Biblical Evidence for Great Apostasy and Restoration? (Mormons)

[Javl]

Zerinus:

I have read your article on the “Great Apostacy” and I must admit that it is well written. But, it begs too many questions.

If Jesus promised to stay with and protect His Church, why didn’t he do so and not wait until 1830?

If Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to take and teach and lead the Church, why didn’t He do so?

Have you read the writings of and about the Church by the Church Fathers ( all of them ).

Have you ever read “City of God” by Augustine? Have you referenced any of the writings of Thomas-a-Becket, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More?

Have you bothered to reasearch all the heresies that came to fore after the deaths of the Apostles and the Church’s battles to correct them?

These are only some of the questions. As for Constantine convening a council an being the so called “first Pope”, have you bothered to find out why?

There was no “Great Apostacy” as claimed by the LDS Church. There never was and never will be. I agree that many within the Church have apostacized, but that the Church itself apostacized? Never. If you believe that Jesus is God and that He promised to protect His Church, then it can NEVER apostacize. Also if you know the history of the Church, every so often someone comes up with the claim that the Catholic Church is wrong, has apostacized, or God has told him/her to start a new church to replace the Catholic Church ( more like as not under the promptings of Satan ). These result in actions that last a while and then die out. They are all false because the Catholic Church is still here after 2000 years. I’d rather believe God’s word than someone who claims otherwise.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Todd520]

Why don’t you look at it in the perspective of receiving blessings from God?

• In times past the blessing might have been a good crop of wheat, or apples.
• In times past the blessing might have been a healthy family, without mortality.

In current times, about <1% of us farm. So our modern blessings connect quickly with money - new job, selling house, etc.

Come to think of it, when in history haven’t blessings related to health or material gain

The first job I had when I moved to Utah the owner said this knowing I was Catholic.
“If you become Mormon and pay your 10% in tithing you will be blessed and make more money. He said it happened to him. I also hear this from those who enteterd a casino and won. But what about the others who suffer greatly?

I find it astonishing that one would even consider using more money as a reason for not working on Sundays or going to Church. Or use this as a message of faith or even a testimony. I find Job to be a great example. Many Catholic Christians have been murdered for Sunday worship and they are good with it. Blessing we speak of are not so much earthy, of this world as they are spiritual in nature. I do get it, I see it here and know how this type of temptation is used here. I know where it comes from, not from God. It was a poor attempt to evangelize me. Reminded me of Jesus in the desert.

The message is for the love of God only, in good times and in bad times. The fact that He is by our side is the only thig that really matters. And yes we do have the Daily Mass, our daily bread but Sunday is unique and very special.

More money…bad gospel message.

The spirit in me moved me in this direction as he / LDS bishop was speaking to me about Sunday and more money.

 

[dianaiad]

That would be nice. Many LDS are not as idealistic as you. And the scales have been removed from my eyes. I am no longer idealistic. LDS tend to be so aggressive in imposing their beliefs on others, and so judgmental of non-Mormons, and so contentious about differences in doctrines and interpretations of history, that such unity in purpose is unlikely to happen on a large scale within my lifetime. All LDS need to prove themselves to be deserving of my respect. Blanket trust is not warranted.

LJ, with all the respect in the world, the most aggression I have seen in any interaction between you and Latter-day Saints comes from—well, not the Latter-day Saints.

As well, given the tenor of most of your posts regarding Mormonism, it’s obvious that there isn’t any way we could ‘earn’ your respect. You have condemned all for the actions of a few; and if you can’t see the injustice in that, then nothing any of us could do would ‘earn’ your respect.

Just consider for a moment whether, using the standards you are imposing upon us, whether any group is worthy of respect.

 

[LongJourney]

So our modern blessings connect quickly with money - new job, selling house, etc. Come to think of it, when in history haven’t blessings related to health or material gain

In Mormon-dominated areas of the country, the blessings of converting to Mormonism are more closely associated with Mormon preference. Mormons would rather buy a house from a Mormon, hire a Mormon, give good job reviews to a Mormon, facilitate job success for a Mormon, deliver superior social service assistance to a Mormon, etc and etc. Sort of like selling one’s soul to the devil, if you want to use hyperbole.

 

[dianaiad]

In Mormon-dominated areas of the country, the blessings of converting to Mormonism are more closely associated with Mormon preference. Mormons would rather buy a house from a Mormon, hire a Mormon, give good job reviews to a Mormon, facilitate job success for a Mormon, deliver superior social service assistance to a Mormon, etc and etc. Sort of like selling one’s soul to the devil, if you want to use hyperbole.

I don’t.

Want to use hyperbole, that is. However, you are correct; people prefer to give business to those who are in one’s group. It’s called ‘networking,’ and is a long standing and honored way of doing business…and yes, Mormons do this.

So do Catholics and Baptists and Lutherans and Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Muslims and…and…and…

In fact, it is so prevalent that for most of Catholic history, the idea was enshrined in tradition…even in papal declarations; you didn’t do business with those who were not “Christian” (meaning, ‘Catholic.’)

It’s a natural human desire, to trust those who are most like oneself before those who are different–ESPECIALLY when there is such a recent and violent history of being betrayed, robbed and other nasty stuff by those who didn’t like you much.

I lived in Bakersfield for a year, in a very strongly Catholic/Hispanic neighborhood. Everybody had a statue of the Virgin Mary in their livingroom window–and I do mean everybody. One weekend, after an intense windstorm that blew down several trees in the park across the street, a group of young people went to the homes in this neighborhood and helped clean the yards–of everybody who spoke Spanish and had Mary in their window. I, with a brand new (and I do mean BRAND new) baby plus a 2 year old toddler was trying to clean the branches off of my yard so that I could move my car. These young people saw me struggling…and ignored me. They helped the people on either side, but not me. Why? Because I was neither Catholic nor Hispanic.

Now, what sort of stereotype do you think I could come up with as a result of that one?

…oh, I moved the branches myself. The local ward sent people over to help me get rid of the branches I couldn’t move, and they ALSO took the branches that the neighbors could not move, since the Elders of the ward had the truck, tree trimmer and loader.

The neighbors didn’t turn that help down, either, I noticed–and I don’t blame them. They spoke Spanish. I didn’t. They didn’t know me, I didn’t know them. They were uncomfortable. They knew they could trust their own–who the heck was I? A year later, after they got to know me and we had shared cookies and baby sitting, the windstorm clean up included my yard.

It’s natural.

Get over it.

 

[LongJourney]

Diana, you are equating preference in voluntary community effort with violations of Title VII of the Civil Rights act of 1964. Won’t fly.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, you are equating preference in voluntary community effort with violations of Title VII of the Civil Rights act of 1964. Won’t fly.

LJ, nobody id violating Title VII. YOu didn’t mention Title VII, and if you are accusing anybody of so doing, a little proof…or even minor evidence…would be good.

 

[utah_rose]

Isaiah by all accounts is not an easy book to understand or to interpret, and you and I could be arguing forever about the rights and wrongs of its interpretation without ever coming to an agreement; and I would rather not go down that road.

The mistake you are making here is that you are trying to read Isaiah as though it were a continuous narrative, which it isn’t.

The two “darkness”es mentioned in 59:9 and 60:2 refer to two different things. They don’t refer to the same phenomenon. In 59:9 it refers to the chastisement of Zion in her exiled condition, which the Lord allowed to come upon them because of their transgressions. In 60:2 it refers to the redemption of Zion from her exiled condition at the time when the rest of the world is in a darkened state of Apostasy.

Continued … /

Instead of arguing about this on this Catholic blog (no, we love our church like you love yours and we won’t convert) why aren’t you on your many Mormon blogs. Also, your conference is this weekend? Why are you not listening to the conference speeches? Thomas Monson says they need missionaries. Perhaps you would like to volunteer for another “call”.

 

[LongJourney]

LJ, nobody is violating Title VII. You didn’t mention Title VII, and if you are accusing anybody of so doing, a little proof…or even minor evidence…would be good.

Why should I offer that? You would only say that I lie.

 

[dianaiad]

Instead of arguing about this on this Catholic blog (no, we love our church like you love yours and we won’t convert) why aren’t you on your many Mormon blogs. Also, your conference is this weekend? Why are you not listening to the conference speeches? Thomas Monson says they need missionaries. Perhaps you would like to volunteer for another “call”.

The second session of Conference ended an hour and a half ago, Utah Rose.

As to why we are here…well…

It is, after all, the “Non-Catholic religions” subforum of CAF, a specific subforum set aside specifically for the discussion of non-Catholic religions.

The last time I looked, Mormons were not Catholic.

That would mean…well, goodness. I guess this IS the right place.

 

[dianaiad]

Why should I offer that?

Because you made the accusation; it’s a rather serious one, and at least in this country one really needs to prove guilt before one can be convicted. Your claim, your proof.

You would only say that I lie.

Would I? that’s quite a prediction, LJ–and one that I have given you no reason to make. However, given that your accusation is that of a rather wholesale breaking of the law, the proof should be out there in the form of formal charges and convictions. You know, actual court cases. I can hardly accuse you of lying if you provide them, can I? Such things can far too easily be checked.

So how about it? A case or two (or, since you have accused pretty much everybody in Utah of doing this as a matter of policy…a whole bunch of them) would be good. With links, case numbers and judgments. If they exist, they exist. If they don’t, they don’t; it’s not a matter of subjective determination as to whether you are lying.

If you have 'em, trot 'em out. If you don’t, then withdraw the accusation. Seems simple enough.

 

[LongJourney]

Well, thank you. I’ve been working on a statement on that very thing. mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14867

 

[dianaiad]

Well, thank you. I’ve been working on a statement on that very thing. mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14867

Was this a reply to my request for proof/evidence that Utahns violate TitleVII on a wholesale basis?

I’m sorry, LJ, but if that’s what this was, it won’t work. You were in an incredibly unfortunate situation, and I’m sorry for that, but I sure can’t see where this is evidence that all Mormons in Mormon dominated areas violate Title VII on a wholesale basis.

You are the one, after all, who moved the goalposts all the way to there. I already acceded to the idea that members of any group (including Mormons) are going to be more comfortable with members of that group. People do that all the time without violating the law. As I said, it’s called ‘networking,’ and is a long respected way to conduct business.

…and again, as I mentioned, if we ARE going to talk about the US idea of Title VII, Catholics for close to 1500 years made such practices mandatory.

That you had a hard time I’m sorry for. You married a real piece of work—but from your own story, you can’t blame him on the MORMONS.

 

[LongJourney]

Yes, my ex was a real piece of work, and the emotional after-effects of that set me up for tolerating what happened after the divorce. Just getting the annulment helped me a lot.

all Mormons in Mormon dominated areas violate Title VII on a wholesale basis.

I don’t do that. I have no idea how extensive the problem is. I also have to figure in my own “where I was born and ancestry” into the recipe that made it so bad. Given the population of the US, the above characteristics are small in proportion.

I am glad you do not accuse me of lying.

And I fully acknowledge that I did not fit into the culture of that town. That is why I moved to Wisconsin (since moving back home was out of the question)

 

[catholic-rcia]

Why don’t you look at it in the perspective of receiving blessings from God?

• In times past the blessing might have been a good crop of wheat, or apples.
• In times past the blessing might have been a healthy family, without mortality.

In current times, about <1% of us farm. So our modern blessings connect quickly with money - new job, selling house, etc.

Come to think of it, when in history haven’t blessings related to health or material gain

I am speaking about Blessings Todd, not let’s make a deal
I will tie this to the Apostacy in the end to keep this on tract.

Not long after I arrived in Logan Utah I was working in a home with an elderly LDS women who had lost her husband not to long before. She was scarred,. why? The doctor told her she was going to loose her leg. That it could not be cured. She kept telling me that because of her faith she would not loose it, that a miracle was going to happen. Now as a Catholic I firmly believe in miracles, we get the biggest at as each Mass. I asked her if she would allow me to pray with her and she said yes. The only thing I re -call about the prayer that was prompted by the Holy Spirit and not me was Jesus telling her that even if she looses her leg He would be with her through it.

This is why looking for blessing other than Jesus can be wrong. When you are close to Jesus life itself is a continuous blessing in good times, in bad times, in times of sin, times of Confession, etc… when you grow up in faith you quit using God as a genie in a bottle. You stop making deals such as if I don’t keep my doors open on Sunday I will actually make more money. You just keep the doors closed and go to Mass and give honor and praise to the one whom created you. It’s not about what I am going to get out of it for me, its about giving your time to God. You have trust and faith that He will take care of the rest.

I knew a Mormon man who owned a restaurant on the Logan River. He told me he was loosing business because he did not sell alcohol and was praying about whether he should in order to compete with all the other new restaurants in town. . He was absolutely torn and I could see this. You could tell he was a wonderful man with a huge heart, you could feel it in the room. He was open for many years and many LDS appreciated the fact that he did not sell it. But when the Olive Garden opened…Ruby Tuesdays, and about 5 others his business started to fall off plus those who enjoyed a glass of wine with their meal did not go to his place, never had along with whom ever would visit them as well.

He made the right decision and it was not to long before he closed his doors. He made a sacrifice because of his beliefs. This is why we go to Church on Sundays, not because we will be blessed with more work and more money. Because it is the only thing to do. For me blessing fall under a different category and they fall as they may and where they may. As to the fall in the garden one should stay focused on what was lost to mankind and how it is found again. (Jesus)

www.utahmission.com

 

[utah_rose]

I am speaking about Blessings Todd, not let’s make a deal
I will tie this to the Apostacy in the end to keep this on tract.

Not long after I arrived in Logan Utah I was working in a home with an elderly LDS women who had lost her husband not to long before. She was scarred,. why? The doctor told her she was going to loose her leg. That it could not be cured. She kept telling me that because of her faith she would not loose it, that a miracle was going to happen. Now as a Catholic I firmly believe in miracles, we get the biggest at as each Mass. I asked her if she would allow me to pray with her and she said yes. The only thing I re -call about the prayer that was prompted by the Holy Spirit and not me was Jesus telling her that even if she looses her leg He would be with her through it.

This is why looking for blessing other than Jesus can be wrong. When you are close to Jesus life itself is a continuous blessing in good times, in bad times, in times of sin, times of Confession, etc… when you grow up in faith you quit using God as a genie in a bottle. You stop making deals such as if I don’t keep my doors open on Sunday I will actually make more money. You just keep the doors closed and go to Mass and give honor and praise to the one whom created you. It’s not about what I am going to get out of it for me, its about giving your time to God. You have trust and faith that He will take care of the rest.

I knew a Mormon man who owned a restaurant on the Logan River. He told me he was loosing business because he did not sell alcohol and was praying about whether he should in order to compete with all the other new restaurants in town. . He was absolutely torn and I could see this. You could tell he was a wonderful man with a huge heart, you could feel it in the room. He was open for many years and many LDS appreciated the fact that he did not sell it. But when the Olive Garden opened…Ruby Tuesdays, and about 5 others his business started to fall off plus those who enjoyed a glass of wine with their meal did not go to his place, never had along with whom ever would visit them as well.

He made the right decision and it was not to long before he closed his doors. He made a sacrifice because of his beliefs. This is why we go to Church on Sundays, not because we will be blessed with more work and more money. Because it is the only thing to do. For me blessing fall under a different category and they fall as they may and where they may. As to the fall in the garden one should stay focused on what was lost to mankind and how it is found again. (Jesus)

www.utahmission.com

Amen. And instead of arguing about “apostasy” lets count our blessings and the beliefs that we share, such as family, belief against same sex marriage and helping others. I believe also that the conference for women stressed “non-judgmental” attitudes about different religions which I find lacking in Salt Lake City.

 

[mtolympus]

Instead of arguing about this on this Catholic blog (no, we love our church like you love yours and we won’t convert) why aren’t you on your many Mormon blogs. Also, your conference is this weekend? Why are you not listening to the conference speeches? Thomas Monson says they need missionaries. Perhaps you would like to volunteer for another “call”.

Hi Utah Rose,

As I write, I am listening to a conference talk by Boyd K. Packer. I like his of story of the child who brought a kitten to class. One child asked, “How can we tell if it is a boy or a girl?” Another child raised his hand saying "I know! I know! The teacher was a little concerned with the direction of the conversation but asked him, OK how can we tell? The child answerd “We can vote on it!” Packer’s point was that there are certain facts, eternal laws and moral standards that cannot be determined by a vote of the people.

I am glad to hear you love your church. My point in writing in this blog is not to convert any one but so that we might better understand each other. Their is a lot of misinformation being presented in some churches about the LDS teachings. Be strong in the church the gives you faith in Christ.

Why are you listening to LDS General Conference and reading a blog about Mormons? Just curious.

 

[mtolympus]

Amen. And instead of arguing about “apostasy” lets count our blessings and the beliefs that we share, such as family, belief against same sex marriage and helping others. I believe also that the conference for women stressed “non-judgmental” attitudes about different religions which I find lacking in Salt Lake City.

Since this tread is titled the “Biblical Evidence of the Great Apostacy” this subject is bound to come up. However, I competely agree with you on counting our blessings and working together for the beliefs that we share and helping others.

You sound like a very honest woman. I am sorry that you find a “non-judgmental” attitude lacking is SLC. If this subject was stressed in the women’s conference it shows LDS leaders are trying to address the problem. Sometimes these feelings come from misunderstanding on one or both sides. God bless you as we work together in the cause of Christ.

 

[Pahoran]

Yes, you completely missed the point of the passage. It is not surprising since your church insists on using the easily-misunderstood KJV. Personally I believe that’s why they still use it - so they can keep their members confused and misdirected.

Now Paul. You should know that all you’ve done here is take a disreputable old anti-Catholic libel, retouch it slightly, and recycle it as a brand new, but equally disreputable, anti-Mormon libel.

In fact, you probably do know that, don’t you?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Pahoran]

Mormons are Christians in the same way that I’m Queen Victoria

Actually the fact that Latter-day Saints are Christians is one of the most easily demonstrated, objective facts in this whole area of discussion, and ought to be considered an axiom.

You can read about it here, in Offenders for a Word.

Regards,
Pahoran