Bible verses for purgatory

[evidence]

Although the bible is not the sole authority for the belief in purgatory (the bible’s authority rests on the authority of the Catholic Church, which declared which books made up the bible just before 400 AD) here are some biblical passages that support purgatory:

prayers for the dead are seen as good - 2Tm 1:16-18, 2 Mc 12:44-46, 2 Sam 1:12
a place after death other than heaven or hell is refered to, sometimes as a place of purification - 1 Pt 3:18-20, 4:6, 1 Cor 3:15, Mt 12:32 + 36, 5:26, 2 Cor 12:2-4
nothing unclean - no impurity(we are all sinful) will enter heaven - Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14+23, Jam 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1Jn 5:16-17
Punishment remains after sin is forgiven (purification as opposed to condemnation) - 2 Sam 12:13-14, Num 14:18-23, Ps 99:8

Purgatory is implicit in the bible, just like the Trinity,and the Incarmation. if I could paraphrase the protestant C.S. Lewis - Purgatory makes sense…most of us are not holy enough to get to heaven, but not evil enough to be in hell. there must be a place where our sinful tendencies are cleansed before we enter heaven.
if one honestly (without prejudging) looks at the doctrine from these verses and from the catechism (CCC 1030-1032 and 1472-1474) then the existence of puragtory must at least be a possibility. those who flatly deny it would be unbiblical.

 

[Cachonga]

evidence:

Although the bible is not the sole authority for the belief in purgatory (the bible’s authority rests on the authority of the Catholic Church, which declared which books made up the bible just before 400 AD) here are some biblical passages that support purgatory:

Peter recognized that Paul’s epistles were scripture (see 2 Peter 3:15-16), and it didn’t take 400 years for the Church to know it. It did take 400 years for fallible men to acknowledge, through the Holy Spirit, which books God had authored (since the topic is purgatory, I will end this portion here and save it for another thread).

evidence:

prayers for the dead are seen as good - 2Tm 1:16-18, 2 Mc 12:44-46, 2 Sam 1:12

I don’t think these verses make your point. There is no indication that Paul was praying for someone who was dead (2 Tim 1:16-18), and those killed in 2 Mac were killed by God because of their idolatry (see verse 40). In 2 Sam 1:12, David mourns for those who died. Do you think mourning is the same as praying for the dead? Do you think it’s acceptable to God to pray for those He killed for their sins (if so, why not pray for Hitler?)?

evidence:

a place after death other than heaven or hell is refered to, sometimes as a place of purification - 1 Pt 3:18-20, 4:6, 1 Cor 3:15, Mt 12:32 + 36, 5:26, 2 Cor 12:2-4

I don’t find that in any of the verses listed.
1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6 speaks of Jesus preaching to those in prison while His body was buried. Why would this be thought of as anything other than Hell? Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31)? There were 2 places, Hell (where the rich man was) and Abraham’s Bosom. There was also a great chasm between the two places so no one could cross from one side to the other. Since Hell is going to be cast into the lake of fire (after it’s emptied out and everyone in it is judged), it seems obvious that this is the prison spoke on in these verses.

1 Cor 3:15 shows that our WORKS will be judged (verse 13 reads, “Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.” DR emphasis added). There is absolutely no reference to temporal punishment for sins.

Matt 12:32 + 36 speaks of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and how we will give an account of every idle word we speak when we stand before our Judge (Jesus Christ). How is this evidence for purgatory?

Matt 5:26 is the last verse in a parable, the point of which is that we need to forgive each other the minor transgressions because God has forgiven us from ALL of our transgressions against Him. To use this verse to support the idea of purgatory is to take it out of context.

2 Cor 12:2-4 is Paul describing his being “caught up to the third heaven” (otherwise known as Paradise). Are you saying that Paradise is the same as purgatory?

evidence:

nothing unclean - no impurity(we are all sinful) will enter heaven - Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14+23, Jam 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1Jn 5:16-17

This is true, however, you seem to be ignoring the fact that “for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Cor 5:21 YLT emphasis added). It’s clear from this, and other verses, that God has taken care of our “impurities”.

evidence:

Punishment remains after sin is forgiven (purification as opposed to condemnation) - 2 Sam 12:13-14, Num 14:18-23, Ps 99:8

2 Sam 12:13-14 was not a punishment, but was “because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme”. God was not punishing David, but removing a potential source of blasphemy against Himself.

Num 14:18-23 is a very strange form of “purification” when you consider the men God spoke of died in the wilderness and never entered into the promised land. How is this like purgatory?

Ps 99:8 sounds similar to Num 14:18-23. Again, how is this like purgatory?

evidence:

Purgatory is implicit in the bible, just like the Trinity,and the Incarmation. if I could paraphrase the protestant C.S. Lewis - Purgatory makes sense…most of us are not holy enough to get to heaven, but not evil enough to be in hell. there must be a place where our sinful tendencies are cleansed before we enter heaven.
if one honestly (without prejudging) looks at the doctrine from these verses and from the catechism (CCC 1030-1032 and 1472-1474) then the existence of puragtory must at least be a possibility. those who flatly deny it would be unbiblical.

I strongly disagree! The doctrine of the Trinity and Incarnation are crystal clear in scripture! The doctrine of purgatory, on the other hand, is found nowhere in the scriptures. The verses cited above, when taken out of context, and added to some imagined “tradition” (as evidence points out with “and from the catechism”), it COULD be considered a possibility. Of course, this same type of “exegesis” could be used to promote almost any doctrine (such as the assumption of Mary), regardless of what is clearly written in Scripture. To deny the doctrine of purgatory is not unbiblical!

 

[dpgreen]

Peter recognized that Paul’s epistles were scripture (see 2 Peter 3:15-16), and it didn’t take 400 years for the Church to know it.

Yes, Peter did recognise Paul’s writings as authoritative. The problem is that Paul wrote letters that are NOT in the NT canon. So we cannot know from reading Peter which letters he was possibly talking about.

1 Cor 3:15 shows that our WORKS will be judged (verse 13 reads, “Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.” DR emphasis added). There is absolutely no reference to temporal punishment for sins.

It is helpful to read beyond verse 14. In verse 15 we see that the MAN not the work suffers loss, although he is still saved, but only as through fire.

Matt 5:26 is the last verse in a parable, the point of which is that we need to forgive each other the minor transgressions because God has forgiven us from ALL of our transgressions against Him. To use this verse to support the idea of purgatory is to take it out of context.

If God has forgive us ALL our transgressions (I’m supposing you are suggesting past, present and future sins), then why does 1 John 5:16 tell us that there are some sins that we should pray for. Some sin leads to death (mortal). John 20:21-23 also tells us that sins must be confessed. Jesus is not talking to pagans, He is talking to ones who already believed in Him. That confession must be heard so that the sin can either be retained or forgiven (v23).

If God has taken care of our impurities then why do we still suffer from the effects of sin? Seems like God hasn’t taken care of them enough.

Maccabbees is a strong witness for prayers for the dead. Even though Protestants dismiss this book, it still provides evidence as to how the Jews practiced their faith. We must remember also that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint which contained the books of Maccabbees.

 

[Robbinson]

Yes, Peter did recognise Paul’s writings as authoritative. The problem is that Paul wrote letters that are NOT in the NT canon. So we cannot know from reading Peter which letters he was possibly talking about.

It is helpful to read beyond verse 14. In verse 15 we see that the MAN not the work suffers loss, although he is still saved, but only as through fire.

If God has forgive us ALL our transgressions (I’m supposing you are suggesting past, present and future sins), then why does 1 John 5:16 tell us that there are some sins that we should pray for. Some sin leads to death (mortal). John 20:21-23 also tells us that sins must be confessed. Jesus is not talking to pagans, He is talking to ones who already believed in Him. That confession must be heard so that the sin can either be retained or forgiven (v23).

If God has taken care of our impurities then why do we still suffer from the effects of sin? Seems like God hasn’t taken care of them enough.

Maccabbees is a strong witness for prayers for the dead. Even though Protestants dismiss this book, it still provides evidence as to how the Jews practiced their faith. We must remember also that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint which contained the books of Maccabbees.

Great post - yes, Jews pray for the dead and for a purification of their souls prior to entering heaving (11 months of the Kaddish for this reason after death).

I believe the concept of purgatory (a place or perhaps a time of purification) is scriptural. Admittedly, the “word” isn’t used (nor is “trinity”) and the concept appears in verses that could be interpreted differently. But that is true of many verses of scripture and thus why there are 30,000 plus protestant denominations (each interpretating the same verses “differently”).

To me, the “larger story” of scripture and the NT epistles in particular, shows us that justification is an ongoing process (not a one time moment) and that we must persevere. We continue to sin even after coming to faith and scripture talks about the ways to obtain forgiveness (so while we are cleansed at baptism through Christ’s sacrifice, we sin thereafter and need forgiveness through confession, Lord’s supper and reptentance). It makes sense that at death, any remaining sin will be purified before facing God and that is the idea of purgatory. Its not a question of salvation (all there - place or time) are saved, but of purification -. Scripture talks of our works being refined as in fire, though we are saved.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[evidence]

It did take 400 years for fallible men to acknowledge, through the Holy Spirit,…

If they were guided by the spirit, then they were infallible, and you must concede that they had the authority to do such a thing. If they weren’t, then what is your evidence that they were guided by the spirit in that one instance in church history but not in any others.
If they were fallible, then there would be no problem with me or any one else taking revelation, 2 Peter , and Hebrews out of the bible and adding in the shepard of hermas, and the letter of barnabas since they were all disputed for the first 300 years as belonging to the canon.
If the bible is so self-explanatory, then why the 30,000 denominations, each following their own “tradition”?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I rather like Psalm 118:18-21

18 The LORD has chastened me sorely, but he has not given me over to death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness, that I may enter through them and give thanks to the LORD. 20 This is the gate of the LORD; the righteous shall enter through it. 21 I thank thee that thou hast answered me and hast become my salvation.

It seems to me that the gate is the entrance to Heaven and the psalmist is portraying a limited punishment before one enters Heaven.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Another passage of interest is Matthew 5:25-26

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Some have thought this refers to earthly court and prison. However the context of the rest of the chapter on sin seems to mitigate against such an interpretation. It seems clear that it must refer to a judgment regarding ones sins.

 

[COPLAND_3]

litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Purgatory

 

[Ally_of_Christ]

When I read this and St. Leonard’s sermon “The feness of the saved,” it almost seems as if Purgatory is hard to attain. I was always under the impression that most Catholics and most people in general went to Purgatory when they died, but now I see that that opinion is not true, and I am depressed because very few people even get to Purgatory. gospa.org/pl/pages/evangelization/catholic_truth/few_saved.html?ra=1

 

[Ally_of_Christ]

If literally 99.98% of people go to Hell, as stated by saints, then what is purgatory for really? 99.98% go straight to Hell, and out of 100% of Huamnity, 99.98% are not even worthy of Purgatory? I’m just confused because I thought Purgatory was the destination for the majority of people when they died. I always thought not everyone deserved etrnal punishment, but most didn’t deserve to go directly to Heaven either.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

If literally 99.98% of people go to Hell, as stated by saints, then what is purgatory for really? 99.98% go straight to Hell, and out of 100% of Humanity, 99.98% are not even worthy of Purgatory? I’m just confused because I thought Purgatory was the destination for the majority of people when they died. I always thought not everyone deserved eternal punishment, but most didn’t deserve to go directly to Heaven either.

I find it troubling to think that 99.98% of God’s creation is defective. I rather expect a better design from Him. My personal thought is that He should have a better than 50% success rate. On the other hand 1/3 of the angels failed the test. Humans are probably not going to do better. 30-50% loss would seem reasonable. [Strictly my :twocents:. I suspect He doesn’t care what I think reasonable. ]

I recall from some apparition ]don’t remember which one or even if it is an approved one] Mary said that most go to Purgatory, many go to Hell, and a few straight to Heaven. That seems reasonable.

 

[Kalos]

Although the bible is not the sole authority for the belief in purgatory (the bible’s authority rests on the authority of the Catholic Church, which declared which books made up the bible just before 400 AD) here are some biblical passages that support purgatory:

prayers for the dead are seen as good - 2Tm 1:16-18, 2 Mc 12:44-46, 2 Sam 1:12
a place after death other than heaven or hell is refered to, sometimes as a place of purification - 1 Pt 3:18-20, 4:6, 1 Cor 3:15, Mt 12:32 + 36, 5:26, 2 Cor 12:2-4
nothing unclean - no impurity(we are all sinful) will enter heaven - Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14+23, Jam 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1Jn 5:16-17
Punishment remains after sin is forgiven (purification as opposed to condemnation) - 2 Sam 12:13-14, Num 14:18-23, Ps 99:8

Purgatory is implicit in the bible, just like the Trinity,and the Incarmation. if I could paraphrase the protestant C.S. Lewis - Purgatory makes sense…most of us are not holy enough to get to heaven, but not evil enough to be in hell. there must be a place where our sinful tendencies are cleansed before we enter heaven.
if one honestly (without prejudging) looks at the doctrine from these verses and from the catechism (CCC 1030-1032 and 1472-1474) then the existence of puragtory must at least be a possibility. those who flatly deny it would be unbiblical.

Anyone which thinketh that he is not worthy of hell knows nothing of the holiness of God.
Anyone who says that even the vilest sinner who repents cannot be taken from the guttermost to the uttermost by the grace of God and made perfectly clean knows nothing of the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus.

Purgatory serves nothing but the pride of man. It is not of grace. It is rather a direct assalt on Grace and an insult to the work of the Savior. It is a question of WHO IS JESUS? Is He only a part-way savior? Is He not the author AND finisher of our faith? If purgatory is your hope of heaven then Jude 24 is a false promise.

If anyone is in Christ he is an heir, and if an heir then he must have all the rights and priveleges of the patriarch. Does Christ not have the right to enter heaven? Then that same right belongs to the one who is in Him by faith. Purgatory is not his inheritance. If you do not believe this then learn from the parable of the Prodigal Son. Must he perform acts of penance to have full acceptance back into the father’s house? Can any Catholic answer?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Although the bible is not the sole authority for the belief in purgatory (the bible’s authority rests on the authority of the Catholic Church, which declared which books made up the bible just before 400 AD) here are some biblical passages that support purgatory:

prayers for the dead are seen as good - 2Tm 1:16-18, 2 Mc 12:44-46, 2 Sam 1:12
a place after death other than heaven or hell is refered to, sometimes as a place of purification - 1 Pt 3:18-20, 4:6, 1 Cor 3:15, Mt 12:32 + 36, 5:26, 2 Cor 12:2-4
nothing unclean - no impurity(we are all sinful) will enter heaven - Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14+23, Jam 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1Jn 5:16-17
Punishment remains after sin is forgiven (purification as opposed to condemnation) - 2 Sam 12:13-14, Num 14:18-23, Ps 99:8

Purgatory is implicit in the bible, just like the Trinity,and the Incarmation. if I could paraphrase the protestant C.S. Lewis - Purgatory makes sense…most of us are not holy enough to get to heaven, but not evil enough to be in hell. there must be a place where our sinful tendencies are cleansed before we enter heaven.
if one honestly (without prejudging) looks at the doctrine from these verses and from the catechism (CCC 1030-1032 and 1472-1474) then the existence of puragtory must at least be a possibility. those who flatly deny it would be unbiblical.

The Doctrine of Purgatory Proved from Scripture

2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

---

Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

---

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

---

Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Obviously, there is no sin to forgive in heaven, and sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and judgment is permanent. Therefore, the “world to come” where sin can still be forgiven must be a third, distinct place.

Luke 12:42-48
The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

Notice that there are not two but three categories of servants in this parable: 1) the “wise and faithful manager” who is rewarded (heaven); 2) the unfaithful servant who knows his master’s will but does not do it and who is “cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers (hell)l; and 3) the one “who does not know and does things deserving punishment.” This final servant is beaten with “few blows” (purgatory).

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

 

[dpgreen]

Dear Kalos

Purgatory is the work of Christ. It is the application of His sacrifice applied to us. If, like Paul tells us in Corinthians, we will suffer loss when we are judged, yet still saved, then it is inconceivable for us to go to Heaven because nothing unclean can enter. There is no ‘loss’ in Heaven. It is inconceivable for the verse to apply to Hell because the verse tells us that we are still saved. You can call it anything you like, but it is quite obvious that some sort of purification takes place after death.

To draw an analogy: if we come to visit someone and we have mud on our shoes, we clean them or take them off before we enter. Same applies with Heaven.

I don’t think you can deny the scripture passages provided, particularly in light of the fact that Jesus, a Jew, would have believed in a place of purging. Nowhere does He deny its existence.

Matt 12:32 - this verse speaks of the fact that there is some sin that will be forgiven in the age to come.

1 Peter 4:6 - the gospel was preached to the dead. Now there is absolutely no use preaching to people in hell - there aint no getting out of there. So, if Jesus preached to the dead they must have been somewhere else because Heaven was not yet opened.

2 Tim 1:16-18 -Paul is asking God to grant mercy to someone who is dead.

Please enlighten me as to how you explain some of these scripture verses, particularly 1 Cor 3:14-15.

 

[Cachonga]

dpgreen:

It is helpful to read beyond verse 14. In verse 15 we see that the MAN not the work suffers loss, although he is still saved, but only as through fire.

Sure, AFTER his WORKS are burned up! Where does it say the MAN went through the fire? Notice that the others whose works are not burned up (even though they went through the same fire as the works that were burned up) receive a reward.

dpgreen:

If God has forgive us ALL our transgressions (I’m supposing you are suggesting past, present and future sins), then why does 1 John 5:16 tell us that there are some sins that we should pray for. Some sin leads to death (mortal). John 20:21-23 also tells us that sins must be confessed. Jesus is not talking to pagans, He is talking to ones who already believed in Him. That confession must be heard so that the sin can either be retained or forgiven (v23).

Matt 5:26 is the last verse of a parable. What is the lesson of the parable?

dpgreen:

If God has taken care of our impurities then why do we still suffer from the effects of sin? Seems like God hasn’t taken care of them enough.

Sounds like you’re suggesting that Jesus lied when he said “It is finished.” (John 19:30)

dpgreen:

Maccabbees is a strong witness for prayers for the dead. Even though Protestants dismiss this book, it still provides evidence as to how the Jews practiced their faith. We must remember also that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint which contained the books of Maccabbees.

Aside from the question of canonicity (which is not the topic of this thread), there is still the problem of verse 40 (“Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.” 2 Mac 12:40 emphasis added). I admit I am no expert, but I don’t think that idolatry can be forgiven under the law (if I’m wrong, please provide the OT reference). If this sin cannot be forgiven under the law, then of what value was the sacrifice offered for them? For that matter, can anyone give any OT reference to making a sin offering for someone who has died?

Robbinson:

I believe the concept of purgatory (a place or perhaps a time of purification) is scriptural. Admittedly, the “word” isn’t used (nor is “trinity”) and the concept appears in verses that could be interpreted differently. But that is true of many verses of scripture and thus why there are 30,000 plus protestant denominations (each interpretating the same verses “differently”).

I would like to see what scriptures you think teaches this doctrine. So far, I haven’t seen anything in the verses presented that convinces me.

In regard to the “30,000 plus protestant denominations”, I have addressed this before in other threads. I would like to know what your source is for this claim! I have heard it from many RC apologists, and the only reference I’ve ever heard of is the World Christian Encyclopedia. If this is your source, then I strongly suggest you check it out carefully. This particular source shows over 33,000 “Christian” denominations (including several Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness denominations, etc…, plus over 2/3rds are “non-denominational). Among the 33,000+ denominations you will find 781 Orthodox Catholic denominations, and 242 Roman Catholic denominations. Seems to me that either your source counts denominations in a way that you would not accept for your own Church, or your Church is more fragmented than you think! Add to that the fact that not all of these denominations even try to pretend that they rely on Sola Scripture, and your assertion appears to fall flat (unless you have a different source, which I would love to check out, if true). However, if your source is the World Christian Encyclopedia, then I suggest you either stop spreading the lie of “33,000+ ‘protestant’ denominations”, or explain which of the 242 Roman Catholic denominations (or 781 Orthodox Catholic denominations) is the “one true Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”!

<continued…>

 

[Cachonga]

evidence:

If they were guided by the spirit, then they were infallible, and you must concede that they had the authority to do such a thing. If they weren’t, then what is your evidence that they were guided by the spirit in that one instance in church history but not in any others.
If they were fallible, then there would be no problem with me or any one else taking revelation, 2 Peter , and Hebrews out of the bible and adding in the shepard of hermas, and the letter of barnabas since they were all disputed for the first 300 years as belonging to the canon.
If the bible is so self-explanatory, then why the 30,000 denominations, each following their own “tradition”?

They were as infallible as the Jewish leadership which set the OT canon (though not formalized like the NT canon). Every time Jesus (or any of the Apostles) said “It is written…”, the listeners knew what scripture was being referred to. As an example of their “fallibility”, they accepted the Letter of Paul to the Laodiceans” as canon (see here), but the Council of Florence (1439-43) removed it. As the canon is not the topic of this thread, I will end my comments on the subject here.

Please read my comments above in regard to the “33,000 denominations” argument!
Joe Kelley:

I rather like Psalm 118:18-21
<snippette…>
It seems to me that the gate is the entrance to Heaven and the psalmist is portraying a limited punishment before one enters Heaven.

So, has the Church ever used this to point to purgatory, or are you just using private interpretation?

COPLAND 3 – Your link only gives 2 “Biblical” sources. As I pointed out in my first post, the people in 2 Maccabees were killed by God because of idolatry (see verse 40), which is a mortal sin, so the sacrifice on their behalf was a nice gesture, but totally useless to the men who died (unless you believe that it’s possible to get someone out of hell by making sacrifices (like offering a mass, maybe?) for them? I find it interesting that in the story of Lazarus and the rich man(Luke 16:19-31) that Abraham didn’t tell the rich man that if his brothers would make a sin offering for him, then he could come over and be with Lazarus. Instead, he pointed out that there was a great chasm between them so that none could cross from one side to the other. BTW – this is a true story, not a parable!

The other reference given is 1 Cor 3:12-15, which, again, I addressed in my first post (as well as earlier in this post).

Ally of Christ –God usually ends up saving a “remnant” when Israel is punished (He does not allow them to be utterly destroyed). I would be very hesitant to put a % on how many this would be, and I would be very leary of anyone that would do that. I believe what is important is that we strive for Heaven (not purgatory), keeping our eyes on Christ and trusting in Him!

<continued…>

 

[Cachonga]

Randy Carson:

Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

Sure, and many people also believed the Corban rule was from God, but Jesus proved that to be a tradition of men by the Scriptures. I don’t recall any mention of this practice anywhere in the New Testament. Also, if it was possible under the OT to make a sin offering for someone who died in mortal sin and expect God to forgive them, then in what way is it possible, under the New covenant, to get God to forgive someone who died in mortal sin? Please be sure to include the scripture verse to support your claim.
Randy Carson:

Matthew 12:32
<snippette…>
Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Obviously, there is no sin to forgive in heaven, and sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and judgment is permanent. Therefore, the “world to come” where sin can still be forgiven must be a third, distinct place.

How can it be forgiven if I pay for it myself (in purgatory)? Perhaps the message here isn’t that there is another place between heaven and hell (wouldn’t that be Earth?), but to show just how deadly it is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?
Randy Carson:

Luke 12:42-48
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Notice that there are not two but three categories of servants in this parable: 1) the “wise and faithful manager” who is rewarded (heaven); 2) the unfaithful servant who knows his master’s will but does not do it and who is “cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers (hell)l; and 3) the one “who does not know and does things deserving punishment.” This final servant is beaten with “few blows” (purgatory).

So just as there are degrees of reward in heaven (as shown from 1 Cor 3:1-15), there are also degrees of punishment in hell (unless you think St grandma will receive the same reward in heaven as St Paul, or Joe Apostate will receive the same punishment as Judas Iscariot).
Randy Carson:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
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Already covered!
Randy Carson:

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Excuse me, but I thought purgatory was supposed to be a place of purification, not trying (or proving) one’s faith. 1 Peter 1:6-7 reads, “Wherein you shall greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations: That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ:” (DR emphasis added). When read in context (a strange concept for some, to be sure) it should be obvious that we are going through trials in this life (now), so that our faith may be found (or proved) genuine. This also makes it clear that our faith is “much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire”. This is not an indication of purgatory, but a comparison of our faith with gold.

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[Randy_Carson]

Sure, AFTER his WORKS are burned up! Where does it say the MAN went through the fire?

“If it [his work] is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”

Who or what is escaping through the flames?

The man.

 

[Cachonga]

dpgreen:

Purgatory is the work of Christ. It is the application of His sacrifice applied to us. If, like Paul tells us in Corinthians, we will suffer loss when we are judged, yet still saved, then it is inconceivable for us to go to Heaven because nothing unclean can enter. There is no ‘loss’ in Heaven. It is inconceivable for the verse to apply to Hell because the verse tells us that we are still saved. You can call it anything you like, but it is quite obvious that some sort of purification takes place after death.

Purgatory is a work of Christ? Are you serious? Jesus spoke plainly about heaven and hell, but not one word on purgatory, so how can you even think it’s His work (apart from “because the Church says so!”)? And here you are, referring back to 1 Cor 3:14-15 (which has already been addressed), and stating “There is no ‘loss’ in Heaven”, but you seem to ignore the fact that this is a trying of our WORKS, and those whose WORKS survive will receive a reward! Are there rewards in heaven?

dpgreen:

To draw an analogy: if we come to visit someone and we have mud on our shoes, we clean them or take them off before we enter. Same applies with Heaven.

To add to your analogy, we wipe our feet or remove our shoes when we leave this life and enter into eternity.

dpgreen:

I don’t think you can deny the scripture passages provided, particularly in light of the fact that Jesus, a Jew, would have believed in a place of purging. Nowhere does He deny its existence.

Except when the scriptures are taken in context, and the fact that Jesus (who is God), never mentions any such place in the same way He tells us about heaven and hell. I find this “argument from silence” (“Nowhere does He deny its existence.”) to be very selective. Rather than go off on a tangent (and leaving the topic in the dust), I’ll just end this thought here.

dpgreen:

Matt 12:32 - this verse speaks of the fact that there is some sin that will be forgiven in the age to come.

Already addressed above.

dpgreen:

1 Peter 4:6 - the gospel was preached to the dead. Now there is absolutely no use preaching to people in hell - there aint no getting out of there. So, if Jesus preached to the dead they must have been somewhere else because Heaven was not yet opened.

Of course, it couldn’t have been purgatory, since anyone in this place is destined for heaven anyway (right?). Of course, Peter tells us why this was done – “that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh;” (DR). It seems clear that the preaching to the dead was so that they would have no excuse for their rebellion to God when they were alive.

dpgreen:

2 Tim 1:16-18 -Paul is asking God to grant mercy to someone who is dead.

What proof do you have that Onesiphorus was dead when Paul wrote this?

dpgreen:

Please enlighten me as to how you explain some of these scripture verses, particularly 1 Cor 3:14-15.

Already answered above (as well as in my first post).

 

[Cachonga]

Randy Carson:

“If it [his work] is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”

Who or what is escaping through the flames?

The man.

What does this mean - “only as one escaping through the flames” (emphasis added)? What went through the flames? it wasn’t the man, but the works. This speaks of judgement and rewards (everyone’s works will pass through the fire, but only those whose works are not burned up will receive a reward).