Biblical Evidence for Great Apostasy and Restoration? (Mormons)

[LongJourney]

Satire around the Savior would not be greeted well or appreciated but have it on all other things.

Yes, that would amount to blasphemy.

 

[PaulDupre]

Did I take Acts 3:19-21 out of context?

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which was before preached unto you: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by all the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19-21)

Yes, you completely missed the point of the passage. It is not surprising since your church insists on using the easily-misunderstood KJV. Personally I believe that’s why they still use it - so they can keep their members confused and misdirected.

More recent translations say:

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. (Acts 3:19-21, NIV)

The “restitution” or “restoration” of all things does not occur in either translation until the second coming of Christ. So it could not be a prophecy of Joseph Smith’s “restoration” as the Mormons like to claim.

 

[Returning_Home]

Did I take Acts 3:19-21 out of context?

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which was before preached unto you: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by all the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19-21)

I didn’t say you took it out of context, but rather that you’re trying to create another entire collection of ‘scripture’ originating from God through that one word: “restitution.”

Not only that, but, in light of LeGrand Richard’s book, A Marvelous Work And a Wonder (p 82, 1979 edition), you got the implication of ‘restitution’ wrong anyway; he makes it clear that the restitution refers to the restoration of the priesthoods.

The restitution of all things sounds like a fairly important event! I definitely agree with Peter “But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:25). We believe that God has spoken to man through prophets by revelation from the time of Adam until the time of the Apostles. However, when the apostles were killed revelation ceased.

I agree, but this is up to God, not Joseph Smith. Since this all relies on the alleged apostacy, for which there’s not one iota of evidence and the Bible makes it clear that his Word will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8, 1 Peter 1:23-25) and that only some will depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1-2), you have nothing but the church’s word for it. After all, if the BOM is the most correct book of any on earth and a man can get nearer to God through it than any other book ( HOTC 4:461), why do we see nothing of any major importance included that’s not in the Bible?

Your misuse of 1 Peter 1:25 undermines your own claims of your church being a ‘restoration.’ If the Word of God were to endure forever, there would’ve been no apostacy and therefore no need for a restoration.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.” (Amos 8:11-12).

A famine of hearing the word of the Lord (revelation) is not a good or normal situation. However, the bible said this famine would be sent by God! If the word of God is to “endure forever”, then there must be a “restitution of all things” including revelation.

That’s a big leap, assuming that the Word of God actually refers to revelation because there’s no evidence to support that it means that at all, but let’s go there, shall we?

We have, for example, Joseph Smith making it clear that the Civil War (D&C 87:1-6) would result in the end of the world, which has yet to happen because no war in the future will have naything to do with that particular conflict. We see that Smith Lyman Johnson, John Boynton, and William Smith would all be alive and in good standing with the church when the savior returned (HOTC 2:191 and 5:336), yet all three were excomminucated and died without seeing the Second Coming, didn’t they? And finally, we find Smith making it clear that the temple at Independence, MO would be built in that generation’s lifetime (D&C 84:1-5), even though this has yet to happen and the church doesn’t even own the land now.

That all said, if yours is the restoration of Christ’s church and revelation is so important, why didn’t the founder of Mormonism get even one correct in his lifetime? And how many false prophecies does it take to be considered a false prophet?

 

[Returning_Home]

I don’t know anyone who believes in the God described by Returning Home however he would do well to describe his own God using the Bible and I will do the same. My only purpose in writing is to show that Latter-day Saints are Christians, we believe the Bible and that all Christians should work together in the cause of Christ.

Mormons are Christians in the same way that I’m Queen Victoria but if so, why would you want to work alongside the people belonging to the church founded by Satan (1 Nephi 14 chapter heading, verses1-17)? Since we’re so very wrong in our abominations before God (Joseph Smith-History 1:18), you shouldn’t want anything to do with us, yet here you are, plying Mormonism as fact.

But let’s go in that direction, shall we? Since yours is the only true church on earth, your prophet speaks for God (D&C 21:4-5), and he cannot lead us astray (Gospel Principles, see full quote below **), let’s see what he says about the Bible, shall we?

“Unlike the Bible, which has passed through generations of copyists, translators, and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text, the BOM came from writer to reader in just one inspired step of translation.” (President Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, Jan 1992, p 5)

So, if your claims about the prophet of the church are true, it seems as though even God doesn’t believe that the Bible’s correct.

In fact, Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith makes it clear that the Bible, before he was born, was quite in error: “…Joseph spent about three years going through the Bible, amking thousands of corrections to the text and restoring information that had been lost.” (p 208, 2007 edition)

This begs the question: why, if you believe that the Bible is missing many 'plain and precious things," (1 Nephi 13:26-42) don’t you use the Joseph Smith Translation (JST)?

**"We should follow his inspired teachings completely. We should not choose to follow part of his inspired counsel and discard that which is unpleasant or difficult. The Lord commanded us to follow the inspired teachings of his prophet:
'Thou shalt give heed unto all his (the prophet’s) words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
‘For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, all patience and faith’ (D&C 21:4-5).
“The Lord will never allow the President of the Church to lead us astray.” (entire quote from Gospel Principles, pps 49-50, 1996 edition)

 

[mtolympus]

I call the LDS church to start excommunicating their heretics on the far political right.

If we throw out all those in our church that you consider to be on the far political right, don’t you think Harry Reid will get lonely?

 

[stormy99]

The Catholic Church! The Catholic Church is a respectable and honorable institution that has preserved the scriptures and many Christian values, doctrines, and traditions over the centuries; and deserves credit for doing that. But it does not prove that they had the authority and the priesthood that they claimed.

The authority came directly from Jesus to Peter, the Rock, and to the disciples…how can that be denied…

It isn’t possible that one man translating gold plates could say the CC had no authority or priesthood when it is clear they do.

The Catholic Church has all one needs to be communion for Jesus and God…all the sacraments…

Restoration arguments fall short.

stormy

 

[simspt]

I agree 100%! I have also said a billion times to Mormons who believe in a so-called Great Apostasy,where are the extensive and exhaustive historical writings from the past 2,000 years supporting such a ‘process’ happened against Christ Church?

Mormons and Fundamentalists make interesting bedfellows who attempt to use the OT and Church Fathers to justify their erroneus Great Apostasy beliefs. In both cases it boils down to interpretation. Nothing new,the Gnostics did it by rejecting the Church’s interpretation of the OT or completly rejecting the OT all together (marcion). Now you have Mormons rejecting the Church’s interpretation of its own writings with their novel interpretations. evidence please!!!

 

[LongJourney]

If we throw out all those in our church that you consider to be on the far political right, don’t you think Harry Reid will get lonely?

Well, he could support more reasonable LDS people in their adventures into the crazy realm of politics.

 

[mtolympus]

Yes, you completely missed the point of the passage. It is not surprising since your church insists on using the easily-misunderstood KJV. Personally I believe that’s why they still use it - so they can keep their members confused and misdirected.

Are you saying that the Bible may sometimes be confusing because it was not always translated correctly? Hey, I thought that was supposed to be our line!

More recent translations say:

The “restitution” or “restoration” of all things does not occur in either translation until the second coming of Christ. So it could not be a prophecy of Joseph Smith’s “restoration” as the Mormons like to claim.

“He (Jesus) must remain in heaven until the time God will restore everything.” I am fine with this quote from the NIV. Both KJV and NIV indicate a restitution or “God will restore everything” prior to the second coming. The restoration is to prepare the world for the great Advent that Christians have been waiting for 2000 years! John was one of the last living apostles. He had been banned to the Isle of Patmos when he saw this in his great revelation:

“And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; *for the hour of his judgment is come.” *(Rev. 14:6-7) (emphasis added)

 

[mtolympus]

Mormons are Christians in the same way that I’m Queen Victoria but if so, why would you want to work alongside the people belonging to the church founded by Satan (1 Nephi 14 chapter heading, verses1-17)? Since we’re so very wrong in our abominations before God (Joseph Smith-History 1:18), you shouldn’t want anything to do with us, yet here you are, plying Mormonism as fact.

Dear Sister Victoria,

I believe we need to move past the stern rhetoric of the past and work together in the cause of Christ. Here is an example from an ldsnewsroom article of 28 May 2008 of how our two churches are working together:

“The tradition of collaboration between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Catholic Relief Services goes back over 20 years. During the great Ethiopia famine of the mid-80s, the LDS church was both forthcoming and most generous in its collaboration with Catholic Relief Services operations. And ever since that time, a bond was struck that carried our collaboration into Russia, the Far East, other parts of Africa and to Eastern Europe.”

We can have a vigorous debate on doctrine and we may never agree with each other, but I truly believe that before Christ returns we must try to understand each other and learn to love each other. When Christ returns he will divide the sheep from the goats. (Matt 25:32) What he will say to all of us (regardless of which church we may belong): “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matt 25: 40)

 

[mtolympus]

We have, for example, Joseph Smith making it clear that the Civil War (D&C 87:1-6) would result in the end of the world, which has yet to happen because no war in the future will have naything to do with that particular conflict.

This is a very interesting prophecy for anyone who wants to understand it. But first you must actually read it in the 87th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants. This prophecy is not only about the Civil War, but it is about “the wars.” It is quite amazing as it was given in 1832. If anyone is interested enough to read it, I have a couple of hints that may be of help in understanding it.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Dear Sister Victoria,

I believe we need to move past the stern rhetoric of the past and work together in the cause of Christ. Here is an example from an ldsnewsroom article of 28 May 2008 of how our two churches are working together:

“The tradition of collaboration between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Catholic Relief Services goes back over 20 years. During the great Ethiopia famine of the mid-80s, the LDS church was both forthcoming and most generous in its collaboration with Catholic Relief Services operations. And ever since that time, a bond was struck that carried our collaboration into Russia, the Far East, other parts of Africa and to Eastern Europe.”

We can have a vigorous debate on doctrine and we may never agree with each other, but I truly believe that before Christ returns we must try to understand each other and learn to love each other. When Christ returns he will divide the sheep from the goats. (Matt 25:32) What he will say to all of us (regardless of which church we may belong): “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matt 25: 40)

When I was twenty I saw a homeless man across the street and it was cold and raining. He was barefoot with sores not only on his feet but on his face and hands. he had no coat. I walked across the street and gave him my coat. How should I feel about this? What took place and where do you see the possibility for great sin? I was not Catholic then so I had no clue.

On another note I was told two days ago this by and LDS Bishop. He told me about a Gospel message on not working on Sunday. He told me that if one refrains from working on Sunday they will actually be blessed and make more money. As a Catholic I walked away feeling sad. Do you know why? Today I reminded him of the message he gave me and I asked him “if I don’t work on Friday and Saturday will I make even more? He did not get it. If he did he may have felt sad as well. I hope

Mother Tersa used pride in others to help the poor, some gave donations so others could see their goodness, Why not use this to feed others. God takes what is bad and turns it into a good. One can give a homeless man a coat, making the one giving feel even better than the one receiving. This one giving would be a goat.

It all comes down to the first and most important commandment.
If you get this wrong everything else is wrong, all the others are broken in one way or another.
It does not matter how good one is if they don’t have a great sense of the most Holy Trinity in their lives. Without it in you front and center you may think you are alive, but really you are dead.
It is in Confession that one receives the bread of life, its in receiving Eucharist that one understands the above.

 

[catholic-rcia]

“but I truly believe that before Christ returns we must try to understand each other and learn to love each other.”
*The only way I can love the LDS is because I understand Jesus, because of this I am pretty much covered. I can only love you because of His love for you through me. I have no love in me apart from love itself…Jesus. For myself I do understand the LDS and I see the sin in your beliefs. I see no sin in Catholic Beliefs at all because they are of Christ. We are His body… But yes I really do love you and all the others. Really! All I have to do is be reminded by Jesus that He loves all the same way He loves me. But if you are just a tool living on transactions without tuning to Christ as your only God than the first Commandment is broken. Unless one repents through the Sacrament of Confession one will never know the love of our God Jesus and can be lost forever. But one needs to be aware of these truths and then reject them in order to be separated from God forever. In the end Gods Mercy will be available for those who accept it in sincerity. *
**
God bless
www.utahmission.com
**

 

[LongJourney]

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/87

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then a war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

I wish that if you want us to read something from Mormon scriptures, you would quote it, rather than asking us if we want an interpretation of it before we read it. The Civil War could easily have been predicted. However, it did not lead to a World War. That came 50 years later. This “prophecy” is the reason why you call yourselves “Latter-Day Saints.” Basically, some LDS try to capitalize on chaos and dissent in order to gain power, as the “good guys.” If this requires adding to the chaos and dissent, then, in their way of thinking, it is justified. That is what the concept of self-fulfilling prophecy is all about. And the blood-shed, and genocide of the BoM, in some LDS minds, are not a message about the dangers of inter-cultural conflict, human pride, and human nature.

 

[flyonthewall]

When I was twenty I saw a homeless man across the street and it was cold and raining. He was barefoot with sores not only on his feet but on his face and hands. he had no coat. I walked across the street and gave him my coat. How should I feel about this? What took place and where do you see the possibility for great sin? I was not Catholic then so I had no clue.

On another note I was told two days ago this by and LDS Bishop. He told me about a Gospel message on not working on Sunday. He told me that if one refrains from working on Sunday they will actually be blessed and make more money. As a Catholic I walked away feeling sad. Do you know why? Today I reminded him of the message he gave me and I asked him “if I don’t work on Friday and Saturday will I make even more? He did not get it. If he did he may have felt sad as well. I hope

Mother Tersa used pride in others to help the poor, some gave donations so others could see their goodness, Why not use this to feed others. God takes what is bad and turns it into a good. One can give a homeless man a coat, making the one giving feel even better than the one receiving. This one giving would be a goat.

It all comes down to the first and most important commandment.
If you get this wrong everything else is wrong, all the others are broken in one way or another.
It does not matter how good one is if they don’t have a great sense of the most Holy Trinity in their lives. Without it in you front and center you may think you are alive, but really you are dead.
It is in Confession that one receives the bread of life, its in receiving Eucharist that one understands the above.

It is very apparent that you missed the point, and it is you that did not “get it”.
It is the Lord that commanded that we work 6 days and rest on the 7th, and to keep the sabbath day holy. We believe this.
We are encouraged NOT to work on Sunday, as that is the sabbath. The sabbath day is to be used for worship and to be engaged in the Lord’s service.
Now we realize there are some occupations that MUST work 24/7, like doctors, nurses, police officers, fire fighters etc, However, no one is condemned for choosing to work on Sunday.
There are many testimonies from people, who instead of working on Sunday, chose not to, and ended up losing their job, but gaining another that put them in a better position than if they had stayed with the job that required them to work on Sunday.
We beleive we are blessed when we obey the Lord. It may not always be with a better job, but maybe with a stronger faith or something else.
And before you comment, no, the service of the Lord is not limited to Sunday’s but Sundays are especially set apart for the Lord/s service.

The fact that you asked the question you did, shows that you missed the point of what was being said.

 

[catholic-rcia]

It is very apparent that you missed the point, and it is you that did not “get it”.
It is the Lord that commanded that we work 6 days and rest on the 7th, and to keep the sabbath day holy. We believe this.
We are encouraged NOT to work on Sunday, as that is the sabbath. The sabbath day is to be used for worship and to be engaged in the Lord’s service.
Now we realize there are some occupations that MUST work 24/7, like doctors, nurses, police officers, fire fighters etc, However, no one is condemned for choosing to work on Sunday.
There are many testimonies from people, who instead of working on Sunday, chose not to, and ended up losing their job, but gaining another that put them in a better position than if they had stayed with the job that required them to work on Sunday.
We beleive we are blessed when we obey the Lord. It may not always be with a better job, but maybe with a stronger faith or something else.
And before you comment, no, the service of the Lord is not limited to Sunday’s but Sundays are especially set apart for the Lord/s service.

The fact that you asked the question you did, shows that you missed the point of what was being said.

The first job I had when I moved to Utah the owner said this knowing I was Catholic.
“If you become Mormon and pay your 10% in tithing you will be blessed and make more money. He said it happened to him. I also hear this from those who enteterd a casino and won. But what about the others who suffer greatly?

I find it astonishing that one would even consider using more money as a reason for not working on Sundays or going to Church. Or use this as a message of faith or even a testimony. I find Job to be a great example. Many Catholic Christians have been murdered for Sunday worship and they are good with it. Blessing we speak of are not so much earthy, of this world as they are spiritual in nature. I do get it, I see it here and know how this type of temptation is used here. I know where it comes from, not from God. It was a poor attempt to evangelize me. Reminded me of Jesus in the desert.

The message is for the love of God only, in good times and in bad times. The fact that He is by our side is the only thig that really matters. And yes we do have the Daily Mass, our daily bread but Sunday is unique and very special.

More money…bad gospel message.

The spirit in me moved me in this direction as he / LDS bishop was speaking to me about Sunday and more money.

 

[dianaiad]

I thank you.

No, not counterfeit, just a parody. LDS have so much difficulty understanding satire.

LJ, really?

…by the way, there is a very big difference between satire–and mean spirited attacks. There is also a huge difference between critical thinking, which can result in excellent satire (Jonathan Swift and his A Modest Proposal) and sarcasm–which is that one step too far. Satire is designed to call attention to absurdities in order to accomplish change. Sarcasm is simply a knife, used to destroy.

The first requires thought, talent, and an ability to walk a very fine rhetorical line. The second simply requires a facility with language and a willingness to misuse it.

…and claiming that because one Mormon doesn’t ‘get’ the joke ALL Mormons 'have difficulty understanding satire," well…isn’t that like saying that because I met a Catholic once who was a member of the flat earth society (and since the Flat Earth Society originated in the town where I live, trust me, I’ve met several…) that all Catholics believe that the earth is flat, that the moon landing was special effects, and that it’s 'turtles all the way down?"

Same logic.

 

[dianaiad]

If we throw out all those in our church that you consider to be on the far political right, don’t you think Harry Reid will get lonely?

(grin…making a finger mark in the air…)

That’s one for our side.

 

[mtolympus]

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/87
I wish that if you want us to read something from Mormon scriptures, you would quote it, rather than asking us if we want an interpretation of it before we read it.

Sorry. I read somewhere in the website rules not to quote scripture that may not be accepted by the Catholic Church. I realize I am a guest on your website which I apprecate very much.

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/87
The Civil War could easily have been predicted. However, it did not lead to a World War. That came 50 years later.

As a life long member of the LDS Church I have never heard this prophecy mentioned in church. It certainly is not a part of any of our missionary lessons. It is available for individual study for anyone who may be interested. My hints are from my own personal study. 1- This is not only about the Civil War it is about “the wars that will shortly come to pass beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina.” (emphasis added) 2- If you understand that the word “they” in verse three refers to Great Britain and not to the Southern States you will see that the last part of verse three is talking about the two World Wars. 3- Verse four takes place “after many days” and I believe this is yet in the future.

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/87
This “prophecy” is the reason why you call yourselves “Latter-Day Saints.”

This prophecy has absolutly nothing to do with the reason we call ourselves Latter-day Saints."

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/87
Basically, some LDS try to capitalize on chaos and dissent in order to gain power, as the “good guys.” If this requires adding to the chaos and dissent, then, in their way of thinking, it is justified. That is what the concept of self-fulfilling prophecy is all about. And the blood-shed, and genocide of the BoM, in some LDS minds, are not a message about the dangers of inter-cultural conflict, human pride, and human nature.

You can be the “good guys” too, but the LDS are not the enemy. I believe that all Christians need to unite in the cause of Christ.

 

[LongJourney]

I believe that all Christians need to unite in the cause of Christ.

That would be nice. Many LDS are not as idealistic as you. And the scales have been removed from my eyes. I am no longer idealistic. LDS tend to be so aggressive in imposing their beliefs on others, and so judgmental of non-Mormons, and so contentious about differences in doctrines and interpretations of history, that such unity in purpose is unlikely to happen on a large scale within my lifetime. All LDS need to prove themselves to be deserving of my respect. Blanket trust is not warranted.