who believes error, falsehood, and lies about churchcamefirst’s Church, and evidently openly says so by calling the Pope the anti-christ.

If you read my last paragraph in the post you refer to, I don’t give much hope at all, let alone false hope. I tell churchcamefirst that even if he dialogs on the points I suggested, that his co-worker most likely will continue to believe the errors he holds dear. That is why my advice to churchcamefirst, and even to you and me, is that prayer is the most important work we can do. Praying for others is more beneficial than debating with them…perhaps the most important thing I’ve learned on this forum.

And praying is not an “unBiblical principle”…and neither is asking SDAs questions regarding the 4 points I suggested in the post. After all, it is you who has pointed out over and over that Jesus asked many questions as a method of teaching truth…and I don’t think you would say that Jesus used “unBiblical principles”.

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi 101,

My comments were to “churchcamefirst” who was asking me how to approach his co-worker who doesn’t seem open to discussion, and just continues to tell churchcamefirst that the Pope is the anti-christ.

Very nice defensive post. You appear unwilling to admit how the five specific points I named above from your characterizations of Adventists really are. That is what I was addressing, not the advice to pray, or the asking of questions. I did not say a word about Adventists and what they believe about the Pope; but in another post, I already tried to tell you that the Bible mentions “antichrist” in a plural sense, so you mistate the official Adventist view on antiChrist. Atleast you give a very incomplete picture of it. Based on those 5 points of your’s, methinks that you are doing the same kind of Adventist bashing as the “Catholic bashing” that this thread is trying to address. You are trying to couch it with “good” reasons, and lofty sentiments - which do nothing but sicken me.

 

[Noble]

Yes, I have pointed out how anti-Catholic some Protestant Bible studies are, but I go because I am still a member of the church, and because I do try to point out the Catholic point of view. Again, it is a long story as to why I am not Catholic, but suffice it to say I am slowly making my way.

Hi t68ware,
Continue your journey towards the Catholic Church. Also, pray for your family to receive the gift of the Catholic Faith. God will do the rest.
Although the bible study is at your church I would look for another one . If you know you are on a journey to the Catholic Church find a truly **faithful **Catholic bible study.

Peace be to you and God love you.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Very nice defensive post. You appear unwilling to admit how the five specific points I named above from your characterizations of Adventists really are.

Ok…fair enough. Let’s take your five points, which you admit to “cherry picking” from their context, and look at them as the only points I was making. Tell me where my observations are incorrect. You’ve been on this forum for just about 2 years now. What have you discussed and/or learned on this forum that would negate those five points?

That is what I was addressing, not the advice to pray, or the asking of questions.

I thought that was what I did address in my previous post, and then added my thoughts about praying and asking questions in the context of that.

I did not say a word about Adventists and what they believe about the Pope; but in another post, I already tried to tell you that the Bible mentions “antichrist” in a plural sense, so you mistate the official Adventist view on antiChrist. Atleast you give a very incomplete picture of it. Based on those 5 points of your’s, methinks that you are doing the same kind of Adventist bashing as the “Catholic bashing” that this thread is trying to address. You are trying to couch it with “good” reasons, and lofty sentiments - which do nothing but sicken me.

I apologize if you feel bashed. It is not my intention to bash Adventists. It was my intention to provide churchcamefirst with some points of discussion which reveal that not all claims to follow teachings coming from the Bible only are only from the Bible. I am not responsible for creating those inconsistencies or continuing to believe those inconsistencies no matter how uncomfortable that decision may make someone feel.

Yes I remember you pointing out that the Bible shows anti-christ to be plural and many. I also remember posting page after page of SDA quotes regarding the Catholic Church and the Pope being the Beast and the anti-christ. For anyone interested… that discussion can be found in the “Amazing Facts Bible Study Guides” thread in the Non-Catholic Religions section.

So just for the record, for clarification, and so I don’t mis-represent or mis-characterize SDA views on the Catholic Church and the Pope…why don’t you share with me here what you think and believe about that Pope and the Catholic Church? Share with us the “complete picture”.

That might go a long way to clearing this up…and make you feel better.

God bless all!!!

 

[TBolt1000T]

Because Luther WAS a heretic, and for the same reasons.

I have to agree with SIA on this one. Please give the OP a break! He has enough problems already, so he doesn’t need to be called a heretic.

To the OP, you’re in my prayers, and I hope you make it home. Do you pray the Rosary? If you do, you may want to consider praying it with a request for your family to accept you, no matter whether you’re Catholic or Protestant. If you don’t, or can’t pray the Rosary, you could always ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray for you and your family. I hope and pray that either your family accepts your beliefs, or that you can someday just jump the fence, and not let your wife and children control you like that. God bless you.

 

[Protestant101]

Ok…fair enough. Let’s take your five points, which you admit to “cherry picking” from their context, and look at them as the only points I was making. Tell me where my observations are incorrect. You’ve been on this forum for just about 2 years now. What have you discussed and/or learned on this forum that would negate those five points?

Actually, you have missed my point again.

I did not “admit” to anything. I was being antonymous/facetious when I said that I “cherry-picked” those five points. Look whos cherry-picking things out of context now.

What I am saying here is that no matter the context, your characterizations of Adventists, using those five points are dead wrong. And not true.

I am not interested in “negating” those five points you described us with, but I am interested in seeing if you can admit that you have overstepped by characterizing Adventists like this.

1/ he will most likely heap many verses on you

2/ In many cases you will find the verse they are using to prove a point is taken out of context

3/ he most likely will continue to believe as he now does

4/ you will still be looked upon as deceived by Satan and worhipping the anti-christ

5/ he most likely won’t hear you

These are things you have said. In the first post where you said them, you started addressing it in reference to an individual; but then expanded the implication to more, in your following comments. At any rate; if you try to deny the implications these five points you gave have, it’s up to you. I can only tell you what I “hear” as do many others, when we read such things. It does strongly suggest that you extend such thinking to all Adventists who won’t “listen” and that is scary because to you, not listening is equated with not agreeing within whatever time frame you deem is appropriate. Talking like that about even just one person to anyone does not confer hope, but it does confer other things whether you like it or not.

I would also like to see you answer to my question about your point #3 above where you mentioned Jesus being accused of being a drunkard. Who was accusing Him of this? What does the Bible say?

 

[eucharisteo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by t68ware forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Let me answer one question since there are some who do not understand my position. I am not yet Catholic due to family issues and the problems it would cause problems with my children
and wife. For those of you who think that is a simple solution, you have no idea how hard it is. I go to RCIA not just to converse, but to one day become Catholic so please do not think I go just to converse. I will jump the fence one day, but will do so when God helps my family to understand.

I was in a similar situation for 17 years. You are in my prayers.

I certainly relate to this. My wife is from a fundamentalist family. I married her after they convinced me I’d go to hell if I didn’t convert. Then I married her. The situation was very bleak for me. and her if I abandoned her once I realized I may have made a serious error in judgement. I begged God to forgive me but that if he truly wanted me to be Catholic to convert her first. 17 years later…voi la… She was received into the Church along withour 11 old son and our 2 youngest children were baptized the day after our convalidation. The DRE wanted to bring the entire family in at the same time. I thought I’d have to do serious penance for years before being accepted. I thought I had “defected” properly…turns out that it was not accepted because I didn’t write a letter to my bishop. I was also victim of several scandals and was bouncing off the walls most of my life. My mom was not Catholic and my dad was a Traditional Catholic…before it was traditional…meaning before we even knew of SPXX.

Be at peace. You are fine. You are a long term candidate it sounds like. That is fine. Just communicate with the priest to make sure you know what to do. Be careful listening to us on here. We often put our foot where our mouth is.

PAX.

I too have defended the Church even while in the fundamentalist group. They were shocked and speechless because they didn’t know what to say. Which was wierd. Once I even began to teach the youth that the Catholic Church was filled with man made tradition. But during the presentation the Holy Spirit dimmed my mind and confused me…confused me with the truth. For some reason I didn’t see it during my personal study, but when I got in front of the kids …suddenly in the middle of a statement… I saw it with my own eyes for the first time…this is not “man made tradition”…this is Sacred Tradition and was explained in a very good way. It was the first time in all my life that I actually began to understand the difference. I was 30 at the time. I converted to them when I was 27 while serving in the military. My wife’s father was an elder. So he was a very convincing elderly man that set a very good example.

[Edited to add]
Oh yes…my father in law died in 2004…opening the door for my wife. My mother in law is still living but my wife refuses to tell her to avoid her mother anguish thinking she’s going to hell.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Actually, you have missed my point again.

I did not “admit” to anything. I was being antonymous/facetious when I said that I “cherry-picked” those five points. Look whos cherry-picking things out of context now.

What I am saying here is that no matter the context, your characterizations of Adventists, using those five points are dead wrong. And not true.

I am not interested in “negating” those five points you described us with, but I am interested in seeing if you can admit that you have overstepped by characterizing Adventists like this.

Those are my observations and experiecences time after time. I don’t know that I ever said “all”, “every”, “each” SDA is like that, but I am able to see how that could easily be assumed by my statements.

So generally, I would say that what I said applies, unless you can show otherwise. And I’m not saying that you have to show the negation of my statements for every SDA…just how those do not apply to you specifically.

It would be interesting to see what other Catholics or non-SDAs think about my statements based on their experiences and observations with SDAs.

These are things you have said. In the first post where you said them, you started addressing it in reference to an individual; but then expanded the implication to more, in your following comments. At any rate; if you try to deny the implications these five points you gave have, it’s up to you. I can only tell you what I “hear” as do many others, when we read such things. It does strongly suggest that you extend such thinking to all Adventists who won’t “listen” and that is scary because to you, not listening is equated with not agreeing within whatever time frame you deem is appropriate. Talking like that about even just one person to anyone does not confer hope, but it does confer other things whether you like it or not.

I don’t now, nor did I before, ever try to deny what I said…that would be difficult since it is in writing above I still believe what I said based on the reasons I gave above. There is nothing scary to me about it. Having been a SDA I really don’t expect any SDA to be influenced by anything I say about Catholic teaching, or my belief that the Catholic Church is God’s One True Church and that the SDA church is not as I once believed. When I decided to join the Catholic Church I was very surprised to find that other SDAs had converted to Catholicism…I was very surprised…but not as surprised as I will be when you tell me that you are going to join us I say that with a good spirit, not to insult you…I sitll believe we are on the road to friendship…in fact at this point in time we certainly have a relationship, and inspite of our disagreements I feel safe to say that we might both consider it friendly:thumbsup:

I would also like to see you answer to my question about your point #3 above where you mentioned Jesus being accused of being a drunkard. Who was accusing Him of this? What does the Bible say?

Ok…I’m going to ignore our history where I’ve answered your questions before and you have not answered my questions…and I’ll answer your question now, and ask you to answer my question as to what you think about the Pope and the Catholic Church.

Will you answer that question honestly?

As to who “they” were…the answer is in the verse I quoted…it was those who said here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners. I didn’t take the time to quote the verses that show this, but if you do a concordance seach on the verses where Jesus is called a friend of tax collectors, and sinners, you will find all the sciptures showing the many who made these statements…religious leaders, the masses of people when they would get riled up against Jesus, etc.

I will look forward to your answer to my question now.

God bless all!!!

 

[rinnie]

I went to my churches Bible study last week like I always do, and my church has members which are not friendly to Catholic doctine. (Wesleyan Church) A member of the study asked a question about praying to saints and Mary and it started a Catholic bashing session. I agree with the Catholic church and her teachings. Why I am not Catholic is a long story, but suffice it to say I was boiling inside and my wife even commented to the other members how upset I was getting but it made no difference. The pastor was even calling the tradition of praying to the saints “silly” and it is not a true doctrine. It greatly saddens me to see such things happen. I will NEVER go back to the Bible study, even though I am a member of the church. I went to my RCIA class two days later and it was so refreshing to hear the Father say that all Christian viewpoints will be respected and nobody will be called on the carpet because they are not Catholic. I just had to vent because it was greatly upsetting. How refreshing to go to RCIA and have thoughful, respectful conversations!

I havent read any responses but I will say one thing, Like we are taught be like Jesus and turn the other cheek. But im so glad you didn’t go back. No Religion should bash another. We can disagree but not bash, I think of that saying What would Jesus do? I am so happy you stood up for our Church though thank-you for that. God Bless You.

 

[rinnie]

One more thing this is what my Dad would tell you. PRAY FOR THOSE PEOPLE. That God will open their eyes and fill them with the Grace only he could give. Now im not saying I could do that but i guess we could both try. Its so hard to be a good Catholic sometimes isnt it. I shouldnt say good Catholic I should say good Christian. Christian=Christ Like. So ill make a deal with you, You say and prayer as soon as you read this, and I will go into the room alone and do it now.