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Achilles6129
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I don’t think they “changed” their canon. Are you saying that there were some books the Jews considered the word of God pre-Christ, and then post-Christ they no longer considered them such?
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Lucretius
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Meh. I could just as easily say “Jesus says there would be 73 books of the Bible hundreds of years before His Church assembled it. In Luke 10, Jesus ‘appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.’ 72 others + 1 Jesus = 73. Therefore, 73 books.”
Or, I could say, “In Numbers 11, God bestows his Spirit on his people. Moses assembles 70 elders; two others in camp receive the Spirit; and Moses has already received the Spirit. 70+2+1=73. Therefore, 73 books.”
See how easy it is to make a spurious claim like that? Just find the right number, demonstrate that it exists in the Bible, and then use it to make a completely unrelated assertion.
Christi pax.
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jcrichton
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Hi!
…but aren’t those the same people who Reject Christ?:
(St. John 1:11)
…so are you saying that it makes sense that Protestants should follow the examples of the Jews who Reject Christ, and all of the New Testament Writings, instead of the Church, that holds the Succession of the Apostles and used the Septuagint, which was the version which the Apostles themselves used?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Hi!
…what I understand, from various sources–including self-professed Jews, the Jewish canon is still open; but they have determined that only those books written up to the time of Ezra are Inspired.
…and, as opposed to general belief, there are various distinctions amongst the Jews as each sect/group follows their own group’s definition (“xyz” according to rabbi…).
Maran atha!
Angel
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Thom18
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The Canon protestants use is based on the “council” of Jamnia, is it not? Despite many (if not most) Jews of Jesus’ time accepting the deuterocanon (and the first Christians, for that matter), are we to believe that they were wrong?
And of course, as jcrichton said, they rejected Christ. What reason is there to use their Canon over the one Christianity “developed” (for lack of a better word) in the fourth century?
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Achilles6129
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Well, I’m quoting Paul. He says the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God, and he obviously knows that they reject Christ and (what was then) the New Testament.
If you’re saying that there’s more than one Jewish canon then I think you’re mistaken. Check this site out:
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon
Also, from the site:
“There were controversies concerning the admission into the canon of the Book of Ezekiel, Solomon’s three books (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon), and Esther. But no controversy arose concerning the Apocrypha: all were agreed that they were non-canonical.”
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Achilles6129
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Jews accepted the deutero-canon as Scriptural? Can you cite a reference? Jewish Encyclopedia seems to say that they did not.
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De_Maria
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Then who wrote the Deuterocanon? It was the Jews.
The problem is that they despise Jesus so much, that they can’t think straight. For example, did you ever notice that they celebrate a holiday known as “Hanukah” (aka Chanukah). And, they recount the story of the Maccabbees, which are the heroes of Hanukah. YET, they deny the Scriptures which tell this story! Ironically, the Catholic Church keeps that story for the Jews. It’s part of the Deuterocanon.
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jcrichton
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Hi, Achilles!
…the problem with what you are stating is that you are presupposing that the Septuagint was not or Jewish origin.
The Septuagint was the source (Writings) used by Jesus and the Apostles.
So why wouldn’t all “Christians” use that as the source for their canon.
Further, there’s Church history–it took decades for the finalizing of the Canon–there were some determining factors… a most important one was that the books were to be part of the Church’s Liturgy… so if the early Church recognized these books, why is it that “Christians,” 1500 years removed, can undo 1500 years of Church history?
This is what can be found on line:
."[11]
Evidence that supports these challenges include the fact that “copies of some Biblical books found at Qumran reveal sharp divergences from the MT.” As an example of such evidence, Barber asserts that “scholars were amazed to find that the Hebrew copies of 1 and 2 Samuel found in Cave 4 agree with the LXX against the MT. One of these fragments is dated into the third century BCE and is believed to be the very oldest copy of a biblical text found to date. Clearly the Masoretic version of 1–2 Samuel is significantly inferior here to the LXX exemplar.”[11]
The Dead Sea scrolls refer to the Torah and Nevi’im and suggest that these portions of the Bible had been canonized before 68 CE. A scroll that contains all or parts of 41 biblical psalms, although in a different order than in the current Book of Psalms and which includes eight texts not found in the Book of Psalms, suggests that the Book of Psalms had not yet been canonized. See also Psalms 152–155. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Hebrew_Bible_canon)
…then there are the various persons who represent themselves as devote Jews (one of whom said to have been a rabbi) which have made such assertions.
I may have misunderstood or they may have been under schooled… the fact remains, why would a Christian choose a source that rejects Christ to found anything against a source that supports Christ?
Also, from the site:
“There were controversies concerning the admission into the canon of the Book of Ezekiel, Solomon’s three books (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon), and Esther. But no controversy arose concerning the Apocrypha: all were agreed that they were non-canonical.”
What I am saying is that people claiming to being devote Jews have made such claims… and that, from the info I found, it does seem to show that there were several takes on what the Jewish canon should be… the fact that portions of books that were claimed as add-ons and apocrypha were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls is enough factual proof that the Jewish canon was in deed diverse (more than one compilation).
…or do you suppose that the Church has some time travel machinery and inserted these fractions to authenticate the Septuagint?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Hi, De Maria!
Excellent point!
…it is amazing how they hold such high esteem to a celebration based on nothing–I cannot recall any Scriptures, other than the 1st and 2nd book of Maccabee, that speak to the origin of this feast/celebration.
…it’s cartoonish… you know, where the character does not fall till it notices that it’s standing on pure air…
Maran atha!
Angel
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Thom18
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Most of the Jews affected by the diaspora (and their descendents), yes. So, “Greek-speaking Jews”. Of course, as you know, there were divisions. The Sadducees didn’t accept anything except the Pentateuch, for example. There wasn’t a fixed canon in Jesus’ time, but the deuterocanon was in heavy use.
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Whalljim
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Many years ago I used this argument on my Mom:
“Who made the trees? God
By whose will does the wind blow? God.
How do the leaves get on the lawn? Gods wind blowing through God’s tree.
I can’t rake the leaves. Who am I to contest the Will of God?”
This reminds me of that.
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JohnR77
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**ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITANNICA **
**The Encyclopaedia Britannica, states ****“The Septuagint has four (divisions): law, history, poetry, and prophets, with the books of the Apocrypha inserted where appropriate.” **
**also states, **"The Christian Church received its Bible from Greek-speaking Jews and found the majority of its early converts in the Hellenistic world. The Greek Bible of Alexandria thus became the official Bible of the Christian community, and the overwhelming number of quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures in the New Testament are derived from it…"
Context :
**The Septuagint, which means seventy, ( LXX ) is the Greek translation of the Old Testament which was completed in Alexandria, Egypt in about 100 BC. It was begun by a group of seventy-two Hebrew scholars from Jerusalem that were sent to Alexandria to provide the Jews of the Dispersion with a copy of the scriptures in their language. (Since Alexander the Great had conquered the known world of his day, they spoke primarily Greek.)
**
**There are approximately 350 quotations in the New Testament of the Old Testament. Of these 350 quotations 300 come from the Greek Septuagint. It was the Old Testament Bible of the first century Christians. Jesus quoted from it. The Septuagint included the Deuterocanonical books which Protestants call the “Apocrypha.”
**
**The Jews in Ethiopia to this day still follow the same identical canon which is found in the Catholic Old Testament which includes these seven Deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).
**
Read more at
THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE
John
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jcrichton
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De_Maria
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Achilles6129
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The Jews never accepted the Deuterocanon as Scriptural, though. And there’s no proof that the Apostles did either: after all, they never refer to it as “Scripture.”
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jcrichton
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jcrichton
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Hi, Achilles!
…I guess your quest will remain unsolved (finding the truth); since there’s no way to prove to you that the Septuagint that was used by the Jews are Scriptures nor that the Jews that used the Septuagint were Jews nor that the findings within the Dead Sea Scrolls, which predate Christ, are the proof that Jews in deed held these books as part of the Canon.
…just consider this: why would the Sacred Scrolls be stored/safeguarded with extra material and why has it not been reported that a whole bunch of non-religious text were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls?
…yet, it is quite clear that “the blind leading the blind” is comparable to ‘those who refuse to see.’
Maran atha!
Angel
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DebChris
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As I read Acts and the letters of the Apostles, the focus is on the life of Christ, on accepting the Gospels. It is accepting the new life made possible by His death, resurrection, and the power of the Holy Spirit. The new Christians submitted to the instructions of the Apostles.
St. Paul, especially in Corinthians, deals with behavior within the assembly. Corinth was much like San Francisco of today. It was a seafaring town. Gentiles coming into the Way needed to learn the customs of the Way, how to worship in an orderly fashion.
In his letter to Timothy, St. Paul reminds him to remain faithful to the traditions handed down. Timothy has been steeped in the Scriptures since youth.
It is the Pharisees that revised the Jewish canon, removing books not meeting certain criteria as mentioned in an earlier post. It removed anything not written in Hebrew, or after the Ezra. Those were two of the criteria.
During the time of Christ, there were different Jewish sects, including the Essences. It is why you will find that some Jews had already celebrated Passover, while others had not during the time of Christ’s Passion. The Last Supper was the Passover Supper. Christ had to be taken down from the Cross before Passover. There is a history of Christians fasting on both Wednesday and Friday.
Somebody mentioned the Hanukkah celebration. The scriptural, or historical reference would be Maccabees. I find nothing offensive or ironic about a religious people celebrating a holiday not written in sacred text.
The Hellenistic Jews would have kept these writings while the Palestinians, under the Pharisees did not. It is still a historical event. The people of modern Israel would likewise celebrate its establishment after WWII.
Much of how the Catholic Mass is set up comes from Jewish tradition.
We share with our Orthodox brothers and sisters when it comes to teachings regarding Mary and the Saints. The Church has a long history that will not always be found in scripture. It will be found in the stories of men and women who have continued to live according to what has been passed down orally, as well as in writing.
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adf417
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Indeed! A position many find themselves in when absolute truth is no longer a position to be held.
Peace!!!
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