Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

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Dan,

I was about to continue my presentation to you. After considering the Divine Persons collectively, I was going to introduce them to you individually. However, it seems that both you and regardless are having a difficult time understanding the nature of each of Three Persons of the Trinity. I will take a moment and explain, briefly, what is meant by the terms nature and person.

First some general notions. By the Blessed Trinity we mean the mystery of one God in three persons, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, each subsisting distinct in the same identical divine nature.

It will be well if, at the outset of our study of this fundamental dogma of the Christian religion, we acquire precise and clear cut ideas as to the exact significance of such terms as nature and person.

They are words which we employ commonly enough in ordinary conversation, and in writing in a losse literary way, without adverting to their more precise philosophical and theological connotations. Both words are of ancient lineage and have played no mean part in the history of dogma. For centuries they were the watchwords, the touchstones of orthodoxy, during the great controversies which distracted the early Church as to the divinity and humanity of Christ. In the welter of theological argument, ambiguities were gradually removed, and in the course of time the meaning of these two words gradually crystallised into definite technical form.

The word nature, derived from the Latin natum (Nasci, to be born), means literally that which is born, or that which is produced. We use the term nature, in its widest sense, to indicate everything that has been produced, the totality of finite things, the whole created universe which in its various parts furnishes the objects of what are called the natural sciences. These objects, the earth, the sea, the animals, the stars, differ very considerably: each, we say, has its own nature. And so by an easy transition from its etymological significance, we arrive at the philosophical meaning of the term nature as that which makes a thing what it is; it other words, the essence, or quiddity of the thing.

“Nature, properly so called,” says Aristotle, “is the essence of beings, which have in themselves the principle of their movement.” The nature of any being, then, is simply its essence considered from the dynamic standpoint, that is, precisely as the principle of its particular activities. It is the nature of a fish to swim, of a bird to fly, of a reptile to crawl; and it is by observing their characteristic operations, their native activities, that we are able to classify things according to their natures.

cont.
 
The word person is derived from the Latin persona, which originally meant the mask worn by ancient Greeks and Roman actors on the stage. These tragic and comic masks were so constructed as to magnify the voice which sounded through (per sonare) the spacious cavity in front of the actor’s mouth. That through which the voice sounded, the mask, was naturally called persona.

The term was then transferred from the mask to the acctor who wore it as he portrayed some god or other mighty potentate. Next, it came to be applied to any assumed character of distinction, and finally to any human being as a name of dignity. For, it will be noted, person is primarily a name of honor, indicating rank and importance; and consequently, in philosophical usage, it came to be applied exclusively to the highest grade of the things which exist in nature, namely, substances endowed with rationality. Accordingly, in the fifth century, Boethius defined persona as “an individual substance of a rational nature.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Leibnitz, Kant, and others have made valuable contributions to the study of personality, but the classical definiton of Boethius remains substantially unchanged and unchallenged.

Hence the requisite qualifications for personality are:
1.) In the first place, subsistence or substantiality; a person is first and foremost a substance, that is, something which exists in itself, something which subsists, as for instance an apple.

2.) In the second place, the substance must be distinct, that is, it must have complete individuality, so that it is not in any sense part of, or common to, something else. Consequently neither the human body nor the human soul, separately, is a person.

3.) And, finally, this distinct substance must be of a rational nature. We cannot, therefore, predicate personality of dogs or horses, however clever they may be, and still less can we predicate it of lower forms of life, or of inanimate objects. By a person, then, we mean a distinct substance endowed with the faculty of reason.

We speak of the mystery of the Blessed Trinity, because clearly we are staing a truth which is above or beyond reason, when we say that in the same divine nature there are three distinct persons. As far as our experience goes, wherever we have a plurality of persons, we have also a plurality of individual natures. Apart from revelation we should never even have conceived the possibility of such a thing as absolute identity of nature in three distinct persons.

The First Vatican Council has declared that the deposit of revealed truth contains some mysteries which can neither be understood nor demonstrated by reason, and in the whole ambit of divine revelation there is nothing more profound than the doctrine of the Trinity. Here, then, if anywhere, we have a truth above reason. It is beyond the wit of mortal man to fathom it, to sound its depths and shoals, for “no one knoweth the Son but the Father; neither doth anyone know the Father but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.” (Matthew 11:27) Nevertheless, with St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Aquinas, we contend that the doctrine of the Trinity is not against reason, and, furthermore, that we can establish to the full the rationality of the obedience of the faith which accepts this great mystery.

To say that unaided human reason could never have excogitated the doctrine of the Trinity is not to say that the doctrine is incomprehensible or evidently repugnant to reason. The fact being made known to us by revelation that there are three persons in one God, reason, as you have already been shown, is well able to dispose of the objections which reason can bring. Truth is not at war with itself, and consequently reason AND revelation play perfectly harmonious parts in the service of Eternal Truth.
 
Divinity is reflective of its subject. An angel is divine as compared to man. Divine essence in relation to God is of itself and incomparible. But divinity refers to different attributes based on what it is related to as it is a discription man assigns to distinguish qualities or attributes of the subject.
Thanks for agreeing that angels can be considered divine beings, albeit in a round about sort of way! “Divine” is an adjective while QEOS and elohim are nouns. Greek and Hebrew have adjectival forms as well. In Greek it would be QEIOS. However angels are not called divine, they are called QEOI (angels plural) and elohim. Therefore they can said to be literally gods and this can be described as divine beings. That reminds me of McKenzie’s description of the Word as “a divine being” for the Greek QEOS (a god).

One can also be called elohim if one is the representative of God, like Moses in Ex 7:1.
 
This has been a fascinating thread to read Dan. A bit over my head in parts.

It is faith strengthening to see how quickly all the Trinity “proof texts” can be dismissed by someone who knows how Greek works, knows history, has researched them or simply compared them in various translations.

I am a witness in NZ.
I love the logic and evidence backing up the truth. Alas, I am still very novice on Koine Greek and detailed history of Christendom. I could explain John 1:1 or give a brief summary of the philosophies and councils that led up to the trinity, but that is about my limit.
Everyday Bible reading constantly contradicts the trinity.
Otherwise one would have to firmly believe the Trinity and then start reading the Bible with that “fact” firmly in mind.

Where have you got all your info from? You know a lot of detail on this subject the WT doesn’t bog us down with. Have you studied Greek and history professionally? Or is all your knowledge on this subject from private research?

If you can recommend a good article or book for a relative beginner I would be interested. Societys publications or other.

Your brother, Regardless.
👍
regardless,

It is unfortunate that your religion only goes back less than two hundred years, for, from the very beginning the doctrine of the Trinity was in the forefront of Christian teaching. It is enshrined in the final commission of our Blessed Saviour to his Apostles: “Going therefore teach all nations . . . baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19) and taught explicitly in many passages of the New Testament.
 
Thanks for agreeing that angels can be considered divine beings, albeit in a round about sort of way! “Divine” is an adjective while QEOS and elohim are nouns. Greek and Hebrew have adjectival forms as well. In Greek it would be QEIOS. However angels are not called divine, they are called QEOI (angels plural) and elohim. Therefore they can said to be literally gods and this can be described as divine beings. That reminds me of McKenzie’s description of the Word as “a divine being” for the Greek QEOS (a god).

One can also be called elohim if one is the representative of God, like Moses in Ex 7:1.
Dan,

Only God is divine. Angels were created by God. Really Dan!

There is a most authentic source of information concerning angelic life, angelic power, and angelic character - the Church’s worship, both in its sacramental and in its liturgical aspect. It should also be noted the Church considers the spirits as her fellow workers in the sanctification of the world, and her fellow-worshippers in the adoration of Christ.
 
Dan,

Only God is divine. Angels were created by God. Really Dan!

There is a most authentic source of information concerning angelic life, angelic power, and angelic character - the Church’s worship, both in its sacramental and in its liturgical aspect. It should also be noted the Church considers the spirits as her fellow workers in the sanctification of the world, and her fellow-worshippers in the adoration of Christ.
If you would like to interact with my Scriptural evidence, then we can continue discussing this. I respect your right to believe as you do and I won’t denigrate your belief.
 
If you would like to interact with my Scriptural evidence, then we can continue discussing this. I respect your right to believe as you do and I won’t denigrate your belief.
Dan,

Agreed.

What, then, are the certain conclusions to be drawn from the principle that angels are spirits? The following statements may be taken as being widely accepted theorems concerning angelic existence:

1.) Angels have a beginning, but they cannot perish; they remain everlastingly the same.

2.) Angels are not subject to laws to time, but have a duration measure all their own.

3.) Angels are completely superior to space, so that they could never be subject to its laws.

4.) Angelic power on the material world is exerted directly through the will.

5.) Angelic life has two faculties only, intellect and will.

6.) In the sphere of nature an angel cannot err, either in intellect or will.

7.) An angel never goes back on a decision once taken.

8.) The angelic mind starts with fullness of knowledge, and it is not, like the human mind, subject to gradual developement.

9.) An angel may directly influence another created intellect, but he cannot act directly on another created will.

10.) Angels have free will; they are capable of love and hatred.

11.) Angels know material things and individual things.

12.) Angels do not know the future; they do not know the secret thoughts of other rational creatures; they do not know the mysteries of grace, unless such things be revealed freely, either by God or by other rational creatures.
 
If you would like to interact with my Scriptural evidence, then we can continue discussing this. I respect your right to believe as you do and I won’t denigrate your belief.
Dan,

Methinks you are trying to control the discussion by the above statement. Am I correct?

I have no problem interacting with you in these discussions, but, are you saying that only your Scriptural evidence will be allowed to be discussed?
 
Thank you for the presentation. It was very well presented. As I posted on the other part of your presentation Jehovah’s Witnesses agree that the Father does all things through the Son by means of the holy spirit. However it is only by combining the biblical texts with Pagan Religion that one can arrive at the Trinity for those accounts. I have posted a new thread on two of your Fathers who make this connection.
That’s a Heavy Judgment for someone to make against God and the Son by someone who refuses responding to scripture that opposes his own belief system.

Jesus as the son of God;

Exodus CH3; 14 “God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.” And

John CH8; 58 “Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.” Referring to himself.

Would you say Jesus was lying?

Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God’s hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus’ hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the “Him” is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.

Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.

Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.

Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.

Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means “God is with us” - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.

Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.

Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.

Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
continued …
 
That’s a Heavy Judgment for someone to make against God and the Son by someone who refuses responding to scripture that opposes his own belief system.

Jesus as the son of God;

Exodus CH3; 14 “God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.” And

John CH8; 58 “Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.” Referring to himself.

Would you say Jesus was lying?

Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God’s hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus’ hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the “Him” is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.

Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.

Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.

Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.

Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means “God is with us” - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.

Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.

Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.

Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
continued …
twb1621,

Since Dan has been forced to resort to the Catholic Early Church Fathers it appears that he is unwilling to resort to his own early fathers, the founders of the JWs. And why is that? The answer is simple, they are unreliable. With their ever changing doctrines is there no wonder?

BTW- It is amazing how he tried to use the works of St. John and St. Gregory to try and refute the Trinity. I exposed his error on another thread.
 
continued from previous post

***Witnesses to Jesus being the Son of God. ***

John 1:1 - John writes, “the Word was God.” This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ’s divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah’s bible, the passage was changed to “Word was a god.” This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man’s angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus’ Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel “killed the Author of Life.” This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.

Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation. The Greek word for “first-born” is “prototokos” which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Col. 1:26 - God’s saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son “God.” But of the Son He says, “Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever.”

Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son “God.” “Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee.”

Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son “Lord.” “And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work.”

Continued next post.
 
continued from previous post.

Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 - “that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”

Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, “The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life.” See Isa. 44:6.

Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

Jesus attestation to His Divinity as God;

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” in reference to Himself.

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, “You heard it said…but I say to you…”

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, “Lord, Lord.” Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is “Lord of the Sabbath.” He is the Lord of God’s law which means He is God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself “Lord.” “The Lord has need of them.”

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God “Abba,” Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus’ unique intimacy with the Father.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said “tell how much God has done for you.” And the man declared how much Jesus did.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, “whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”

John 6:38 - Jesus says, “For I have come down from heaven.”

John 8:12 - Jesus says “I am the light of the world.” - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

John 8:19 - Jesus says, “if you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” Exodus 3:14 - “I AM” means “Yahweh,” which means God.

There are many more but I believe this is sufficient to establish the point. You can deny Jesus IS God but in doing so you must also declare Him to be an absolute liar in all the claims He makes of being God Himself. Even if you were to claim He was only a prophet, you would have to say He was not telling the truth in which case He could not be a prophet of God being of deceit. Other wise, you must accept He is God in which case there is but one God with three entities.

No man knows the mind of God, but God knows the limitations of man. So lets say for the sack of our limited ability to understand the Trinity we use the following simple supposition;

#1-We have God, our Heavenly Father and Creator of all things whose abilities are unlimited and beyond our comprehension.

#2- We have God, the Son of man” conceived of the Holy Spirit through a human women, hence taking the physical nature of humanity yet remaining one in the omnipotent mind and heart of God. God attests to Jesus as His Son so there is no doubt there while Jesus acknowledges HE is God and Obviously no dispute or displeasure is created or shown with God the Father so there must be no division between them for God Himself says He is God alone.

#3- and then we have the Holy Spirit, God’s will itself. The very implementation of God’s will” presented in any form God so elects or no humanly sense perceptible form at all but the implementer none the less.

What credible source do you have to deny this?
 
twb1621,

Since Dan has been forced to resort to the Catholic Early Church Fathers it appears that he is unwilling to resort to his own early fathers, the founders of the JWs. And why is that? The answer is simple, they are unreliable. With their ever changing doctrines is there no wonder?

BTW- It is amazing how he tried to use the works of St. John and St. Gregory to try and refute the Trinity. I exposed his error on another thread.
Well said my Brother…
 
twb1621,

Since Dan has been forced to resort to the Catholic Early Church Fathers it appears that he is unwilling to resort to his own early fathers, the founders of the JWs. And why is that? The answer is simple, they are unreliable. With their ever changing doctrines is there no wonder?

BTW- It is amazing how he tried to use the works of St. John and St. Gregory to try and refute the Trinity. I exposed his error on another thread.
Where did I say that John and Gregory refuted the Trinity? That is not my position at all. Please read what I wrote. Do you agree with John and Gregory that the source of the Trinity includes Pagan Greek teachings? They seemed to thing that was great and an asset to their argument for the Trinity, do you?
 
Oh well, Dan’s not responding to posts 188, 190 and 191 even after inviting me to this discussion…:rolleyes:
 
Dan,

Methinks you are trying to control the discussion by the above statement. Am I correct?

I have no problem interacting with you in these discussions, but, are you saying that only your Scriptural evidence will be allowed to be discussed?
Not at all. However there are other forums for Philosophy, etc. Not that other things do not enter into discussions here, but the prime thrust of any dialogue in which I will engage here is the Sacred Scripture. That is why I am here, it is my love for Sacred Scripture.
 
You are assuming what you seek to prove! But that begs the question as to why Father Gregory Nazianzus would say that of the group of wise men that included him (although he argues against their view) that some of them believe the following:

"But of the wise men amongst ourselves, some have conceived of him as an Activity, some as a Creature, some as God; and some have been uncertain which to call Him. " (Orat 31,5; PG 36 137C)

Four views in the Church at that time?
  1. An Activity
  2. A Creature
  3. God
  4. Not sure.
And these ones had the teaching of the apostles handed down to them in an unbroken fashion?
You have quoted that passage out of context. Here it is:

IV. If ever there was a time when the Father was not, then there was a time when the Son was not. If ever there was a time when the Son was not, then there was a time when the Spirit was not. If the One was from the beginning, then the Three were so too. If you throw down the One, I am bold to assert that you do not set up the other Two. For what profit is there in an imperfect Godhead? Or rather, what Godhead can there be if It is not perfect? And how can that be perfect which lacks something of perfection? And surely there is something lacking if it has not the Holy, and how would it have this if it were without the Spirit? For either holiness is something different from Him, and if so let some one tell me what it is conceived to be; or if it is the same, how is it not from the beginning, as if it were better for God to be at one time imperfect and apart from the Spirit? If He is not from the beginning, He is in the same rank with myself, even though a little before me; for we are both parted from Godhead by time. If He is in the same rank with myself, how can He make me God, or join me with Godhead?

V. Or rather, let me reason with you about Him from a somewhat earlier point, for we have already discussed the Trinity. The Sadducees altogether denied the existence of the Holy Spirit, just as they did that of Angels and the Resurrection; rejecting, I know not upon what ground, the important testimonies concerning Him in the Old Testament. And of the Greeks those who are more inclined to speak of God, and who approach nearest to us, have formed some conception of Him, as it seems to me, though they have differed as to His Name, and have addressed Him as the Mind of the World, or the External Mind, and the like. But of the wise men amongst ourselves, some have conceived of him as an Activity, some as a Creature, some as God; and some have been uncertain which to call Him, out of reverence for Scripture, they say, as though it did not make the matter clear either way. And therefore they neither worship Him nor treat Him with dishonour, but take up a neutral position, or rather a very miserable one, with respect to Him. And of those who consider Him to be God, some are orthodox in mind only, while others venture to be so with the lips also. And I have heard of some who are even more clever, and measure Deity; and these agree with us that there are Three Conceptions; but they have separated these from one another so completely as to make one of them infinite both in essence and power, and the second in power but not in essence, and the third circumscribed in both; thus imitating in another way those who call them the Creator, the Co-operator, and the Minister, and consider that the same order and dignity which belongs to these names is also a sequence in the facts.

VI. But we cannot enter into any discussion with those who do not even believe in His existence, nor with the Greek babblers (for we would not be enriched in our argument with the oil of sinners). With the others, however, we will argue thus. The Holy Ghost must certainly be conceived of either as in the category of the Self-existent, or as in that of the things which are contemplated in another; of which classes those who are skilled in such matters call the one Substance and the other Accident. Now if He were an Accident, He would be an Activity of God, for what else, or of whom else, could He be, for surely this is what most avoids composition? And if He is an Activity, He will be effected, but will not effect and will cease to exist as soon as He has been effected, for this is the nature of an Activity. How is it then that He acts and says such and such things, and defines, and is grieved, and is angered, and has all the qualities which belong clearly to one that moves, and not to movement? But if He is a Substance and not an attribute of Substance, He will be conceived of either as a Creature of God, or as God. For anything between these two, whether having nothing in common with either, or a compound of both, not even they who invented the goat-stag could imagine. Now, if He is a creature, how do we believe in Him, how are we made perfect in Him? For it is not the same thing to believe IN a thing and to believe About it. The one belongs to Deity, the other to—any thing. But if He is God, then He is neither a creature, nor a thing made, nor a fellow servant, nor any of these lowly appellations. Source
 
Where did I say that John and Gregory refuted the Trinity? That is not my position at all. Please read what I wrote. Do you agree with John and Gregory that the source of the Trinity includes Pagan Greek teachings? They seemed to thing that was great and an asset to their argument for the Trinity, do you?
Whether the source of the Trinity is Pagan Greek teaching or not I don’t know; but the passages you have quote does not prove that. They only thing they prove is that there was diversiy of theological opinion in early Christianity, which everybody knows about and was to be expected. All of those church counsils were held to resolve the many controversies that arose out of those diversities of theological opinion. The fact that such diversity existed does not prove the point you are trying to make.
 
Dan,

Agreed.

What, then, are the certain conclusions to be drawn from the principle that angels are spirits? The following statements may be taken as being widely accepted theorems concerning angelic existence:

1.) Angels have a beginning, but they cannot perish; they remain everlastingly the same.

2.) Angels are not subject to laws to time, but have a duration measure all their own.

3.) Angels are completely superior to space, so that they could never be subject to its laws.

4.) Angelic power on the material world is exerted directly through the will.

5.) Angelic life has two faculties only, intellect and will.

6.) In the sphere of nature an angel cannot err, either in intellect or will.

7.) An angel never goes back on a decision once taken.

8.) The angelic mind starts with fullness of knowledge, and it is not, like the human mind, subject to gradual developement.

9.) An angel may directly influence another created intellect, but he cannot act directly on another created will.

10.) Angels have free will; they are capable of love and hatred.

11.) Angels know material things and individual things.

12.) Angels do not know the future; they do not know the secret thoughts of other rational creatures; they do not know the mysteries of grace, unless such things be revealed freely, either by God or by other rational creatures.
Thank you for sharing that. You have a lot of details there about angels that is not found in Scripture. Where did it come from?
 
There is only one God. Now Jesus proclaims He is God several times in the NT and the only words spoken from God as our Father in Heaven is in support of His son. If Jesus is God which we believe through the mystery of the Trinity, it is faith that keeps us stronge in His word. So do You believe Jesus is a lier throughout the NT or do you believe through Faith that Jesus is all Truth. If you believe Him to be deceitful, why would you honor Him as even a prophet or acknowledge Him as the Son of God?

Please explain the JW belief in this…

If you don’t answer, I will understand…😉
 
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