Bible Typology Class

[BibleReader]

blackfish152:

Again sorry to disturb the flow of the thread, but I couldnt resist posting my thoughts. on this 19th Sunday in ordinary time Gospel, from Matthew 14:22-33.

Jesus made disciples get into the boat [church] go on ahead to the other side [leading the way to the spirit so to speak away from the ways of flesh?]…he went to hills to pray.prefiguring his ascension, when he would pray to the father for them? and leave them] Evening came…boat far out on the lake [Church alone without the immediate recognisable -presence of Christ, in the sea of despair among the dammed] battling with a heavy sea [prob some sign of persecution/fear] for there was a headwind [Not sure what a heavy wind suggests? Trouble? But there was a violent wind immediately before the Lord came in 1Kings 19:12, and indicated the coming of the Holy spirit in Acts 2]. 4th watch of the night he went towards them [number 4 is a type for “everyone” I think one of your posts says, Night to me suggests abandonment, despair,(just like at Golgotha-darkness came when He died) perhaps for everyone in the world without Christs presence, there is only despair]…they saw him walking on the lake. [Someone earlier in a post said, he is above the dammed/the lost, superior, separate from their ways so to speak]…it’s a ghost [perhaps an indication of the appearance of the resurrected Christ? Or transfigured Christ? ] Peter said…If it is you tell me to come out across the water… [Perhaps an allusion to the early Acts, when peter filled with the spirit speaks out across the water-to the dammed-those who haven’t embraced the gospel] Come…just like his invitation to follow in the end of John 21:22] peter got out of the boat [He lead the Church militant to the Church triumphant in heaven across the waters of despair , or [perhaps leading the church from the way of the flesh to the way of spirit?] He felt the force of the wind and started to sink [again the strong wind thing! Not sure= Trouble? My earlier logic may fail me here] peter said Lord save me! Jesus put out his hand at once and held him. [Perhaps a reference to the receiving of the spirit at Pentecost]. They got into the boat and the wind dropped back in the safety of the Church, with the spirit now. Note the wind dropped, so we now have a gentle wind, which represents the presence of God, as the verse in Kings cited in the first reading and above suggests, and also in the Genesis 3:8] they bowed down before him [all in the boat, they realised the lord in his saving action and worshipped], so now the Church proceeds with its bridegroom/spirit along to the other side (to salvation), all the time in the presence of Christ indicating the real sacramental presence of Christ among us today, until the end of time, or end of our time, when we reach the other side], all the while for the ship to float, it must keep its ways separate from the waters of the dammed,(ultimately it’s a balance, as we all know the church is full of wheat and tares) or else it will ultimately sink, short of its goal-the other side.

This has been a fun experiment:yup: . Can you give me any indication as to the validity of anything I said? If my interpretation is correct, I bet some early church father has already said it.

God bless
m

The position from which you mentally position yourself to interpret the reading is actually pretty good. I would stand back a little bit farther, and view the verses with a teensy-weensy bit less detail and a little bit more hindsight.

When Jesus dispatches the Apostles in the boat (Boat Type = “Church”) to the other side of Gennesaret Lake (Abyss Type = “the sea of damnable souls”), and then ascends to the “hills” (Mountain Type = “God’s dwelling place,” that really is a good picture of Christ ascend to Heaven and the Church commnencing its mission on the Sea of Damnable Souls to the enbd of time.

Note also that this story is a kind of mini-picture of Noah’s flood. (There the raven released by Noah is Christ ascending to Heaven.)

 

[BibleReader]

Wind = the Wind Type = “a special presence of God.” God??? Why would God attack the Church with giant waves and wind and such???

I think that what we are seeing here is the world made miserable, for the damnable souls, by our Original Sin “aliented-from-God” state-of-being. Note that it is GOD who kicks Adam and Eve out of the perfection of Paradise. Genesis 3:23. So, in that sense, the wind is an appropriate figure for the troubles of the world afflicting the Church. The crashing of the waves are the sins and opposition gfenerated by the damnable souls in the Sea of Damnable Souls.

The fact that all of this occurs in the “evening” – Darkness Type = “God’s condemning judgement” – ratifies the interp of “Wind” as a God-caused thing.

I checked and the Greek does say tetartos, the “fourth” watch. So, we do have the Four Type here, meaning “everyone.” I think that here the “everyone-ness” of the Four Type simply refers to exactly what we see – Christ coming to “calm the hormones” of “everyone” in the story – the Church in the boat and the rest of humanity in the waves being ministered-to by the Church.

Christ walks on the water, not in it, because He is no longer in the form of “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.” (In the Book of Tobit, at Tobit 6, you can see Christ in the water, biting Tobiah’s foot [to do what Christ recommends at Matthew 18:8], and at 1 Kings 18:45 you can see Christ in the form of a hand-sized cloud [Arm/Hand Type = “Christ”] coming out of the Sea of Damnable Souls. In each case, He is there, though sinless, because Christ is “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.”) I think that Christ invites Peter to also walk on water, and therefore to typological sinlessness, and then Peter screws-up and sinks, to foreshadow some of the terrible failures and sinking into sin of the Church of the Popes over the ages. (That’s okay: Note that that foreshadowing also implicitly ratifies that we are *THE *Church.) Christ puts out His “hand” and saves old Pete because He’s giving Him “Christ-ness” – the “hand” (Arm/Hand Type = “Christ.”)

The Wind drops and the waves diminish simply because Christ/God gives the Church special protection from the condemning judgement of God and the nastiness of the damnable souls in the Sea of Damnable Souls.

You’re going-off a little too wildly I think when you start connecting the picture here to “wheat and tares” and sinking and all of that.

Let your gospel be your guide, so to speak. Don’t go too far beyond the text.

Nonetheless, for a non-typologist, you really did do a pretty good job.

 

[BibleReader]

NotWorthy:

This type of typology has always confused me. How do you reconcile the Birds with Jesus parable:

He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a person took and sowed in a field. It is the smallest of all the seeds, yet when full-grown it is the largest of plants. It becomes a large bush, and the 'birds of the sky come and dwell in its branches." (Mt. 17:31:32)

Is there a time where we assume the bird/satan typology and believe that the Church is filled with Satan, or is there a time when we don’t use this typology? And how do we know?

NotWorthy

P.S. Thanks BibleReader for offering this.

Hi, NotWorthy.

I’ll jump in here, since I want to make sure that the comprehension is good.

The basic Bird Type = “demons,” “Devil,” “sin.”

However, read Post #1 in this thread. The most important concept to grasp in Bible typology is that Christ is often foreshadowed or portrayed with SIN symbols. The reason is simple: Christ, though sinless, offered Himself to suffer and die, to pay the price for our sinfulness which is exacted by God’s Own inevitable perfect justice, and so, by this avenue, sinless Christ ended-up being treated as though He were sin, itself. So, Paul calls Christ “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.” See 2 Corinthians 5:21.

So, in Leviticus 14, we see the Sacrifice of the Two Birds. There, one bird, who is Christ in the form of “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin,” is slaughted, and its blood splattered on a second bird, who is sin, itself, and that second bird is allowed to fly away – sin being driven away by the sacrificial blood of “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.”

The sinning birds in the great big Mustard Bush in the parable are sinners invited to nest in the cross of the Kingdom of God.

He came for sinners, didn’t He?

 

[BibleReader]

Edwin1961:

The name 'Israel" has many meanings. I sometimes get mixed up when in Scripture whether the name is referring to the Nation Israel, the person Israel or the people of Israel. Than then Jesus uses the name in a different way as well.

Can you help meunderstand these different uses of that name?

Hi, Edwin.

Strong’s Concordance of the King James Bible reveals that outside of the Deuteros, “Israel” is seen 5,266 times in the Bible.

Probably we should add about 10% to that number, for the Catholic Bible, since the complete Bible canon rightly includes the Deuterocanonicals.

So, Israel occurs about 5700 to 5800 times in Scripture.

I’ll start reviewing them, one by one.

Just teasing.

The best suggestion I can make is, Consult Strong’s Concordance, and look at context.

In certain ways Strongs Concordance in the book form is superior to the digital Strong’s Concordance in the web…

eliyah.com/lexicon.html

The non-digital book form, which costs about $40.00 (get the Exhaustive Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Appendices; buy a King James Bible as an “intermediary” between our Catholic Bible and the Protestant Strongs), breaks “Israel” down by concordizing it as three different varieties of word, “1. Name given to Jacob,” “2. People descended from Jacob,” and “3. The ten northern tribes.” The web-based digital format throws all of the Israel’s together.

I wish the Roman Catholic Church would settle on one basic Bible translation to use for the next three centuries, so that it could be concordized with a Catholic Concordance as good as Strong’s.

 

[Della]

Bible Reader to Ryan on “made sin” quote:

Also, you don’t get to ignore 2 Corinthians 5:21…

But, Ryan didn’t ignore 2 Corinthians 5:21, he explained the traditional understanding of the verse within its context which trumps stringing together of verses out of their context or any form of typology. Typology has its place, but it cannot replace proper primary interpretation which is in line with the teachings of the Church.

 

[Edwin1961]

Are there any books on How to learn Typology? What did you use to study Typology? Or is this only taught in seminaries? If so, then I should ask my brother since he is a priest.

Does CA (or anyone else) have any books that they can recommend?

 

[blackfish152]

Dear BR,

thanks for your replies, I have to think about some stuff and I will make a reply.
But along the lines of the last post- are you in a position to say when your own book will be published? and at what level is it suited?
thanks
m

 

[BibleReader]

Della:

But, Ryan didn’t ignore 2 Corinthians 5:21, he explained the traditional understanding of the verse within its context which trumps stringing together of verses out of their context or any form of typology. Typology has its place, but it cannot replace proper primary interpretation which is in line with the teachings of the Church.

Hi, Della. I disagreed that Ryan’s interp was the Church’s. Again, there are several verses corroborating my interp. He dealt with none of those. Let me re-post them here.

Hi, Ryan.

As I suspected, the “corollary verse,” Romans 8:3, actually contains both ideas…

For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Also, you don’t get to ignore 2 Corinthians 5:21…

For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Why ignore the italicized words “he made him to be sin”?

And then here’s Galatians 3:13…

Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming** a curse for us,…

Close enough. And then there’s 1 Peter 2:24…

He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness.

Again, close enough.

I didn’t just make-up the concept of Christ in the form of “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.” It is THE REASON why the Holy Spirit foreshadows Christ Himself with SIN symbols.

 

[Della]

BibleReader:

Hi, Della. I disagreed that Ryan’s interp was the Church’s. Again, there are several verses corroborating my interp. He dealt with none of those. Let me re-post them here.

Hi, Ryan.

As I suspected, the “corollary verse,” Romans 8:3, actually contains both ideas…

For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Also, you don’t get to ignore 2 Corinthians 5:21…

For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Why ignore the italicized words “he made him to be sin”?

And then here’s Galatians 3:13…

Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming** a curse for us,…

Close enough. And then there’s 1 Peter 2:24…

He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness.

Again, close enough.

I didn’t just make-up the concept of Christ in the form of “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.” It is THE REASON why the Holy Spirit foreshadows Christ Himself with SIN symbols.

And as I wrote, just stringing verses together does not make a cogent argument for anything.

 

[BibleReader]

Della:

And as I wrote, just stringing verses together does not make a cogent argument for anything.

I don’t just “string them together,” Della.

I READ them.

They all say the same thing again and again and again and again.

Therefore, whether you wish to pay attention to them or not – you don’t have to; you are free to ignore the subject matter – they corroborate each other.

I can prove to you that my analysis is correct by “coming in the back door”:

Why is Jesus Christ, the blemishless Lamb, the perfect, sinless Son of God , symbolized by a bronze **serpent **on a pole in Numbers 21???

 

[BibleReader]

Edwin1961:

Are there any books on How to learn Typology? What did you use to study Typology? Or is this only taught in seminaries? If so, then I should ask my brother since he is a priest.

Does CA (or anyone else) have any books that they can recommend?

Though the Old and New Testaments expressly refer to typology, though the CCC expressly refers to typology, though Dei Verbum expressly refers to typology, and though the Catholic semanaries’ Hermaneutics textbooks and courses expressly refer to typology, none of these lay it out for anyone. The Protestant materials are better than the Catholic materials, but a very strange thing happens with the Protestant materials: Bible typology definitely teaches Roman Catholic theology – it’s really amazing! – but Protestant Bible commentators put on the brakes and blind themselves to the Catholic theology in Bible typology, sabotaging it for themselves. So, the Protestant materials oddly commit hara-kiri.

I’ve written about a dozen articles on Bible typology, for two different magazines, but those past articles are not easily accessibly, and my contract prohibits re-publication here.

So, just learn it here.

 

[BibleReader]

So far we’ve discussed

PRINCIPLE #1: Christ is frequently foreshadowed and described in Scripture with SIN symbols.

and

Principle #2: Identification by Juxtaposition, where the Bible frequently lays two things together in a story, Thing A and Thing B, to tell us, "Thing A = Thing B."

Today I’ll lay out Principle #3.

**Principle #3: Much of the Bible is constructed out of Bible Types and Bible Word-Pictures. A Bible “type” is a word the various forms, or analogs, of which always symbolize essentially the same aspect of the salvation process wherever they appear in the Bible text; a Bible “word-picture” is a verse of group of verses in which the action symbolizes an aspect of the salvation process. Commonly, Bible word-pictures are constructed out of, or make use of, Bible types. we call such word pictures “typological word pictures.”

These typological word pictures comprise the “meat” of the sensus plenior, or “fuller sense” level, of the Bible.

In restricting the definition of “types” to words symbolizing aspects of the salvation process in the Bible, I am somewhat arbitrarily rejecting other definitions for “types” found in the literature.

The reason for that is that the use of the word is too haphazard already.

The word “types” is used to refer to both word symbols and word-picture symbols, and both the Bible and its translations confusingly refer to things forteshadowed by types as “antitypes,” and then that word is abused.

Since the term “word-picture,” used mostly by Protestant commentators, is just so expressive and readily comprehended, rather than “pollute” that term by referring to “word-pictures” in the Bible with the word “types,” as the Bible itself frequently does, I refuse to use the confusing word “antitype,” I refuse to refer to word-pictures with the word “types,” I refer to word-pictures only with the term “word-pictures,” and I refer to words that are symbolic as words with the term “types,” as the Bible sometimes does.

A good example of both types and word-pictures is in Acts 27. There we see Paul and company on a “ship” – the Boat Type for “Church” – on rough seas, very much like the ark in the flood, or the Apostles in a boat on wildly-blown Lake Gennesaret (when Jesus walked on water), where the sea they are sailing on is the Abyss Type for “the sea of damnable souls.”

At Acts 27:38, we see the people in the boat throwing wheat overboard to lighten the ship.

Typologically, what is going on?

 

[BibleReader]

Come on…the one question “quiz” ending the previous post is not a difficult question.

 

[blackfish152]

quiz answer(I hope )

First of all, this was a prisoner transport ship.(Perhaps suggesting the Church in bondage) its dangerous to cross the sea,(persecutions etc…) and paul says, we could lose not only the cargo and the ship but also our lives… they didnt listen to paul, ship was adrift…lots of storms… put cargo overborad, on third day soilders with their own hands threw out ships gear. (is this refering to not-true-christians who are in the ship(church), they willing throw away the gifts that the Church gives them to guide them to their destination, in times of testing) The soldiers are trying to leave the ship. Paul says in essence “outside the ship there is no salvation”. He says “Eat and live” reference to the eucharist and john 6?They know they wont die now, so they eat a meal. had a eucharistic meal, for 276 people. (what is the significance of this number I dont know but here is a start, 2= Church, 7=complete, but 6= evil. Not sure how all these tie in)

Now after that they throw the wheat overboard to lighten the load.Now BR is this what you call a -Grain type-? , from my own thinking wheat was the desirable thing(thinking back to wheat and tares)

what does it mean?

1. Does it mean that after they ate the eucharist, they will live and they have no need for mere body food, as they have truely tasted something more satisfying and have no furthur need of wheat.

Only one problem, their is no indication that they were baptised…

1. Later paul and the rest swim for land. and some used pieces of the ship and planks, and all amde it to land. Does this suggest that the wheat symbolised that paul and perhaps other people who now have faith (as God saved them), will have to leave the safety of the ship sometimes, to get to the Land(heaven) that we have perhaps an evangilisating duty, to take too and enter the waters, or that we may suffer like those damned souls in the water on occassion, but unlike them we, are headed to land and safety.

Some have pieces of the ship to help them, in other words we always will have the Church remaining with us in some reconisible form despite what part of the journey towards the land, we are individually on.

can I ask?

Paul refers to the cargo, ship and human life, in this order of importance. what does it suggest? I am curious as Paul would have died a martyrs death(as far as I know, in Rome), so thus he did not hold his life in primary importance, but the ship, the church.

looking forward to your thoughts bible reader, I would be a bit surprised if I have gone “overboard myself” in the detail again.

Ps Quizes are fun!

 

[Edwin1961]

blackfish152 you wrote:
“aul refers to the cargo, ship and human life, in this order of importance. what does it suggest?”

Well, wouldn’t the cargo be the fore-fathers that are the prophets(saints) and they are brought into the ship (enters the Church) and human life is sustained spiritually by the holy ones And the Church.
So when the cargo was 'thrown out" isn’t like people who want to ‘reject’ the prophets and the saints? Yet without them, there wouldn’t have been no Christ to come down, since the people would have rejected them?

It sounds crazy but I wonder if I answered this correctly?

 

[blackfish152]

Hey Edwin,

That sounds just crazy enough to be true in the typological sense.
Nice logic.

m.

 

[Edwin1961]

blackfish152:

Hey Edwin,

That sounds just crazy enough to be true in the typological sense.
Nice logic.

m.

I was looking at it in a 'spiritual sense.

P.S. In high school, someone once told me that I had the ‘wierdest’ sense of logic but it works. So I guess it works for me!

 

[RyanL]

Della:

But, Ryan didn’t ignore 2 Corinthians 5:21, he explained the traditional understanding of the verse within its context which trumps stringing together of verses out of their context or any form of typology. Typology has its place, but it cannot replace proper primary interpretation which is in line with the teachings of the Church.

Della (and BR),

I am currently unsure what the Church teaches. I believe that Christ turning into sin is a logical fallacy. Good cannot become Evil, Right cannot become Wrong, Love cannot become Hate. Were Jesus to become sin, He-who-is-pure-good would become He-who-is-pure-evil, and as an all-powerful deity that would be disasterous. At least this is my thought process, which appears sound.

So what could it mean?

Well, “become sin” is the same Greek shorthand used in the Septuagint for “become a sin offering”. It’s not “ignoring the text”, it’s looking for the meaning the author intended. In light of Leviticus and the way that sin was “placed on” the sacrificial lamb (here: Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world - not IS the sin of the world), I find it much more reasonable to understand this as Christ being a sin-offering (making 1 Peter 2:24 make sense, as well as all of Heb 10 - specifically 10:10 - “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”). If the Church teaches that Christ does not become sin, the Church must be believed and our understanding of typology must be changed to conform to the truth of the Church. If I am wrong (which does happen), we can continue as BR has led.

But, again, I’m not certain, and the CCC is unclear. I have “asked the apologist” on that forum, and am waiting for a response. I will post it when received. In the meantime, we should probably save the topic for another time / thread. I do not want to distract from the lesson plan.

ALSO, I would like to continue with a Typology Lexicon:

**ONE **- Unity
**TWO **- Church
**THREE **- God / Trinity / Harmony
**FOUR **- Everyone
**FIVE **- Christ - also, number of digits on a Hand - Hand Type
**SIX **- 1 less than 7, Imperfection, the number of Man or Sin
**SEVEN **- Perfection / Creation
**EIGHT **- New Creation (Christ raised on the 8th day, making all things new), also 2 x 4 or rather the Church and Everyone, indicating completeness
**NINE **- 3 x 3, Harmony of Harmonies, Fullness
**TEN **- Very much
TWELVE - Family

**Bronze / Brass **- Sin is present and needs to be judged or removed
Gold - God’s presence and glory
**Silver **- The price of salvation, the Redemptive Blood (30 pieces of silver, and Exodus 26:21).

Hill - dwelling place of God
Mountain - Even more significantly the dwelling place of God
Wind / Cloud - Presence of God / Holy Spirit

Darkness - God’s coming judgement
Arm/Hand - Christ
Rock Type - Church
Boat Type - Church
Cloth Type - Religion
Linen Type - Death

The numbers I have seen you speak about are included with your definitions, the numbers I haven’t seen you speak about are the numbers I have been using on my own for about 6 months (derived partially from Chuck Missler, one of the few Protestant typologists) - please correct them as required.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Edwin1961]

bump

 

[BibleReader]

A good example of how one goes about analyzing the Bible typologically, from the Proof the Catholicism is false thread in Apologetics. (The seemingly unrelated name of that thread is a joke.):

23 Lamech said to his wives: “Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; wives of Lamech, listen to my utterance: I have killed a man for wounding me, a boy for bruising me. 24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold, then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.” Genesis 4:23-24.

It is important to “become an ancient” in understanding these verses. “Adah” and “Zillah” are probably not real people. “Adah” means “advancing,” and “Zillah” means “shading” – as in “advancing” or “dawning” day, and “shading,” or “dusk.” Lamech’s wives’ names are therefore probably intended to be apprehended as “Dawn” and “Dusk” – “Light” and “Dark,” “Blonde” and “Brunette.” Lamech married to Adah and Zillah is Archie married to Betty and Veronica.

Gaster, in Myth, Legend and Cusom in the Old Testament, suggests that Lamech shouts his boast to “blonde” and “brunette” because what is intended is something like “all and sundry” or “friends, Romans, countryman!” He’s saying, “Everyone! Listen to me!” The inspired author of Genesis turned an “Everyone! Listen to me!” line into two girls’ names.

When Lamech boasts of his kill, he is functionally beating his hairy chest and saying, “Woo! I sure kicked HIS tail!” It’s a war cry, a boast.

The Footnotes of the Old Testament Committee of the NAB suggest that at the plaintext level, the Final Redactor – the R source, or the guy (or girl?) who pulled this version of Genesis together – was suggesting that mankind was deteriorating. Mankind not only wants God’s kind of vengeance, but his own especially-vicious vengeance, too.

The question is, What is being portrayed at the sensus plenior level? In other words, Why is this verse HERE?

Well, note the reference to Cain. After Cain kills the Christ-picture shepherd, Cain ends up enjoying God’s special protection! … **15 ****Not so!" the LORD said to him. “If anyone kills Cain, Cain shall be avenged sevenfold.” So the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest anyone should kill him at sight. Genesis 4:15. **… Lamech is saying, “Sheesh! God strikes back sevenfold at those who try to kill Cain. Heck, I got to kill someone for bruising me! I, Lamech, get seventy-seven fold vengeance!”

Now note who Lamech is married to – “two” women, Dawn and Dusk. The Woman Type = “mankind in need of salvation.” The Two Type = “Church.” Their names, Dawn and Dusk, suggest that these symbolize Christians in trhe Church. Dusk is when Christ died. Resurrection is when He rose. We see this use of Dusk and Dawn elsewhere in the Bible to refer to Christ – for example, Exodus 16:13-14: God feeds the people with quail in the evening, and manna in the morning. Food made of “Christ”!

So, we have a typological word picture here telling us that, just as the killing of Christ generated “protection,” those in the Church will enjoy that same protection in spades!