Biblical Evidence for Great Apostasy and Restoration? (Mormons)

[Robert_in_SD]

CAF Mormons, is there biblical evidence for a Great Apostasy of the Church established by Jesus Christ anciently, as well as a restoration of that Church? Also, how do Mormons deal with the oft-quoted Matt 16:18, which states that the gates of hell will not prevail?

Please lets keep this thread charitable and on topic so that it won’t be closed.

IF there was clear evidence of a total apostacy in the bible, then why would JS have had to ask the apparitions in NY which religion to join (only to be rebuffed that all were corrupt and an abomination?) Wouldn’t the apparitions have simply told him, “Read Isaiah” or some such passage, “and you will see that there has been a Great Apostacy for which you have been called (1800 years later) to effect a Restoration.”

With all due charity, I just don’t see the two positions as consistent. Perhaps I’m not sufficiently educated in LDS doctrine, and I’ll willingly concede my knowledge of JS is limited. But his inconsistencies seem to begin at a fundamental level when it comes to this doctrine. That impression, coupled with a complete lack of historical evidence, and the seemingly haphazard attempts by LDS apologists to forceibly inject the theme of a Total (versus partial or temporary) Apostacy into Scripture just has never rung true for me, despite my sincere efforts to understand the doctrine through mormon eyes.

With sincere thanks to Zerinus and the other LDS contributors to this thread, nothing presented changes my opinion. Indeed, much of the argument is rehash. But I will continue to check back to see if something new is ever presented from the LDS perspective.

Peace,
Robert

 

[PaulDupre]

IF there was clear evidence of a total apostacy in the bible, then why would JS have had to ask the apparitions in NY which religion to join (only to be rebuffed that all were corrupt and an abomination?)

You know that there are at least 9 conflicting versions of the first vision, right? In one of the pre-official ones, Joseph says that he went to inquire of the Lord because he had learned from his study of the bible that all the churches were wrong, so he went to ask what to do.

The official version in the PoGP was not even written by Smith.

 

[Returning_Home]

You know that there are at least 9 conflicting versions of the first vision, right? In one of the pre-official ones, Joseph says that he went to inquire of the Lord because he had learned from his study of the bible that all the churches were wrong, so he went to ask what to do.

The official version in the PoGP was not even written by Smith.

And let’s not forget one of my personal favorite versions, the one featuring the ‘Jewish minister’ named Joshua whose talk with Jospeh prompted him to go out to the grove and pray.

Have you noticed that the only consistant thing about all the different versions Smith told was the grove itself?

 

[zerinus]

IF there was clear evidence of a total apostacy in the bible, then why would JS have had to ask the apparitions in NY which religion to join (only to be rebuffed that all were corrupt and an abomination?) Wouldn’t the apparitions have simply told him, “Read Isaiah” or some such passage, “and you will see that there has been a Great Apostacy for which you have been called (1800 years later) to effect a Restoration.”

Joseph Smith was not a theologian. He was an uneducated, unschooled, 14 year old, American-frontier farm-boy. He went to the woods to ask God which church was right because he was confused by the messages of the various contending churches, and couldn’t make up his mind which one to join. The question you are asking would be like saying: “Why did Jesus appear to Paul in such a dramatic fashion on his way to Damascus, when He could have sent him an inspired servant to tell him to just ‘search the scriptures’ because they ‘testify of him’ (John 5:39).” Your question sounds to me like a very poor excuse for unbelief, rather than a valid criticism or objection—almost childish, if you don’t mind me saying so.

 

[Returning_Home]

Joseph Smith was not a theologian. He was an uneducated, unschooled, 14 year old, American-frontier farm-boy. He went to the woods to ask God which church was right because he was confused by the messages of the various contending churches, and couldn’t make up his mind which one to join. The question you are asking would be like saying: “Why did Jesus appear to Paul in such a dramatic fashion on his way to Damascus, when He could have sent him an inspired servant to tell him to just ‘search the scriptures’ because they ‘testify of him’ (John 5:39).”

Unfortunately, you’re trying to sidestep the fact of the matter that Smith told different versions of the story until the current accepted version, which saw print (without fanfare) in 1842, 22 years after it happened.

This begs the questions:

Why did it take him so long to tell the story when God was having him ‘restore’ his church? Wouldn’t this have helped in the beginning? This clearly seems like an after-thought.

Why couldn’t Smith tell the same story twice? It makes sense that if the Furst Vision really did happen, why did it take him at least five versions to get it right? Surely, if he saw something that would revise the thinking of all previous religious men back to the dawn of time he wouldn’t have screwed it up so badly before the 1842 printing of Times and Seasons.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Zerinus once again I have to let you know that your Church builds upon these graves. Again this has everything to do with this post. In Christ

“They were often so deep in prayer that they did not even hear that inspecting SS men had descended to the Bunker; and the voices fell silent only at the loud yelling of their visitors. When the cells were opened the poor wretches cried loudly and begged for a piece of bread and for water, which they did not receive, however. If any of the stronger ones approached the door he was immediately kicked in the stomach by the SS men, so that falling backwards on the cement floor he was instantly killed; or he was shot to death … Fr Kolbe bore up bravely, he did not beg and did not complain but raised the spirits of the others. …Since they had grown very weak, prayers were now only whispered. At every inspection, when almost all the others were now lying on the floor, Fr Kolbe was seen kneeling or standing in the centre as he looked cheerfully in the face of the SS men. Two weeks passed in this way. Meanwhile one after another they died, until only Fr Kolbe was left. This the authorities felt was too long; the cell was needed for new victims. So one day they brought in the head of the sickquarters, a German, a common criminal named Bock, who gave Fr Kolbe an injection of carbolic acid in the vein of his left arm. Fr Kolbe, with a prayer on his lips, himself gave his arm to the executioner. Unable to watch this I left under the pretext of work to be done. Immediately after the SS men with the executioner had left I returned to the cell, where I found Fr Kolbe leaning in a sitting position against the back wall with his eyes open and his head dropping sideways. His face was calm and radiant.”

The heroism of Fr Kolbe went echoing through Auschwiz. In that desert of hatred he had sown love. Mr Jozef Stemler, former director of an important cultural institute in Poland, comments: “In those conditions … in the midst of a brutalization of thought and feeling and words such as had never before been known, man indeed became a ravening wolf in his relations with other men. And into this state of affairs came the heroic self-sacrifice of Fr Maximilian. The atmosphere grew lighter, as this thunderbolt provoked its profound and salutary shock.” Jerzy Bielecki declared that Fr Kolbe’s death was “a shock filled with hope, bringing new life and strength. …It was like a powerful shaft of light in the darkness of the camp.”

“His reputation spread far and wide, through the Nazi camps and beyond. After the war newspapers all over the world were deluged with articles abouth this “saint for our times”, “saint of progress”, “giant of holiness”. Biographies were written, and everywhere there were claims of cures being brought about through his intercession. “The life and death of this one man alone,” wrote the Polish bishops, “can be proof and witness of the fact that the love of God can overcome the greatest hatred, the greatest injustice, evern death itself.” The demands for his beatification became insistent, and at last on 12 Augsut 1947 proceedings started. Seventy-five witnesses were questioned. His cause was introduced on 16 March 1960. When all the usual objections had been overcome, the promoter spoke of the “charm of this magnificent fool.” On 17 October 1971, Maximilian Kolbe was beatified. Like his master Jesus Christ he had loved his fellow-men to the point of sacrificing his life for them. “Greater love hath no man than this …” and these were the opening words of the papal decree introducing the process of beatification. Fr Kolbe’s canonisation was not long delayed. It was the Pope from Poland, John Paul II, who had the joy of declaring his compatriot a saint on 10 October 1982.”

St Maximilian Kolbe’s feast day is 14 August, the day before the Feast of the Assumption of Our Lady.
(Emphasis added

Because Zerinus the Catholic Church holds that men like this are very much alive in Jesus we ask:
St Maximilian Mary Kolbe, pray for us.
From:
catholic-pages.com/saints/st_maximilian.asp

 

[Returning_Home]

Zerinus once again I have to let you know that your Church builds upon these graves. Again this has everything to do with this post. In Christ

I really don’t see how; accusing Mormonism of following false doctrine is one thing, but accusing them of somehow being Nazi sympathizers is quite another. I know of no Mormon or Catholic who approved of the Holocaust.

Your post was inflammatory, inappropriate, and will get the thread shut down if you continue.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I really don’t see how; accusing Mormonism of following false doctrine is one thing, but accusing them of somehow being Nazi sympathizers is quite another. I know of no Mormon or Catholic who approved of the Holocaust.

Your post was inflammatory, inappropriate, and will get the thread shut down if you continue.

In saying “your Church builds upon these graves” Catholic-rcia is not accusing the LDS of being Nazi sympathizers, s/he is saying that the LDS church is built on the lives of the Saints just like ours

Here is part of the first post on the subject:

Think about what your LDS church has attempted to build upon

I was working in my yard today and started thinking how the Mormon hierarchies have pretty much erased 2000 years of Christian Saints from their members. I believe if you were to make a study of the Saints of the Church spanning 2000 years you would begin to see that the Priesthood authority (Jesus) has always remained present in their lives because of their devotion to Him. . What is sad is that it is these souls that gave their lives to bring Christ to you. They are not just forgotten in the LDS Church they are hidden from the children. What LDS Parent would give one of their sons or daughters a book on the lives of Catholic Saints?
As LDS you have built your church upon the graves of the Authentic Saints and in many ways have denied their devotion to Jesus from your Church, whole lives thrown out, the very Body of Christ in the hopes that they may be forgotten. But today they cried out to me in order for me to mention their very existence and strange as it may seem, and you can believe it or not, they are all praying for you. This is what they do, they pray for you.

 

[Returning_Home]

In saying “your Church builds upon these graves” Catholic-rcia is not accusing the LDS of being Nazi sympathizers, s/he is saying that the LDS church is built on the lives of the Saints just like ours

No, it actually isn’t. Catholicism uses saints of those who have died and been beatified (SP?) but the LDS call themselves ‘saints,’ thus “Latter-Day Saints.” Early Christians called themselves and each other saints and that the LDS does the same thing is just another way of trying to claim the mantle of Christianity for themselves alone.

And his point was lost while trying to make it because it was too long and involved for its own good; no, I realize that he wasn’t trying to say they were Nazi sympathizers per se, but since perception has replaced reality, this is how it can easily appear. ‘Nazi’ is always going to be an hot-button term that will raise ire in some, no matter how it’s used.

 

[LongJourney]

, I realize that he wasn’t trying to say they were Nazi sympathizers per se, but since perception has replaced reality, this is how it can easily appear. ‘Nazi’ is always going to be an hot-button term that will raise ire in some, no matter how it’s used.

One line of Mormon reasoning leads into something closely resembling Nazism. The relationship between Mormons and Nazis is that LDS are** proto-Nazi**. There are many racist and anti-Semitic attitudes expressed in the BoM. However, Mormons do not believe in cultural homogeneity through genocide. They believe in establishing cultural homogeneity through conversion, and that can be through any means possible. (Lies, providing for peoples’ needs only if they convert, social pressure, ostracism, etc) Generally, people of the United States believe in assimilation with accommodation That is, the host culture changes and adapts as new immigrants assimilate.

That said, the discovery of the concentration camps, the photos and stories were abhorrent to Mormons, as they should be to any normal people.

The German Mormons were reasonably comfortable living in WWII Germany. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_H%C3%BCbener One young Mormon was excommunicated by the LDS community for his activities against the Third Reich.

This research paper examines the level of comfort that the LDS had with the early Third Reich:
eucenter.tamu.edu/Publications/ResearchPapers/Nelson.pdf

There is a relationship between Mormonism and Nazism. However, it is not a direct one, and only entertained by one cultural aspect of Mormonism. It is not shared by all LDS.

We must also remember that some practicing Catholics were participants in the Third Reich.

I was raised with great shame of my German last name, yet few LDS know of, or acknowledge the level of sympathy their leaders and the German Mormons had with the Nazis.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I can see how this happened. I was simply showing a person in time who gave all for Jesus, nothing to do with the Nazis. Although some of them may also be Saints in heaven just as Saint Paul certainly is. I also know that God loved each one of them as He loves us. Did He not love Judas? We are all sinners in transition.

But the confusion did get me thinking. I am attempting to put faces on real people for us and the LDS. When ever a people claimS superiority, in this post the Great Apostasy they do not want to place real faces on those they are claiming superiority over. In the sense of the Catholic Priest hood it is not about being a better breed of people, rather its about knowing we are not. Just loved and saved.

It is always easier to crucify another when they do not have a face, eyes and each ones personal history to gaze into. Such as the Zazis regime regarding the Jew. I am not just pointing this out to the LDS here but to myself as well. When it is all said and done we choose what is true to ourselves. If this aligns with the Catholic faith then we become Catholic. You will find this on the first page of my site dedicated to placing a face on the Catholic Church www.utahmission.com

God always speaks the truth to us. Jesus described himself as “the way, the truth and the life” (John 14: 6-11). God encourages us to live in His truth through Jesus Christ, within the Trinity. Faith cannot be built upon a false pretense. Faith-seeking is one of the oldest preoccupations of the human mind. We seek to understand as best we can God our Creator and His love for each one of us. At one time or another we all may feel alone. Some of us have been rejected; some of us have rejected another. Some have come against great trials and given up on life altogether.

It is our hope that we can share the Love of Christ with you, because He can help our lives become happier and more meaningful. The peace that Christ can bring when we come to Him for strength in our suffering and our joy can replace every pill ever made, every drink ever drank and every new age psychiatrist that ever lived.

Jesus did not come to condemn you or me; Jesus came as a physician to heal us, to save us. As we all say together at Mass “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the Word and I shall be healed. All sinners are welcome in God’s Church. To know God’s love through Jesus is the ability to give Gods love to others. To help others find a special place in this life where one can go to receive unconditional love that only God, through Jesus can give. To find peace, true happiness in good times as well as in bad times.

Put an honest face on the Catholic Church, if you were honest with yourself I believe one would have no choice than to enter. This is what I am posting about. The Great Apostasy theory strikes hard to those who can see and understand the many faces of Christianity .

 

[Returning_Home]

One line of Mormon reasoning leads into something closely resembling Nazism. The relationship between Mormons and Nazis is that LDS are** proto-Nazi**. There are many racist and anti-Semitic attitudes expressed in the BoM. However, Mormons do not believe in cultural homogeneity through genocide. They believe in establishing cultural homogeneity through conversion, and that can be through any means possible. (Lies, providing for peoples’ needs only if they convert, social pressure, ostracism, etc) Generally, people of the United States believe in assimilation with accommodation .

I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one who drew those same comparisons between Nazism and Mormonsim, primarily the near-fanatical devotion of some to a false god or false doctrine.

That the BOM is exclusive to itself alone and modern Mormonism’s attempts to appear Christian are at odds and show that it’s an evolution, not a restoration. No, none advocate genocide for even us “anti-Mormons” that I’m aware of, but there’s a distinct and palpable sense of superiority to those non-white groups, even though they may be adequately represented in their own church.

I saw an interview with Donny Osmond from the early or mid 1970s and he clearly parroted the pre-1978 revelation about blacks attaining the priesthood position, saying something much like this: “There’s no church in existance today that can do more for the Negro than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (I’m looking for the link)

And I personally witnessed two returned missionaries reenacting the scene in Roots where LeVar Burton’s Kunte Kinte was being asked his name, refusing at first and being beaten until he relented and told them his name. Those two hyaenas thought it was the funniest thing ever. Where would they have gotten the impression that such a thing was appropriate and acceptable if not through the examples of their peers or elders in the church?

 

[mtolympus]

Latter-day Saints, Catholics and other conservative Christians share common values such as the sanctity of life, the importance of the traditional family, high moral standards, patriotism, and a sincere belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Latter-day Saints believe there was a restoration (re-establishment) of the original church established by Jesus Christ, and that he lives and is indeed the Savior of mankind; and that he has appeared on earth to usher in “the times of restitution of all things” in preparation for “when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” (Acts 3:19-21). Any evidence of this restoration is also dynamic evidence that traditional Christianity has been right all along concerning the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the reality of his second coming. It is true that the members of the Church that Christ established were called Saints (Col 1:2) however our message is open to all who will listen. This thread is titled “Biblical Evidence.” Please include biblical references to support your argument and I will do the same.

 

[Returning_Home]

Latter-day Saints, Catholics and other conservative Christians share common values such as the sanctity of life, the importance of the traditional family, high moral standards, patriotism, and a sincere belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Latter-day Saints believe there was a restoration (re-establishment) of the original church established by Jesus Christ, and that he lives and is indeed the Savior of mankind; and that he has appeared on earth to usher in “the times of restitution of all things” in preparation for “when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” (Acts 3:19-21). Any evidence of this restoration is also dynamic evidence that traditional Christianity has been right all along concerning the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the reality of his second coming. It is true that the members of the Church that Christ established were called Saints (Col 1:2) however our message is open to all who will listen. This thread is titled “Biblical Evidence.” Please include biblical references to support your argument and I will do the same.

Unfortunately, while Christians and Mormons have some common traits, this does little to cover the fact that there’s no Biblical evidence, as shown that very same thread, to support Mormonism. The only way you can make any of it work is to misinterpret, take out of context, or deliberately warp the original meaning.

Your use of the Bible is limited and selective because the church holds it to be much less reliable than the BOM, which goes directly against the Bible in which 1 Timothy 4:1-2 tells us that *some *shall depart the faith. Some is not all, is it? And to hold such a position is to also call Peter a liar when he told us that: “…the word of the Lord endureth forever.” (1 Peter 1:25) Forever isn’t a limited time, is it?

What you cannot rectify here, in spite of similarities between us, is the fact that Joseph Smith was a liar, a fraud, an adulterer, and ultimately a murderer. Mormons, therefore, follow the gospel of Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ. The Mormon jesus is a weakling, a moron, and a product of incest and I have no interest in that message. You, however, are always welcome to become a true Christian and get to know the one true, real, and living God.

And I hope you do.

 

[mtolympus]

Did I take Acts 3:19-21 out of context?

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which was before preached unto you: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by all the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19-21)

The restitution of all things sounds like a fairly important event! I definitely agree with Peter “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:25). We believe that God has spoken to man through prophets by revelation from the time of Adam until the time of the Apostles. However, when the apostles were killed revelation ceased.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.” (Amos 8:11-12).

A famine of hearing the word of the Lord (revelation) is not a good or normal situation. However, the bible said this famine would be sent by God! If the word of God is to “endure forever”, then there must be a “restitution of all things” including revelation.

I don’t know anyone who believes in the God described by Returning Home however he would do well to describe his own God using the Bible and I will do the same. My only purpose in writing is to show that Latter-day Saints are Christians, we believe the Bible and that all Christians should work together in the cause of Christ.

 

[PeanutBono]

Mormons and Nazi’s Seriously? I could believe an Evangelical or a Southern Baptist saying that but a Catholic? Come on I hold guys in much much higher regard than that.

 

[LongJourney]

I do not equate them. I am saying that there are LDS who, believing that they are following the teaching of their church, do hold to beliefs that are proto-Nazi in character. You are obviously not one of them. Perhaps if you were to read this:

cassiusuniversity.wordpress.com/mcb/

you might understand better. I call the LDS church to start excommunicating their heretics on the far political right.

 

[PeanutBono]

I do not equate them. I am saying that there are LDS who, believing that they are following the teaching of their church, do hold to beliefs that are proto-Nazi in character. You are obviously not one of them. Perhaps if you were to read this:

cassiusuniversity.wordpress.com/mcb/

you might understand better. I call the LDS church to start excommunicating their heretics on the far political right.

I went to the link as it looked legitimate with the name university in it, however a google search shows no record of this as a university and I really like that Mr. Gadianton Robber is the Dean! Tactics like this are counterfeit.
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=954eee9ba42fe010VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
I do agree however with you that we have a growing group on the far right that should be very mindful of the teachings of Christ and that if they continue in this path the consequences will be dire.

 

[LongJourney]

I do agree however with you that we have a growing group on the far right that should be very mindful of the teachings of Christ and that if they continue in this path the consequences will be dire.

I thank you.

No, not counterfeit, just a parody. LDS have so much difficulty understanding satire.

 

[PeanutBono]

I thank you.

No, not counterfeit, just a parody. LDS have so much difficulty understanding satire.

Satire away I can handle it, You can poke fun at us make fun of JS or BY all fair game. We both agree that Satire around the Savior would not be greeted well or appreicated but have it on all other things. Just be clear on what is Satire and what is an accusation.