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Caprica
Guest
Great book. I read most of it online, ordered a hard copy a few days ago.
Biblical Evidence for Great Apostasy and Restoration? (Mormons)
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mtolympus
Guest
How so? I’ve seen a few rather contentious comments on this tread, but they haven’t been from the LDS. Anyway, I think you love it, otherwise you wouldn’t expose your feelings to the thread on this subject.
LDS and all of Heavenly Father’s children need only to prove themselves to the Lord. Anyway, were my comments on Joseph Smith’s prophecy helpful?
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LongJourney
Guest
Very helpful in understanding your struggle to maintain belief in the truth in the LDS church.
M
mtolympus
Guest
You brought it up. Glad I could help.Very helpful in understanding your struggle to maintain belief in the truth in the LDS church.
M
mtolympus
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SteveVH
Guest
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SteveVH
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datamonkey
Guest
When I lived and worked in Salt Lake (9 years) I had the following experiences.
1 - Worked in a supermarket for a large well known retailer. We were looking for cashiers and people who could restock shelves. The store director made it clear he would give a returned missionary preference over everyone else as a reward. (By the way I was transferred in from another division of the company; otherwise I may have never been hired by the local talent).
2 - When I applied for a position with one of the regional wholesalers that had a local warehouse, one of the first questions they asked was which ‘ward’ did I belong to. Needless to say I didn’t get the job.
3 - I eventually obtained a position with another company and made it into management. We had an opening for a buying position and several of the candidates showed up for an interview toting the BOM. They made sure we saw it; some of them actually placed on my desk. Needless to say they didn’t get the job. We had quite a few buyers who were LDS because they were qualified for the position but I wasn’t about to hire someone who thought that their religion should give them an edge. I couldn’t trust their decisions. They needed to make decisions based on what was best for the company and not what was best for thier church buddies.
I am not saying these were the norm, but I haven’t seen anything like this outside of Utah.
J
jpaul1953
Guest
Zerinus,
Your’ Apostacy and Restoration’ link really doesn’t quite get it. It sounds like Jesus’ Church in your faith’s mind lasted not even a century. Wow, how could Jesus be so wrong about about something so important. By reading your link, I would say the Great Apostacy was the Protestant Reformation, not the true Church of Christ growing up.
Joe
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I like the thinking here Steve.
Anyway as far as the Apostasy. I’d have to dig through the speechs this year by Pope Benedict XVI but didn’t he alluded to this already? His words related to Fatima no?
God Bless, GT
Anyway as far as the Apostasy. I’d have to dig through the speechs this year by Pope Benedict XVI but didn’t he alluded to this already? His words related to Fatima no?
God Bless, GT
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
**quote=mtolympus;7144916]
quote=mtolympus "He didn’t say one must "have a great sense of the most Holy Trinity in their lives"
Nor did he say one must "have a great sense of the most Holy Bible in their lives
To me having a great sense of the Holy Trinity In ones life means having a great sense of love in ones life (Gods love). Gods love is Trinitarian / Godhead. We use the word Trinity because it makes it easier when speaking about God rather than saying.
I can say I have a sense of the Trinity or I have a sense of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One can say I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and we do this. We also say trinity to describe God as well.
What I have found in being blessed to see others come to Chris is that each one has discovered the Holy Trinity throughout all of the scriptures. It lights up for them in the form of an epiphany. Where you could not see it before all of a sudden you see it everywhere. “Let us make man in our image” for instance.
Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Really the scriptures regarding God as three persons is to numerous to place here.
I remember where it was in the scriptures that I first encountered this epiphany myself. It was right here
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians12.htm
Even before I read Johns Gospel through and through.
The very fact that the Jews because of all our sins had Him crucified because Jesus claimed to be God should be enough to help you pause. The Holy Trinity is not revealed to everyone but as a Christian I can say this is what makes me a Chrstan because I have been blessed that the Trinity has been revealed to me just as it was to the Apostles. The exact revelation that they had regarding Jesus “My Lord and my God”
From Steve:
“How can one love another without knowing who they are loving? Our ideas of God are so very far removed from each other that one of us is in great error as to who He is. Which God of the Bible do you love? One who progressed from a man to divinity? Or one that has existed for eternity? Is it the Father you love, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart…”. It does not say that you shall love the Lord thy "Gods". Who is it that you are commanded to love exactly?”
This may sound harsh but it is truth, and I know it comes from Steve’s heart. He is correct.
**
Hello on this blessed Sunday
quote=mtolympus "He didn’t say one must "have a great sense of the most Holy Trinity in their lives"
Nor did he say one must "have a great sense of the most Holy Bible in their lives
To me having a great sense of the Holy Trinity In ones life means having a great sense of love in ones life (Gods love). Gods love is Trinitarian / Godhead. We use the word Trinity because it makes it easier when speaking about God rather than saying.
I can say I have a sense of the Trinity or I have a sense of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One can say I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and we do this. We also say trinity to describe God as well.
What I have found in being blessed to see others come to Chris is that each one has discovered the Holy Trinity throughout all of the scriptures. It lights up for them in the form of an epiphany. Where you could not see it before all of a sudden you see it everywhere. “Let us make man in our image” for instance.
Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Really the scriptures regarding God as three persons is to numerous to place here.
I remember where it was in the scriptures that I first encountered this epiphany myself. It was right here
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians12.htm
Even before I read Johns Gospel through and through.
The very fact that the Jews because of all our sins had Him crucified because Jesus claimed to be God should be enough to help you pause. The Holy Trinity is not revealed to everyone but as a Christian I can say this is what makes me a Chrstan because I have been blessed that the Trinity has been revealed to me just as it was to the Apostles. The exact revelation that they had regarding Jesus “My Lord and my God”
From Steve:
“How can one love another without knowing who they are loving? Our ideas of God are so very far removed from each other that one of us is in great error as to who He is. Which God of the Bible do you love? One who progressed from a man to divinity? Or one that has existed for eternity? Is it the Father you love, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart…”. It does not say that you shall love the Lord thy "Gods". Who is it that you are commanded to love exactly?”
This may sound harsh but it is truth, and I know it comes from Steve’s heart. He is correct.
M
mtolympus
Guest
When the resurrected Lord appeared to Mary Magdalene he said to her: “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17)
Jesus told Mary he would ascend to his Father, who is also our Father, and to his God, who also is our God. If Jesus called the Father “my God and your God” I am willing to do the same. I believe in God the Etermal Father as the only true God. I know him. I love him because he is my Father. Jesus is my divine Saviour and Redeemer and I love him as my Brother.
Do you know who you are loving? If so please describe the most Holy Trinity. Please back up your description with Scripture so I know the this didn’t originate in the confusing Nicean Council of 325 AD. You seem very wiilling to attempt to decribe my God but no one has yet told my how having a “sense of the most Holy Trinity” is the only way keep the commandment to love the Lord thy God.
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dianaiad
Guest
Datamonkey…do you see how your example #3 was just as unacceptable as #'s 1 and 2? In all three instances the person in charge of hiring gave preference because of religion; the first two because they wanted Mormons, and you because you didn’t want one.
How are you any different from those managers you disliked? True, the young applicants who brought their BoM’s to the interview were being pretty obvious (but if you were correct about the all pervasiveness of pro-LDS hiring practices in that area, it was like wearing your ‘greek’ pin on your lapel if you are about to interview with a boss who used to belong to that society…). …and you just exhibited your own bias by deciding AGAINST them–because of their religion.
How is what you did any better than the experiences you had trying to get a job?
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LongJourney
Guest
He decided to not hire them because they thought that wearing an LDS name-badge would get them a job. Anyone who thinks that their religion is more important than professional attributes would be a bad risk.
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dianaiad
Guest
LJ, that doesn’t make any sense.
In fact, the only way his reacting in this way WOULD make sense is if the all pervasive atttitude of bias toward Mormons in hiring were not true.
It is a truism in business that if you are going to apply for a job, you study the company. Then you arrive at the interview and present yourself as someone who would ‘fit in’ with the company dynamic; if everybody in the company runs around the building with the boss, you arrive for the interview prepared to slip in the information that you are training for the local marathon. If you know that the boss networks all Phi Beta Kapas, you wear your pin. If you know that the boss went to the same school you did, you wear the tie. That’s standard networking practice–and it is taught in every single business ‘how to get a job’ workshop ever given.
Now.
IF the practice is as he described, that ALL Mormon owned businesses in Utah are biased toward Mormons and against non-Mormons, then it’s like the guy who only hires former “Alpha-Beta-whatevers.” It’s a good idea to wear the pin and know the handshake. You cannot blame a Mormon interviewee for bringing his bona fides to the interview. In fact, doing so means that the kid did his or her homework about the company and the culture. Thus, refusing to hire him BECAUSE of that is exactly the sort of discrimination he is claiming to be against. He is discriminating against them because he doesn’t like Mormons.
However, if the practice is NOT all pervasive–that is, if most Mormon owned businesses do NOT offer such a bias, then bringing such evidence of one’s religion really is dumb–and a proper thing to consider when deciding who to hire–and who to dismiss.
So which is it? Is the culture all pervasively biased against hiring non-Mormons–in which case bringing proof of membership to a hiring interview is a good idea and deciding not to hire someone for doing so discrimination, or is the culture NOT all pervasively biased against hiring non-Mormons, in which case bringing scriptures to an interview is pretty dumb?
Was Datamonkey wrong about the culture–and thus right about dismissing anybody with a BoM in his hand, or right about the culture–and showing his own discriminatory hiring practices in response?
Either way, there’s a problem.
L
LongJourney
Guest
If I did not fit into the culture of the organization, I would prefer to not be hired. On the other hand, if a school district served a diverse population, but the people in key positions of power were conservative LDS who sought to transform the public school system into a sectarian one, then I would yell to high heavens.
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datamonkey
Guest
Not true. We had several buyers who were LDS. The ones who brought the BOM showed poor judgement and a lack of professionalism. That was the reason they weren’t hired.
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dianaiad
Guest
Ok, so you approve of privately owned businesses discriminating in regard to religion?
We are not, you realize, talking about a public school district, or indeed any public, government owned entities. Since we aren’t, you are moving the goalposts just a wee bit.
There is no evidence, and no charge, that the Utah public school system practices discriminatory hiring practices.
L
LongJourney
Guest
No, I am talking about not wanting to work in a hostile environment.
As for the second point, time will tell, m’dear, time will tell.
D
dianaiad
Guest
The point is, they were only showing ‘poor judgment and a lack of professionalism’ if you are WRONG about LDS discriminatory hiring practices. If you are right about them, then bringing proof of their membership to the preferred group was very much the right thing to do.
…and if you are right about the culture of discrimination, then YOU were being discriminatory in deciding against them because of the group they belonged to.
However, if you are wrong about the pervasive culture of religious discrimination in hiring, then yes, those applicants were being unprofessional and showing poor judgment.
You can’t have this both ways, Datamonkey.
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