Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

[Dan_Parker]

This post was in another thread and since it has not been addressed and is a bit of a departure from the original thread, I am placing it here. I am interested in how Catholics view the biblical monotheism I presented in this post.

Originally Posted by Danno2281

The most pertinent consideration is that there is in Greek no indefinite article, as you well know. The application of the article, by Mackenzie or anyone else, comes down to interpretation being necessary to faithful translation. Because the whole of scripture is the milieu wherein the interpretation must occur, one cannot rightly argue one line against the whole backdrop of the scriptures. Given the examples of the assurance of the divinity of Christ above (and there are many more), and the impossibility of believing in more than one god (cf.Jas: 2, 19), the argument against the article prevails

**
Dan:**
Actually, the question is not whether or not more than one person has been given the title of god is not debatable. Moses was called elohim (Ex 7:1) and there are other examples as well. Since others can have the title of god in a limited way the question arises as to how bible writers express the concept of monotheism.

Monotheism comes from the Greek word MONO (one or only) and QEOS (God). When bible writers establish and articulate the concept of monotheism they frequently modify the word God with hEIS (one) or MONOS (only).

Do a search of all examples in Scripture where this is done and you will find that in many cases not only is the basic concept of monotheism established, but in the very same verse that one God is identified.

Here are some of them:

• NAB Malachi 2:10 )Have we not all the one Father? Has not the one God created us? Why then do we break faith with each other, violating the covenant of our fathers?

•  NAB **1 Corinthians 8:6** yet for us there is **one God, the Father**, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist.

•  NAB **Ephesians 4:6 ****one God and Father** of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

•  NAB **1 Timothy 2:5** For there is **one God**. There is also **one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus**, himself human [context mandates the one God is the Father]

•  NAB John 5:43 I came in the name of **my Father,** but you do not accept me; yet if another comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe, when you accept praise from one another and do not seek the praise that comes from **the only God**?

•  NAB Jude 1:25 to **the only God**, our savior, **through Jesus Christ our Lord** be glory, majesty, power, and authority from ages past, now, and for ages to come. Amen. [the one God distinguished from Jesus]

•  NAB John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, **the only true God**, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. [Jesus praying to his Father]

When bible writers articulate the concept of monotheism they also at the same time frequently identify the Father as that one God.

That is the monotheism of the bible writers and what they teach in context.

Dan

 

[Poetess_Kera]

In John 10:30, Jesus says:

“I and the Father are one.”

Also, Jesus was completely sinless, as was God the Father, signifying unity. The Father and the Son are one in the same.

 

[Dan_Parker]

In John 10:30, Jesus says:

“I and the Father are one.”

Also, Jesus was completely sinless, as was God the Father, signifying unity. The Father and the Son are one in the same.

Thanks for the response. You might be surprised to know that this is not the only time that Jesus spoke of this oneness. Jesus was praying to his Father and speaking about his disciples:

NAB John 17:22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus said that his disciples are one as he and his Father are one. The Greek word here rendered one is in the neuter and is hEN in both this passage and John 10:30. It means one thing, in this case one in purpose. The disciples are neither one person or one being, they are one in purpose and are one as the Father and Son are one.

Thanks for your response, even though what you really needed to show was where Jesus is called “the one God.”

If the word “one” was in reference to the one God it would be the masculine hEIS and not the neuter hEN. When we find the phrase one God in Greek it is hEIS QEOS because QEOS is masculine.

Dan

 

[LionHeart777]

the Bible writers also refer to Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.

 

[Dan_Parker]

the Bible writers also refer to Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.

**
Dan:**
I am quite familiar with a handful of verses which are said to refer to Jesus as God. Some are debated even amongst Trinitarian scholars. However none of them refer to Jesus as the ‘one God’ which is an expression of Christian monotheism. If you read my post carefully you will see that is what I am discussing.

As for the holy spirit, it is only be making some assumptions and holding to a presupposition of that fact that one arrives at that conclusion. No verse explicitly states the holy spirit is God as you do.

Dan

 

[LionHeart777]

Dan:

I should have read more before I responded , excuse me. I’m sleepy eyed I’ll come back later.

 

[NHInsider]

Dan-

I suspect that the reason the original post did not generate much traffic is because most people recognize a futile discussion.

I wouldn’t get too involved in trying to discuss the Trinity with a Jehovah’s Witness. You explicitly deny the Trinity and, of course, have your own version of Scripture from which to “prove” your points.

Although the Watch Tower Society is less than 150 years old, the theology is very similar to that of the Arians, one of the oldest and most insidious heresies in Christian history.

Personally I’d rather line up with Athanasius.

 

[Dan_Parker]

NHInsider:
Dan-

I suspect that the reason the original post did not generate much traffic is because most people recognize a futile discussion.

I wouldn’t get too involved in trying to discuss the Trinity with a Jehovah’s Witness. You explicitly deny the Trinity and, of course, have your own version of Scripture from which to “prove” your points.

Dan:
Not sure what you mean by “too” involved, but that is your decision. However it is ironic that you make the claim about me that when the **Opening Post **used your own Catholic New American Bible.

I don’t explicitly deny the Trinity. I recognize that no bible writer teaches it, unlike other legitimate bible doctrines. This recent post of mine illustrates that point.

That is a good question because no bible writer teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. The basic concept which is the foundation of all legitimate doctrine is taught by one or more bible writers, in context. While not every detail is found in one passage, the basic concept will be there as a teaching.

For example, baptism. We don’t need to take a water verse from one bible writer teaching one context and a dunking verse from another bible writer teaching in yet another context and a repentance verse from (you guessed it!) yet another bible writer teaching a doctrine other than baptism and then paste them all together like a patchwork quilt to form a doctrine that no bible writer ever articulated. Each of the synoptic gospels puts these basic elements together for us to form the basic concept of Christian baptism.

Not so the Trinity. It stands alone.

Catholics (and Protestants!) why do you believe it?

Dan

NHInsider:
Although the Watch Tower Society is less than 150 years old, the theology is very similar to that of the Arians, one of the oldest and most insidious heresies in Christian history.

Personally I’d rather line up with Athanasius.

Dan:
We adhere to the theology of the first century Christians and don’t incorporate the continued doctrinal development after the apostles died. That includes both Arius and Athanasius.

Dan

 

[Poetess_Kera]

If you don’t mind my asking, and I apologize for it being rather off-topic, why do Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the existence of Hell when Jesus spoke very plainly about certain sinners being liable to hellfire or the Gehenna of fire? And why do you believe that your church holds the correct interpretation of Scripture when it was only recently founded, rather than a Church that has been around since the time of the Apostles? Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church. If your church is the true church, wouldn’t that be a direct denial of Jesus’ statement?

 

[FCEGM]

A question, Dan: Was/Is the Father always Father?

 

[Dan_Parker]

If you don’t mind my asking, and I apologize for it being rather off-topic, why do Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the existence of Hell when Jesus spoke very plainly about certain sinners being liable to hellfire or the Gehenna of fire? And why do you believe that your church holds the correct interpretation of Scripture when it was only recently founded, rather than a Church that has been around since the time of the Apostles? Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church. If your church is the true church, wouldn’t that be a direct denial of Jesus’ statement?

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not deny the existence of Hell. We also do not confuse Hell (Greek Hades) with Gehenna. If you believe that Hades and Gehenna are the same thing, which is what you say above (in fiery red!) then what about these Catholic Bibles?

DRA Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell: nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption.

NAB Acts 2:27 because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.

NJB Acts 2:27 for you will not abandon me to **Hades **or allow your holy one to see corruption.

This is spoken about Jesus. Did Jesus suffer in Hellfire when he died? Of course not!

I can discuss this at length with you, but the Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades are the place where the dead are. Gehenna is figurative of destruction.

The Catholic Catechism as late as 1891 teaches a fiery hell. In 1994 the Catechism now says that hell’s chief punishment is separation from God.

In 1999 Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should not be seen as a fiery underworld, but as separation from God.

If you are Catholic, why don’t you follow the latest Catholic teaching on this?

Dan

 

[FCEGM]

. . . .

In 1999 Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should not be seen as a fiery underworld, but as separation from God.

If you are Catholic, why don’t you follow the latest Catholic teaching on this?

Dan

The teaching hasn’t changed, Dan. Please see the Holy Father’s text on Hell and see especially the footnote given for paragraph #3.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Note

 

[Dan_Parker]

The teaching hasn’t changed, Dan. Please see the Holy Father’s text on Hell and see especially the footnote given for paragraph #3.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Note

Can you quote me the part you feel proves that the Catechism has not changed?

 

[Mark77]

Dan,

**Jesus loves you and He is saying to you, just as He said to St. Paul when he was Saul the Pharisee persecuting His Church;

"And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” (Acts 9:4)**

My brother Dan, Open your heart to His Infinite Mercy and Love!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Poetess_Kera]

Could you please answer my second question? Why do you believe in a man-made institution that has only been around since the nineteenth century, rather than a Church that has been around since the time of the Apostles? The Catholic Church also has an ongoing history of miracles: Eucharistic miracles, incorrupt bodies of saints, miracles of healing, Scapular miracles, miracles through visions of Jesus and Mary, etcetera. I would be very happy to show you videos on YouTube of these miracles if you would like to see them.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

**Jesus loves you and He is saying to you, just as He said to St. Paul when he was Saul the Pharisee persecuting His Church;

"And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” (Acts 9:4)**

My brother Dan, Open your heart to His Infinite Mercy and Love!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

Dan:
I hardly think that presenting the view of Saint Paul and Jesus Christ that the Father is the only true God and the one God is persecution.

Would it not be more productive in light of the purpose of this board to discuss the Sacred Scriptures if you showed me why my exegesis was incorrect?

Dan

 

[Mark77]

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not deny the existence of Hell. We also do not confuse Hell (Greek Hades) with Gehenna. If you believe that Hades and Gehenna are the same thing, which is what you say above (in fiery red!) then what about these Catholic Bibles?

This is spoken about Jesus. Did Jesus suffer in Hellfire when he died? Of course not!

I can discuss this at length with you, but the Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades are the place where the dead are. Gehenna is figurative of destruction.

The Catholic Catechism as late as 1891 teaches a fiery hell. In 1994 the Catechism now says that hell’s chief punishment is separation from God.

In 1999 Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should not be seen as a fiery underworld, but as separation from God.

If you are Catholic, why don’t you follow the latest Catholic teaching on this?

Dan

Dan,

Your problem is simple, Jesus is God. He is the One True God, along with God the Father and The Holy Spirit.

If you understood and believed that fundamental Truth, then all of these ridiculous arguments would fade into oblivion where they belong.

Jesus could not suffer in Hell, Hades or Sheol or Gehenna or whatever translation it ends up as in English.

Jesus is God, period.

Fiery Hell, Jesus said; ""The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. 45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. 47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; 48 when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into vessels but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, 50 **and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. **(Mt 13:44-50)

It may have been a metaphor for the people to understand, but separation from God, from the Perfect Love that created all of us,is infinitely more painful than any fire or torture that we could ever undergo.

**The Truth that the Church teaches is the Truth of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. It does not change, different terms may be used to describe it, but the Truth cannot change, He is eternal!
**
Stop wasting your life parsing words and preaching against Jesus and His Church.

Take this to prayer. Do not rush to judgment, for the Truth of God is eternal and if you open your heart to God, not to some men who are feeding you lies and partial truths distorted by misunderstanding.

What if the Catholic Church is truly what God wants? Yes it is full of sinners, all men are sinners,so not even your Jehovah’s Witnesses are free from sin. i would not want to stand in front of God on my judgment day and have to say that i fell for false teachings that went against the will of God!

i would rather be on the side of the Truth, which is God, than be against Him, no matter what the cost to me personally!

**“And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” (LK 9:23)

My brother Dan, i love you and you are in my prayers daily!
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Dan_Parker]

Mark77:

Your problem is simple, Jesus is God. He is the One True God, along with God the Father and The Holy Spirit.

If you understood and believed that fundamental Truth, then all of these ridiculous arguments would fade into oblivion where they belong.

Dan:
If what you say is true, then why do bible writers say there is one God and always identify Him as the Father, and never the Son or holy spirit?

Dan

 

[Mark77]

Dan, my brother,

you are obviously very intelligent and are honestly seeking the Truth!

Dan; “If what you say is true, then why do bible writers say there is one God and always identify Him as the Father, and never the Son or holy spirit?”

You, as a believing Jehovah’s Witness, are saying that Jesus is not God? and that the Holy Spirit is not God???

**If you believe that is true, then you must call Jesus a liar for He says;
**
"Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesu asked them this question: “What do you think of the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” He said to them, "How is it then that David by the Spirit calls him Lord, saying, “The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet” '? If David thus calls him Lord, how can he be his son?” No one was able to give him an answer, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions." (Mt 22:41-46).

mark

 

[TristanCross]

Zechariah 12:10
*And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. *

This is God giving a prophecy through Zechariah. God Himself refers to Himself as “Me whom they pierced”. We know that the Father was never pierced, and it seems rather odd to consider the Father as one who should be mourned for as an “only son”. This is an obvious prophecy of Christ, and since God is the one speaking of Himself, that means Christ is God.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

This MIGHTY GOD is a child. A child. A decedent of…David…

Matthew 21:15-16
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant, and they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, “‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise’?”

Matthew 8:2-3
And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.” Then Jesus put out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.” Immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

Rather than rebuking the leper for worshiping Him, He healed him.

God tells us to worship none but Him.

Exodus 34:14 KJV
(14) For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Jesus is worshiped after His resurrection, and He allows it. He even says all power is given to Him:

Matthew 28:9 KJV
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:16-20 KJV
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Even the angels know better than to receive worship:

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

And again:

Revelation 22:8-9
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Romans 9:3-5
For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

John 8:58
*Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. *

Isaiah 43:10-12
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Jesus said He would raise His body after three days it is “destroyed”:

John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

The Bible says God raised it up:

Acts 2:32
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Galatians 1:1
Paul an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead