Bible writers teach monotheism and identify the Father as the one God

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Also, God said glory belongs to God only, and that He will not share it with any other:
Isaiah 48:11
For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.
Jesus claims to have a share in God’s glory.
John 17:4-5
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
My point? Jesus is God.
John 1:1-51 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
(6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
(7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
(8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
(9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
(16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
(17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(19) And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
(20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
(21) And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
(22) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
(23) He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
(24) And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
(25) And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
(26) John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
(27) He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
(28) These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
(29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
(30) This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
(31) And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
(32) And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
(33) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
(34) And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
(35) Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
(36) And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
(37) And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
(38) Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
(39) He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
(40) One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother.
(41) He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
(42) And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
(43) The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
(44) Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
(45) Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
(46) And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
(47) Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
(48) Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
(49) Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
(50) Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
(51) And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
 
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus is Michael, the archangel. This is contrary to Scripture:
Hebrews 1:1-14 KJV
(1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
(5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
(7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
(11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
(12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
(14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Jesus is God. God is Triune. I am triune. I am body, soul, spirit. God is triune. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Time is triune. Past, present, and future. Time is one. God is One. I am one. Repent.

God bless.
 
Dan, my brother,

you are obviously very intelligent and are honestly seeking the Truth!

Dan; “If what you say is true, then why do bible writers say there is one God and always identify Him as the Father, and never the Son or holy spirit?”

You, as a believing Jehovah’s Witness, are saying that Jesus is not God? and that the Holy Spirit is not God???

**If you believe that is true, then you must call Jesus a liar for He says;
**
"Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesu asked them this question: “What do you think of the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” He said to them, "How is it then that David by the Spirit calls him Lord, saying, “The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet” '? If David thus calls him Lord, how can he be his son?” No one was able to give him an answer, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions." (Mt 22:41-46).

mark
Dan:
There is nothing in that text that can remotely be misconstrued as a claim by Jesus to be God. As for the holy spirit, please consider what Paul had to say:
NAB 1 Corinthians 2:11 Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except **the spirit of the person **that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God.
Just as human beings have their own spirit that is not an independent person or second person, neither is the Spirit of God.

When bible writers say that the spirit did this or that, it is a metaphor for another person like God or Jesus who actually did this or that. When the spirit does something that appears personal, it is because there is a person who does this or that, and this person is a person like the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

If your citation is intended to prove that the Son of God existed as a person before he became flesh, Jehovah’s Witnesses do beleive this.

Dan
 
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus is Michael, the archangel. This is contrary to Scripture:

Dan:
Jehovah’s Witnesses beleive that Jesus was Michael, yes. However we are not dogmatic on that subject and don’t use it as a foundation for any other belief. There are a great many Protestant scholars who taught this, but I am not aware of any Catholics who did. The Geneva study bible in a footnote for Daniel 12:2 for example:

**The 1599 Geneva Study Bible **
Daniel Chapter 12

12:1 And at that** (a) **time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

(a) The angel here notes two things: first that the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at Christ’s coming, and next that God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel

You also cite Hebrews 1 with no exegesis:
Hebrews 1:1-14 KJV
(1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
 
TristanCross:
Also, God said glory belongs to God only, and that He will not share it with any other:

Isaiah 48:11
For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.
Jesus claims to have a share in God’s glory.

John 17:4-5
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

My point? Jesus is God.

Dan:
Actually, a comparison of Isaiah 48 and John 17 proves that Jesus is NOT God and here is why:

What Jesus asked for was to be glorified with the glory he had before when he was with the Father.
NJB John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world existed.
The Greek lexicon Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich (BDAG) agrees with the Catholic New Jerusalem bible here that the Greek preposition PARA (with) followed by the dative of person means spatial proximity
BDAG —PARA TWi PATRI with (of spatial proximity) the Father Mt 6:1; J 8:38a; cp. 17:5

Now here is where it gets interesting. In this verse it is not the Father’s glory that Jesus asks for. It is the glory he had when he was with the Father. But Jesus does say that he will share his own glory with his disciples later in this passage:

NJB John 17:22 I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus again refers to this glory he gave to them as “my glory”
NJB John 17:24 Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, so that they may always see **my glory **which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

Therefore I agree that God never gives his own personal glory to anyone else. John 17:5 certainly does not say the Father gave his personal glory to the Son. However John 17:22-24 certainly does explicitly say Jesus gives his own glory (ie my glory) to his disciples.

Therefore, Jesus is not God.

Dan
 
Your propaganda humors me 🙂 You twist and mold Scripture for your own means. This is sad, indeed. Let the Scriptures mold you.
 
Don’t forget John 20:28 where we have:
**Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” **

If Jesus was not God this would be a huge blasphemy… but what does Jesus say in the next verse:
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed

So Jesus was okay with somebody calling him God… I wonder why?
 
Your propaganda humors me 🙂 You twist and mold Scripture for your own means. This is sad, indeed. Let the Scriptures mold you.
It was your argument, not mine. Do you deny that Jesus gave his own personal glory, the glory the Father gave him, to his disciples?

Dan
 
Don’t forget John 20:28 where we have:
**Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” **

If Jesus was not God this would be a huge blasphemy… but what does Jesus say in the next verse:
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed

So Jesus was okay with somebody calling him God… I wonder why?
Not everybody agrees that Thomas called Jesus God in this verse. For example your own Saint Augustine:

John 20:28 - Augustine Tractate CXXI John XX. 10-29.
  1. “But Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe. And after eight days, again His disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith He to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God.”** He saw and touched the man, and acknowledged the God whom he neither saw nor touched; **but by the means of what he saw and touched, he now put far away from him every doubt, and believed the other. “Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed.”
Dan
 
If you’re going to submit yourself to what Augustine says then maybe you should check out Book 11, Chapter 10 of the City of God:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XI.10.html

And this Trinity is one God; and none the less simple because a Trinity. For we do not say that the nature of the good is simple, because the Father alone possesses it, or the Son alone, or the Holy Ghost alone; nor do we say, with the Sabellian heretics, that it is only nominally a Trinity, and has no real distinction of persons; but we say it is simple, because it is what it has, with the exception of the relation of the persons to one another.

From the OP I was under the impression that you only wanted scripture references. I provided a reference (John 20:28) and you responded with quote from Augustine, who clearly believed in the Trinitarian God.

So since the Early Church Fathers appear to be fair game now I’ll provide you with a quote from Ignatius of Antioch from 110 AD so you can see what early believers thought about Christ.

**“Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him” **(Letter to the Magnesians 6–8 [A.D. 110] emphasis added).
 
Jehovah’s [false] Witnesses are Antichrist because they deny that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, or resurrected in the flesh.
 
Could you please answer my second question? Why do you believe in a man-made institution that has only been around since the nineteenth century, rather than a Church that has been around since the time of the Apostles? The Catholic Church also has an ongoing history of miracles: Eucharistic miracles, incorrupt bodies of saints, miracles of healing, Scapular miracles, miracles through visions of Jesus and Mary, etcetera. I would be very happy to show you videos on YouTube of these miracles if you would like to see them.
Could you please answer me?

As for the Trinity discussion we are having here, I honestly can’t understand how you could read the post quoting Thomas’ “My Lord and my God” statement to Jesus and believe Jesus is not God. It makes me sad that you do not acknowledge the divinity of someone who died for you so you could live with Him, as well as His mother, the angels and all the saints, for eternity.
 
Jesus, referring to himself as “I AM” is clear. I think the Jews understood what he was claiming too. As Saint Justin Martyr (another 2nd Century witness) relates, in his “First Apology” :

“…He [Jesus] endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, ‘And the angel of God spoke to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,’ yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, ‘Israel does not know Me, my people have not understood Me.’ Isaiah 1:3 And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, ‘No one knows the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him.’ Matthew 11:27 The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spoke to Moses, though He who spoke to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God.” (newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm) (4/ 31/ 09, accessed)

Dan, I know that you said you don’t debate links. However, if you are interested, here is Saint Justin Martyr proving from the OT that Jesus is God in his “Dialogue with Trypho”

newadvent.org/fathers/01289.htm
 
If you’re going to submit yourself to what Augustine says then maybe you should check out Book 11, Chapter 10 of the City of God:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XI.10.html

And this Trinity is one God; and none the less simple because a Trinity. For we do not say that the nature of the good is simple, because the Father alone possesses it, or the Son alone, or the Holy Ghost alone; nor do we say, with the Sabellian heretics, that it is only nominally a Trinity, and has no real distinction of persons; but we say it is simple, because it is what it has, with the exception of the relation of the persons to one another.

From the OP I was under the impression that you only wanted scripture references. I provided a reference (John 20:28) and you responded with quote from Augustine, who clearly believed in the Trinitarian God.

So since the Early Church Fathers appear to be fair game now I’ll provide you with a quote from Ignatius of Antioch from 110 AD so you can see what early believers thought about Christ.

**“Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him” **(Letter to the Magnesians 6–8 [A.D. 110] emphasis added).
I quote Augustine as a hostile witness. I don’t maintain he is not Trinitarian, but merely that if Augustine did not think Jesus was being called God in John 20:28, then how can a Catholic be dogmatic and use that as a proof-text?

Dan
 
Jehovah’s [false] Witnesses are Antichrist because they deny that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, or resurrected in the flesh.
You assume this verse speaks of the resurrection, but the text does not say that.
NRS 2 John 1:7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist!
When John speaks of the Son as coming he always speaks of when the Son came from the Father, not the resurrection, as in J 8:42,13:3,16:27 and 17:8.

If you wish to prove that in this one example it refers to the resurrection, you have the burden of proof.

Dan
 
LionHeart777:
Jesus, referring to himself as “I AM” is clear. I think the Jews understood what he was claiming too.

Dan:
You evidently consider I AM to be a title, but that is not how Jesus used the words in John 8:58. If you consider these words to be a title, then you should be able to substitute a name and have a grammatical sentence in Greek or English. Let’s try that.


  1. *]Before Abraham was born, I AM.
    *]Before Abraham was born, Jehovah.
    *]Before Abraham was born, Fred.

    The problem with that view (if that indeed is what you mean) is that the main verb in the sentence is the to-be verb (ie EINAI). If you convert that to a noun in either English or Greek you rob the sentence of its main verb and make the sentence ungrammatical.

    In Exodus 3:14 the sentence is not ungrammatical in either Hebrew or Greek, but Jesus does not use the word EIMI the same way in John 8:58 as it is used in that verse.

    Dan
 
Hi Dan, sorry about the “low blow” w/ the St. Justin Martyr.

anyway,
whatever grammatical language employed; the intent by Jesus was clear; hence the Jewish reaction. That was the name that God gave for Moses to take back to “the children of Israel”, as you probably know:

“14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” (Exodus 3:14)
(biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%203:14&version=KJV) (4/ 31/ 09, accessed)

"58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59Then took they up stones to cast at him…" (John 8:58-59) (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:58-60&version=KJV)
(4/ 31/ 09)

In your view, was it a title in the passage in Exodus, the words “I AM”?

The fact is that the title by which God referred to Himself @ the bush w/ Moses is not like a normal title is it? It is (I/m no English major) more of a phrase; nevertheless it is descriptive of the Eternal God (IMO). It appears that you are willing to do linguistic gymnastics to avoid the plain meaning of what was being said. Could it be possible that it was more of a clever pun which would explain not conforming to the letter of the linguistic law that you are alleging? Is it possible that you have analyzed it to the point that the actual intent of what Jesus was saying is lost?

you will probably already have a prepared “refutation” of this;

if that is the case, what do we do when we don’t interpret Scripture the same way?
 
Therefore, Jesus is not God.
Of course Jesus is God. But you have to actually read John 1:18

John 1:18

θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο NA27

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB95

18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us. NLT

18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him. NAB

18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. ESV

18 No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father’s side, has revealed him. ISV

18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. NIV

18 Deum nemo vidit umquam; unigenitus Deus, qui est in sinum Patris, ipse enarravit. Nova Vulgata
Check UBS4/NA27 Greek…its ‘monogenous Theos’ NOT ‘monogenous Uios’.
Unless, you’re one of those backward text critical conservatives like Sturz, or Hodges who hold that Eclecticism is evil (lol :rolleyes:)

Anyway, from this one verse we see that Jesus is: himself is God / The only Son, God / The only begotten God / the only God / the unique God / unigenitus Deus / monogenous Theos

of course Jesus is God
 
Hi Dan, sorry about the “low blow” w/ the St. Justin Martyr.

Dan:
I took no offense and am not quite sure what you mean by this.

LionHeart777:
anyway,
whatever grammatical language employed; the intent by Jesus was clear; hence the Jewish reaction. That was the name that God gave for Moses to take back to “the children of Israel”, as you probably know:

Dan:
If you read John 8 you will find that a big part of the context is “Fatherhood.” Jesus claims his Father is God. They at first claim it is Abraham and then God. Jesus says their Father is really the Devil. The did not believe him (or would not acknowledge) that he was the Son of God. They would not acknowledge that to get to the Father one had to go through him. That made them mad.
DRA John 19:7 The Jews answered him: We have a law; and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
 
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