Bible unreliable?

[Chabambou]

I have a friend who claims to be open minded. In that case i mean he questions a lot of things, which is good in itself. However he lacks trust and faith. He’s the kind of person who says he will believe something if he himself finds the evidence etc etc…you know where it leads lol

One of his biggest problems with religion is that he thinks it’s based on moral codes from a book written thousands of years ago by men who we don’t know all too well, and that they could manipulate us.
I argued for the witness of the apostles (their martyrdom based on their witness to the resurrection), but he replied that anyone these days can die for something they believe in.
He has a big disconnect with trust, especially about something in the past like the reliability of the historical accounts of the bible.

Now I know I can’t change his mind on things but I hope what I say helps him to some effect.
Does anyone have a suggestion or a way to back up the reliability of the Bible against his claims?

 

[Zaccheus]

Your friend says anyone today can die for something they believe in. But why did the Apostles believe in Christ?
The Apostles believed Christ had risen from the dead. But they were there. Wouldn’t they know what happened?
Your friend says he’ll believe what he sees. The Apostles were ready to die for Christ because they believed what they saw. They saw Christ murdered on the cross, buried in the tomb, and then they saw Him return to life.

 

[Chabambou]

I agree. But for some reason he thinks the stories were transmitted like Chinese whispers where facts can get manipulated or biased.

 

[HarryStotle]

Well, the whole idea of Chinese Whispers is to restrict the manner in which the information is transmitted so as to pretty much guarantee that it gets mangled. The rules include all kinds of limitations like repeat only once, must be whispered, no questioning or request for clarification, time limits, etc. Perhaps your friend can show that such rules were in effect when the Christian message was being initially passed down to the successors of the Apostles.

The way that the Gospels and the Christian message were passed down were nothing like that. The entire community worked very hard to preserve and pass on the veracity of what they knew.

That would be like opening the rules of Chinese Whispers to allow all kinds of checking and safeguarding to preserve the message intact to guarantee that the last person hears exactly what the first person said. Rules like: you must say the message loud and clear, repeat it as often as necessary, let all players listen and correct the understanding of the person receiving it, have a written copy available so the last person hearing the message can compare what he thinks he heard to what was written, etc. That doesn’t sound at all like the rules of Chinese Whispers, does it? Exactly the opposite, actually.

You might want to read Richard Bauckham’s Jesus and the Eyewitnesses to get a clear grasp of how carefully the early Church preserved the narrative.

 

[De_Maria]

I agree. But for some reason he thinks the stories were transmitted like Chinese whispers where facts can get manipulated or biased.

We can work with that.

Ask him this question. It’s lengthy, but it makes a point.

There’s a game called the telephone or rumor game, where one person whispers to another person and you go around the room doing that. By the end, the original whisper does not even vaguely resemble the last one.

So, let’s modify the game. Tell the first person to whisper to the second, but hand him a written version of the message. Tell him to hand the written message to the next and tell him you’ll be around to answer anyone’s questions as their meaning. Now, go around the room.

Which do you think will be accurately transmitted to the end?

Do you see that the second version is the Catholic Doctrine of the three legged stood, Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture?

What do you think?

 

[De_Maria]

…
Now I know I can’t change his mind on things but I hope what I say helps him to some effect.
Does anyone have a suggestion or a way to back up the reliability of the Bible against his claims?

I’m not really a bible based person. I’m faith based and my faith, the Catholic Faith, was passed down by the Church in a methodology which is described as a three legged stool. Sacred Tradition and Scripture as explained by the Magisterium.

As for faith and trust, I don’t know how to instill that in anyone. Prayer is probably what is most needed.

 

[StJoseph8]

You mentioned that he thinks religion is based on moral codes from books like the Bible that are untrustworthy. You might want to start talking to him philosophically about morality. Maybe with that, he can see, at least from the Catholic standpoint, that Catholicism not only bases morality on Sacred Scripture, but also from philosophical deductions. A great book for this would be “Right and Reason” by Austin Fagothy.

 

[pianistclare]

Scripture is part of the picture.
Some are Sacred TRadition.
SOme if the Hierarchy and leadership of the Church, the Popes, the presbyters, the Bishops. After all, Jesus told Peter he had the keys to the Kingdom.
2 thousand years of theologians and Saints writing and learning.
The martyrs.
THe Catholics Shuch has ALL of this.
People who read the Bible cover to cover and don’t understand what any of it means but can only read it literally and not in any context of history or faith, are never going to understand faith.
It’s ALL of the above, together in concert, and reveal by Jesus Christ Himself, a historical figure who literally rose from the DEAD!
We don’t stand on the BIble alone.

It rained on the earth in Biblical times. It rains today.
Why should we believe there is such a thing as rain?

 

[Chabambou]

Thanks for the replies. They all make sense and i agree with them. But knowing him, he might shun off the arguments for one reason or another. I think the problem is that he finds faith to be blind, even though I told him that wasn’t the case.
He had a sort of interest when i mentioned about a eucharistic miracle but when i tied it to John chapter 6 he got turned off. I just find it disheartening to hear the lack of trust in the faith. But I think de_maria has pinned down what I believe is the solution- It’s prayer. I would appreciate it if you pray for him

 

[upant]

Your friend says anyone today can die for something they believe in. But why did the Apostles believe in Christ?
The Apostles believed Christ had risen from the dead. But they were there. Wouldn’t they know what happened?
Your friend says he’ll believe what he sees. The Apostles were ready to die for Christ because they believed what they saw. They saw Christ murdered on the cross, buried in the tomb, and then they saw Him return to life.

i don’t believe this argument holds water because the Muslim can claim the same thing.

In the bible Jesus died. in the Koran an impostor died. these both can’t be correct but yet both core supporters claim they believe because of testimony.

which one is wrong?

 

[pianistclare]

I will pray for him.

The fact is, if he himself is unwilling to have a relationship with Christ, no amount of arguing will do.
Somewhere, he got this notion in his heart that if he submits to GOD…then he will lose something within himself. What? Liberty? God has forgiven us. No more “fun”? God has given us the Commandments to ensure that our actions are always holy, happy, just. Too hard? Well, nobody said life wouldn’t be hard. But if one is looking for the TOOLS to navigate…it’s all right there. Just ask. Welcome arms. Don’t need anyone? I think everyone needs belief.
Pray. Pray for his soul, and be there smiling when he comes around. Which might not be for a very long time. Sometimes I think that so long as we make ourselves available to non-believers, at least they will have an acquaintance to help them on the path.

It’s kind of like when people ask: “Hey, do you know someone who can recommend a good mechanic?”
Same deal. God bless you.

 

[Zaccheus]

Zaccheus:

Your friend says anyone today can die for something they believe in. But why did the Apostles believe in Christ?
The Apostles believed Christ had risen from the dead. But they were there. Wouldn’t they know what happened?
Your friend says he’ll believe what he sees. The Apostles were ready to die for Christ because they believed what they saw. They saw Christ murdered on the cross, buried in the tomb, and then they saw Him return to life.

i don’t believe this argument holds water because the Muslim can claim the same thing.

In the bible Jesus died. in the Koran an impostor died. these both can’t be correct but yet both core supporters claim they believe because of testimony.

which one is wrong?

Perhaps I was not clear. I meant the Apostles themselves and the other first-generation believers.
One may argue that third or forth generation believes died for a lie because they had been deceived into believing it.
But if Christ didn’t rise then the Apostles themselves must have lied when they claimed He did. Would a liar go to martyrdom for his own lie?

Did Mohammed let himself be martyred in support of the words of the Koran?

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

There’s nothing you can do.

What you have described is the quintessential skeptic. He sets the rules. he sets the parameters. He sets the “proofs.”

Everyone else must conform to his standards (express his thoughts exactly) or be found wanting.

Let’s take his example:

but he replied that anyone these days can die for something they believe in.

Notice that anyone can die for something they believe in–not that Believers die for righteousness’ sake.

The problem with his premise is that most people, at all times, are mostly willing to kill rather than die for what they believe in.

Jesus, as the Leader of His Church died for the Church. How many leaders die for their followers? Isn’t it the truth that most leaders send others to die for them and the “cause” rather then they themselves die for their followers and their cause?

…moral codes; do these codes become obsolete because time progresses?:

’Love God Above all and your neighbor as yourself.'

If we adhere to these codes humanity would be better for it. This is the reality that he dismisses.

You could try to explain to him that the Bible is not a historical or scientific book; its Teachings is not measured by such means. However, the Bible is full of facts that have been proven by both history and science…

Consider God’s Promise to Abram. He changes his name to Abraham as He Promises that He will make him the father of many nations… so numerous would his descendants be that they would be like the stars in the sky and the sand on the shore… clearly by reading this descriptive abundance one could fault it because of the seeming unequal comparison… ok sand… in the millions and billions but stars… well the Hubble telescope went up and science discovered that there are not thousands of stars or millions but in the millions of millions of stars–until the 1990’s we did not understand the scope of the Universe as massively as we do now… the Bible had placed it in perspective over thousands of years before man was able to educate himself with the “in your face” facts.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

Faith is a supernatural gift, which cannot be found by our efforts.

We may try to convince others of the truths of our religion, but choices to accept or not exist.

_I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. Therefore, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who causes the growth. (1 Cor. 3:6-7 NAB)

 

[DebCWil]

The Apostles were cowards. They ran away when the going got tough, when the person with whom they had spent 3 years with was arrested.
What changed after the Resurrection that gave these men the courage to die for the man they once abandoned? Pentecost is the Birth of the Christian Church.
It is at Pentecost that the Apostles received the Power of the Holy Spirit. Our Lord had promised they would not be abandoned. Now God dwelled within each of them. What they had known intellectually before about the divinity of Christ, they now knew with an unshakable certainty. With the Power of the Holy Spirit, they went forward to preach to the whole world. Thomas went as far as India.

The best thing that you can do as a friend is to continue to be a friend. Pray for that God give your friend the gift of faith. There were eyewitnesses to the Risen Lord. That tangible reality may be all he needs. Whatever he needs to comes to Faith is in God’s hands.

 

[wiggbuggie1]

you can also add fulfilled prophecy and scripture. The bible itself is pretty remarkable! Considering from genesis to the last book revelation is written by dozens of authors oral tradition passed down over the span of hundreds of years yet it is a unified work and tells the story of God his people and redemption.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Wiggbuggie!

It is the Revelation of the Holy Spirit that makes this happen: the Heavenly battle touched upon in Genesis 3:15, is expanded upon in Apocalypse (Revelation) 12, it is consummated at the Cross, and lived through the Church Militant (New Covenant Writings and Oral Teachings) till the Parousia!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[hymin]

A soul does not come to the truth with pride. (cf. Ps 138:6, Prov 3:34, Prov 29:23, Mt 23:12, Lk 1:52, Jas 4:6, 1 Pet 5:5). We have to be cast down from our idols. (cf. 1 Cor 10:12, Mt 25:29, 13:12) We have to interiorly recognize our dungheap of sin. (cf. 1 Sam 2:8, Ps 113:7) Face to face with sin - the soul cries for a savior. “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to Myself.” (Jn 12:31) Ave crux, spes unica meaning “O hail the cross our only hope”. “we are saved by hope” (Rom 8:24). All I would suggest is do not see him too often lest you put a stumbling block in his way. “Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way.” (Rom 14:13)

 

[ConsistantlyBaffled]

So, let’s modify the game. Tell the first person to whisper to the second, but hand him a written version of the message. Tell him to hand the written message to the next and tell him you’ll be around to answer anyone’s questions as their meaning. Now, go around the room.

It’s more like giving the paper to someone, have them write it down, then give that paper to the next person, who writes it down, who gives that paper to the next person.

the telephone game works with writing too, just tends to take a bit longer. they didnt have computers or typewriters. when someone makes a typo or their handwriting was smudged, that word is forever altered in every copy. peter isnt here to explain what he meant. we have copies of copies of copies of copies.

 

[po18guy]

Self-proclaimed “free thinkers” and those with “open minds” are some of the most opinionated and closed-minded individuals you will ever know. Many of them proclaim the bible to be unreliable as they are too intellectually lazy to investigate. Not all, obviously, only those who challenge us!

Words cannot - will not - convince anyone of anything, exceptt to buy a used car. Rather, I think it better to show them by your joy-filled life and example that what you believe makes a difference. Oh, when you are not praying for that friend, that is.