Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

[FCEGM]

Can you quote me the part you feel proves that the Catechism has not changed?

Hell is a state of eternal damnation

1. To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).

The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.

Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged “by what they [have done]” (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).

The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).

1. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather* [see note below] than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).

“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.

We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan

1. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying “yes” or “no”, which marks the human creature’s freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God’s love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.

Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: “Father, accept this offering from your whole family … save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen”.

*[Note: The original Italian says, “(Più che) More than a place, hell indicates…” This suggests correctly that although hell is not essentially “a place,” rather the definitive loss of God, confinement is included. Thus, after the general resurrection the bodies of the damned, being bodies not spirits, must be in “some place,” in which they will receive the punishment of fire.]

 

[Poetess_Kera]

Is there any particular reason why you choose to ignore my simple questions?

 

[Dan_Parker]

Is there any particular reason why you choose to ignore my simple questions?

The board is busy and I am doing the best I can to keep up. Where is your simple question?

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

Thanks for the quote but I see nothing in there that denies that the Catholic Church used to teach that hell was a place of firey torment.

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

Poetess Kera:
Could you please answer my second question? Why do you believe in a man-made institution that has only been around since the nineteenth century, rather than a Church that has been around since the time of the Apostles? The Catholic Church also has an ongoing history of miracles: Eucharistic miracles, incorrupt bodies of saints, miracles of healing, Scapular miracles, miracles through visions of Jesus and Mary, etcetera. I would be very happy to show you videos on YouTube of these miracles if you would like to see them.

Dan:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don’t believe Catholics have the truth or that they teach the doctrine of the apostles. That includes the false teaching that God is three and not one. Bible writers teach that the one God is the Father and that the only true God is the Father. Therefore Catholics can’t be God’s institution because they add to biblical teaching. As for miracles, Jesus himself said:
NAB Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Poetess Kera:
As for the Trinity discussion we are having here, I honestly can’t understand how you could read the post quoting Thomas’ “My Lord and my God” statement to Jesus and believe Jesus is not God. It makes me sad that you do not acknowledge the divinity of someone who died for you so you could live with Him, as well as His mother, the angels and all the saints, for eternity.

Dan:
I already posted that your own Augustine taught that when Thomas said my Lord he was speaking of Jesus and that he referred to the Father as God. Therefore how can you be dogmatic if Augustine disagrees with you?

Dan

 

[FCEGM]

Thanks for the quote but I see nothing in there that denies that the Catholic Church used to teach that hell was a place of firey torment.

Dan

Why should it? You claimed that the Church, with the Holy Father’s presentations on the subject, had changed its teaching in this regard. I said the teaching hadn’t changed and the quote demonstrates that the resurrected body will forever experience physical pain as well as the spiritual its soul is damned to.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Of course Jesus is God. But you have to actually read John 1:18

John 1:18

θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο NA27

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB95

18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us. NLT

18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him. NAB

18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. ESV

18 No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father’s side, has revealed him. ISV

18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. NIV

18 Deum nemo vidit umquam; unigenitus Deus, qui est in sinum Patris, ipse enarravit. Nova Vulgata
Check UBS4/NA27 Greek…its ‘monogenous Theos’ NOT ‘monogenous Uios’.
Unless, you’re one of those backward text critical conservatives like Sturz, or Hodges who hold that Eclecticism is evil (lol )

Anyway, from this one verse we see that Jesus is: himself is God / The only Son, God / The only begotten God / the only God / the unique God / unigenitus Deus / monogenous Theos

of course Jesus is God

I note that there are a great many different ways to translate John 1:18. If this is your proof text that the Son is the one God or the only God then you bear the burden of proof. However the Catholic New Jerusalem Bible renders this verse:

NJB John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.

The NASB renders it:
NAS John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

This verse does not call Jesus the one God or the only God unless one In fact the Lutheran Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek lexicon quotes some scholars who say that the term could have the same meaning as firstborn (PRWTOTOKOS).

Some (e.g. WBauer, Hdb.; JBulman, Calvin Theological Journal 16, ’81, 56-79; JDahms, NTS 29, ’83, 222-32) prefer to regard m. as somewhat heightened in mng. in J and 1J to only-begotten or begotten of the Only One, in view of the emphasis on GENNASQAI EK QEOU (J 1:13 al.); in this case it would be analogous to PRWTOTOKOS (Ro 8:29; Col 1:15 al.).

I don’t deny that the word QEOS is used to describe the Son. It is also used to describe Moses. But no one but the Father is ever called the one God or the only God … John 1:18 is not an exception.

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

Why should it? You claimed that the Church, with the Holy Father’s presentations on the subject, had changed its teaching in this regard. I said the teaching hadn’t changed and the quote demonstrates that the resurrected body will forever experience physical pain as well as the spiritual its soul is damned to.

The Catholic Church used to teach that there was literal fire in hell and that this is how those who went there were tormented. This has changed. Do you agree? Or was Dante correct in his depiction?

Dan

 

[LionHeart777]

Hi Dan, sorry about the “low blow” w/ the St. Justin Martyr.

Dan:
I took no offense and am not quite sure what you mean by this.

 

[LionHeart777]

Dante doesn’t speak for the Catholic Church. I don’t know if there has ever been a Dogmatic (irreversable and infallible) proclamation that hell fire is literal. There is always Theological speculation; for example read what people read and write about Purgatory vs what the actual Dogmatic teaching is. A Catholic is only bound to the official teaching as I understand it. Perhaps one more knowledgeable in these matters will chime in as I am in the process of converting from Protestantism and have much to learn.

 

[Dan_Parker]

LionHeart777:
Dan-I flat out reject the NLT which includes the translation that you have provided here; please cite another translation

Dan:

I am not sure why you won’t consider the NLT. The New Living Translation is not a JW bible. Here are a few more:

1. New American Standard Bible (NASB) (margin 1960-1973 editions): Or, “I have been.”
2. The Living New Testament: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.”
3. The 20th Century New Testament: “before Abraham existed I was.”
4. The New Testament, An American Translation Goodspeed: “I tell you I existed before Abraham was born.”
5. The Complete Bible, An American Translation Goodspeed: “I tell you I existed before Abraham was born.”
6. New Believers Bible, New Living Translation: “I existed before Abraham was even born.”
7. The New Testament, C. B. Williams: “I solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born.”
8. The Book, New Testament: The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born."
9. The Living Bible: “I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.”
10. The Four Gospels, Lattimore: “Truly, truly I tell you, I am from before Abraham was born.”
11. The New Testament, From the Peshitta Text, Lamsa: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
12. An American Translation, In The Language of Today, Beck: “I was before Abraham.”
13. New Testament Contemporary English Version: “I tell you.that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am.”
14. The Living Scriptures (Messianic Version): “I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.”
15. The Unvarnished New Testament: “Before Abraham was born, I have already been.”
16. The New Testament, Klist & Lilly: “I am here-and I was before Abraham.”
17. The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
18. The New Testament, Noyes: “From before Abraham was, I have been.”
19. A Translation of the Four Gospels, Lewis: “Before Abraham was, I have been.”
20. The Syriac New Testament, Murdock: “Before Abraham existed I was.”
21. The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Burkitt: “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
22. The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John, Blake & Briere: “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
23. Nouvum Testamentum AEthiopice, Platt, Lepzip: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
24. The New Testament Or Rather the New Covenant, Sharpe: “I was before Abraham was born.”
25. The 20th Century New Testament 1904: “Before Abraham existed I was already what I am.”
26. The New Testament, Stage: “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
27. The Coptic Version the New Testament in the Southern Dialect, Horner: “Before Abraham became, I, I am being.”
28. The Documents of the New Testament, Wade: “Before Abraham came into being, I have existed.”
29. The New Testament in Hebrew, Delitzsh: Before Abraham was, I have been."
30. The New Testament in Hebrew, Salkinson & Ginsberg: “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.”
31. The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Swan: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
32. The New Testament (in German) Pfaefflin: “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there.”
33. The Authentic New Testament, Schonfield: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
34. Biblia Sagdrada, Roman Catholic: “Before Abraham existed, I was existing.”
35. The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Noli: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
36. The Concise Gospel and The acts, Christianson: “I existed even before Abraham was born.”
37. A Translators Handbook to the Gospel of John, Nida: “Before Abraham existed, I existed, or.I have existed.”
38. The Simple English Bible: “I was alive before Abraham was born.”
39. The Original New Testament, Schonfield: “I tell you for a positive fact, I existed before Abraham was born.”
40. The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version, Miller: “I existed before there was an Abraham.”

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

It has become fashionable among some preachers and writers to relate Jesus’ use of the words “I am” in the Gospel according to John, in all, or most, of their contexts, to God’s declaration to Moses in Exodus 3:14, and to expound the passages concerned as if the words themselves have some kind of magic in them. Some who have no more than a smattering of Greek attribute the “magic” to the Greek words ego eimi. [1] I wish briefly to draw attention to the normality of the Greek in all such passages, and the unlikelihood of the words ego eimi being intended to suggest any special significance of this kind.

It is, of course, perfectly reasonable to draw attention to Jesus’ claims about himself by noting the “I am” element common to them: ‘I am the bread of life’ (6:35), ‘I am the light of the world’ (8:12), ‘I am the gate/door’ (10:7), ‘I am the good shepherd’ (10:11), ‘I am the resurrection and the life’ (11:25), ‘I am the way, the truth and the life’ (14:6), ‘I am the true vine’ (15:1). These statements give important insights into the identity and work of Jesus, and we can be challenged to decide whether the words “I am” in them convey truth, delusion, deceit, or something else.

In each case the Greek words used are ego eimi, the pronoun being emphatic (as is usually appropriate in beginning a startling fresh statement, answering a question of identity or personal activity, and in some other circumstances), and the verb, also slightly emphatic, [2] being the normal use of the verb ‘to be’ as a copula, the means of linking the subject with the significant words, ‘bread’, ‘light’, etc., which occur as noun complements. The same principle applies when the complement is an adjective or an adverb or adverbial phrase used adjectivally.

Link to the rest of the article. (See last section at bottom of page.)

 

[Dan_Parker]

Kenneth L. McKay graduated with honors in Classics from the Universities of Sydney and Cambridge, taught Greek in universities and theological colleges in Nigeria, New Zealand, and England, who taught at the Australian National University for 26 years, has written numerous articles on ancient Greek syntax, as well as authored a book on Classical Attic, Greek Grammar for Students, and A New Syntax of the Verb in “New Testament Greek: an aspectual approach”, provides the following in relation to the alleged “true parallel between Exodus 3:14 (LXX) and John 8:58”

 

[Dan_Parker]

Why should it? You claimed that the Church, with the Holy Father’s presentations on the subject, had changed its teaching in this regard. I said the teaching hadn’t changed and the quote demonstrates that the resurrected body will forever experience physical pain as well as the spiritual its soul is damned to.

It has to do with the very nature of Hell and how the Catholic Church has presented it. Either Hell has fire which torments people forever or it does not. Has this aspect of the teaching changed?

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

LionHeart777:
My question still stands if you don’t mind though, was the Being who was speaking with Moses @ the bush using the name “I AM” as a title? Did He refer to Himself by that?

Dan:
The Greek of the LXX is what most Trinitarians use for this. This is the Brenton Septuagint.

LXE Exodus 3:14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

The words EGW EIMI (I AM) are being used here as a copulative. The actual title is “The Being” The Greek is EGW EIMI hO WN where hO WN is :“the Being.”

Jesus did not say he was the being. He used the words EGW EIMI in an entirely different way that Ex 3:14.

The only way these look the same is based upon some English translations. Jesus did not speak King James English and Ex 3:14 was not written in King James English.

Take that away and the similarity disappears.

Dan

 

[LionHeart777]

Dan. I flat out reject the JW translation that is… (*pulls both feet out of mouth)

Anyway,

re: the “fashionable” interpretation. I will re-cite St. Justin Martyr (2nd century apologist), himself I believe a Greek speaker;

“…He [Jesus] endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, ‘And the angel of God spoke to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,’ yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, ‘Israel does not know Me, my people have not understood Me.’ Isaiah 1:3 And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, ‘No one knows the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him.’ Matthew 11:27 The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spoke to Moses, though He who spoke to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God.” (newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm) (8/ 31/ 09, accessed)

It must have been “fashionable” in the 2nd century too.

The only way these look the same is based upon some English translations. Jesus did not speak King James English and Ex 3:14 was not written in King James English.

the work I just cited is approximately 1,500 years before the KJV. It could even predate the English language for all I know. I believe that the above text was penned in Greek originally. It appears to me as though according to Justin, it was Jesus who spoke w/ Moses @ the bush.

*Actually my original citation of this passage was accessed 8/ 31/ 09, my mistake

 

[FCEGM]

The Catholic Church used to teach that there was literal fire in hell and that this is how those who went there were tormented. This has changed. Do you agree? Or was Dante correct in his depiction?

Dan

No, it hasn’t changed:

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622

612 1 Jn 3:14-15.
613 Cf. Mt 25:31-46.
614 Cf. Mt 5:22,29; 10:28; 13:42,50; Mk 9:43-48.
615 Mt 13:41-42.
616 Mt 25:41.
617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.
618 Mt 7:13-14.
619 LG 48 § 3; Mt 22:13; cf. Heb 9:27; Mt 25:13,26,30,31-46.
620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529)S 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.
621 2 Pet 3:9.
622 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88.

 

[LionHeart777]

Dan,

I will correct myself; to be fair…it appears as though St. Justin doesn’t mention John 8 but nevertheless you can see that he equates Jesus w/ Him who spoke to Moses @ the bush.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

I will correct myself; to be fair…it appears as though St. Justin doesn’t mention John 8 but nevertheless you can see that he equates Jesus w/ Him who spoke to Moses @ the bush.

I understand some consider Justin had an angel-Christology. Perhaps he was referring to this:
NJB Exodus 3:2 The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame blazing from the middle of a bush. Moses looked; there was the bush blazing, but the bush was not being burnt up.

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

No, it hasn’t changed:

I need to do some more reading on this, but it appears to me it is possible that when they put “eternal fire” in quotes and say that this chief punishment is separation from God they are using fire as a metaphor. To prove your point you would need to show the same language in before 1900.

Dan