Biblical Proof Text of the Trinity: All Christian Apologists welcome to join.

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Did Jesus break the Sabbath? Yes or No?

If he did, he would have committed sin and should be put to death (Ex 31:14,*15; Nu 15:32-36)

I would say, No, Jesus did not break the Sabbath.

The Jews incorrectly thought he did, but frankly, they were wrong about a lot… thinking Jesus was demonized, a drunk, glutton, born of fornication, etc.

Did Jesus really break the Sabbath, or was this just the incorrect opinion of the Jews?
 
Steve, for you to make your case, you would have to argue that Jesus was the worse communicator in history.
To the contrary… I believe Jesus was the best communicator in history. However, I believe these Jews were some of the most stiff-necked, hard-headed, non-listeners in the history of mankind…

Which is the point of this:

(Luke 20:9-16) Then he started to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and let it out to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for considerable time. 10But in due season he sent out a slave to the cultivators, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. The cultivators, however, sent him away empty, after beating him up. 11But he repeated and sent them a different slave. That one also they beat up and dishonored and sent away empty. 12Yet again he sent a third; this one also they wounded and threw out. 13At this the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son the beloved. Likely they will respect this one.’ 14When the cultivators caught sight of him they went reasoning with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours.’ 15With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16*He will come and destroy these cultivators and will give the vineyard to others.” On hearing [this] they said: “Never may that happen!”
 
Daniel writes:
“Father was greater than I” ah, the president of the US is greater than you are, that does not mean you are less than he is in nature. Are you a worm because Bush is greater than you are?
I love this counter Trinity argument. No one would ever argue that they and George Bush are 2/3’rds of a Trinity… But, they’ll go on to argue that exact point about Jesus and his Father YHWH.

But, it gets better. Jesus prays to his Father, views his Father as “my God”, and ultimately will subject himself for all time to his Father.

There’s no Trinty, no mention of Trinity, no mention of “God the Son”… it’s just Jesus, the “Son of God”, “Son of the Most High”, a servant who was sent by God to speak his message (Heb 1:1). And sadly, Trinitarians have confused themselves, unable to distinguish between the messager of YHWH and YHWH himself.
 
Daniel writes:
As for his knowledge, Phil 2 plainly teaches that God the Son set aside the practice of such, in the words he “empited himself”. How can not empty something that is not there?
Listen Daniel… Phil 2 doesn’t use the phrase “God The Son”, in fact, that phrase isn’t used ANYWHERE in the Bible. Not once. You are reading into the Scripture what isn’t there.

Jesus calls himself “Son of God”, not “God The Son”. Take note and think about it…

Jesus did empty himself of what he had in heaven when he came to earth and became human.

At John 10:31-36, the Jews were angry, thinking that Jesus was making himself “God”… How did Jesus respond… He claimed only to be “God’s Son”…

Listen the Jesus, he’s telling you the truth.
 
You’re right.🙂

We also have had the Arians, Cathars, and Unitarians.😦

As I said, why should I believe in some version of Christian Restoration (the Church has been in apostatsy only to be put on the right track some 1700 years after the fact or so) versus Jesus has been with His church all along. It would seem to me that Matthew 16:18 supports the latter view of Christ and His Church.🙂

Particularly when the church claiming to be the restored church has made prophetic statements that are just …umm… false.
Like mozart, I also would pick A. The belief found by the JW and other Non-Trinitarians proven to be false. While the those who held Trinitarian belief proven to be true. Mainstream Christianity show that one Jesus lived, suffered, died, and was buried and rose again on the third day.

From the Apostles there have been witnesses of miracles like Peter rising the dead, healing the sick. In the late of the 1st Century, 2nd Century, 3rd Century, 4th Century, early Christians were being persecuted and miracles bear witness to this belief.

St. Polycarp on his martyrdom, his enemies try to burn him but the flames did not harm him. So instead, a soldier came and stabb him and he was killed.

The martyrdom of Cecilia is said to have followed that of her husband and brother by the prefect Turcius Almachius.[5] The officers of the prefect then sought to have Cecilia killed as well. She arranged to have her home preserved as church before she was arrested. At that time, the officials attempted to kill her by locking her in an overheated bathhouse. However, the attempt failed, and she was to be beheaded. The executioner attempted to decapitate her three times unsuccessfully, at which time he fled. Cecilia survived another three days before succumbing. She died something around 176-180 AD.
 
I noticed a lot of theologian errors on Steve’s part. He has yet refute Jesus calling himself, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty…” or “…Fear not. I am the First and the Last, 18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.” (Revelation 1:17).

I. Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

Exodus 3:14 - God says “I AM who I AM” - John 8:58 - Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I AM” in reference to Himself.

Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God’s hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus’ hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the “Him” is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

**
II. Jesus Christ’s Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God.**

John 1:1 - John writes, “the Word was God.” This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ’s divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah’s bible, the passage was changed to “Word was a god.” This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man’s angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus’ Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel “killed the Author of Life.” This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
 
((continue))

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is “Lord of the Sabbath.” He is the Lord of God’s law which means He is God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself “Lord.” “The Lord has need of them.”

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God “Abba,” Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus’ unique intimacy with the Father.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said “tell how much God has done for you.” And the man declared how much Jesus did.
 
and finally, we read in the Bible that Jesus is worshipped, and he is does not rebute anyone to not worship him. You know as well as I do, that we worship God alone. If Jesus was not God, why didn’t he bother to rebuke anyone who worship him?

V. Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is “proskuneo” which always means the worship of God.

Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.

Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.

Matt. 28:9 - Jesus’ disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 28:17 - Jesus’ disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.

Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.

Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth’s declaration “the Mother of my Lord” = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word “Adonai” which means “Lord God”).

Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.

John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.

John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas’ statement “My Lord and my God!” Literally, “the Lord of me and the God of me!” (in Greek, “Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou”).
 
Manny,

Before you continue to just cut and paste and dump a bunch of references, take the time to study both sides of the Trinity argument. Then, you will become a far more persuasive proponent of whatever you choos to believe.

Each and everyone of these scriptures is easily explained by non-Trinitarians.

Be a good student, listen, learn, question, and test.
 
Manny,

For example, before you make a big claim about Jesus being “worshipped”, take the time to study the greek word “proskuneo”… the word used for what various people we doing to Jesus.

Check it out… do your research…

If you do, you will learn that Unger’s Bible Dictionary says that this word literally means to ‘kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage.’ An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says that this word “denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man ... or to God.” In Bible times pro·sky·ne′o often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature.

Consider the parable Jesus gave of the slave who was unable to repay a substantial sum of money to his master. A form of this Greek word appears in this parable, and in translating it the King James Version says that “the servant therefore fell down, and worshipped [form of pro·sky·ne′o] him [the king], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matthew 18:26; italics ours.) Was this man committing an idolatrous act? Not at all! He was merely expressing the kind of reverence and respect due the king, his master and superior.

Such acts of obeisance, or expressions of respect, were fairly common in the Orient of Bible times. Jacob bowed down seven times upon meeting his brother, Esau. (Genesis 33:3) Joseph’s brothers prostrated themselves, or did obeisance, before him in honor of his position at the Egyptian court. (Genesis 42:6) In this light we can better understand what happened when the astrologers found the young child Jesus, whom they recognized as “the one born king of the Jews.” As rendered in the King James Version, the account tells us that they “fell down, and worshipped [pro·sky·ne′o] him.”—Matthew 2:2, 11.

Clearly, then, the word pro·sky·ne′o, rendered “worship” in some Bible translations, is not reserved exclusively for the type of adoration due Jehovah God. It can also refer to the respect and honor shown to another person. In an effort to avoid any misunderstanding, some Bible translations render the word pro·sky·ne′o at Hebrews 1:6 as “pay him homage” (New Jerusalem Bible), “honour him” (The Complete Bible in Modern English), or “bow down before him” (Twentieth Century New Testament)

Jason DeBuhn’s “Truth In Translation” goes into this in great detail in chapter 4… This is a great book for the Bible student who’d really like to understand accuracy and bias in Bible Translations.

If you were to take the time and study this topic, you’d learn that bowing, and paying homage was a common act… this is the word “proskyneo”… choosing to use the word “worship” and the using that as a so-called “proof-text” that Jesus must be God is not correct.
 
Dear Manny,

Here’s an example where your copy and paste is just repeating inaccuracies:
Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is “proskuneo” which always means the worship of God.
Actually, “always means the worship of God” is completely incorrect and all sorts of scholars would agree, for example:

An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says that this word “denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man ... or to God.” In Bible times pro·sky·ne′o often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature.

I encourage you to take the time and study the topic… just don’t repeat what others say…
 
Dear Manny and Daniel,

You’ve both brought up this point:
He has yet refute Jesus calling himself, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty…” or “…Fear not. I am the First and the Last, 18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.” (Revelation 1:17).
If a Bible student gets to Revelation and is confused about Jesus being YHWH and not the son of YHWH, I don’t think he’ll have any ability to understand what’s being said.

The confusion comes from not understanding who’s talking.

Rev 1:1 shows that “God” (i.e. YHWH) tells Jesus to convey his message… and then Jesus asks an angel to convey the message…"

So, who’s talking? Everything is actually the angel talking… conveying the words of Jesus, who in turn is conveying the words of his Father YHWH…

Alpha and Omega - This is YHWH speaking
“First and Last”… is a term being used for Jesus in one context and YHWH in another.

First and Last what?

Jesus was the first and last person directly resurrected to immortal heavenly life by his Father YHWH.

YHWH is the first and last Almighty God.

If you can’t understand Jesus direct explanation that his Father is the “only true God”(John 17:3)… and that Jesus views his Father as “my God” (Rev 3:12), and that prior to all this Jesus was sitting at the right hand of YHWH (Psa 110:1-5), and that YHWH sent forth Jesus as a messenger (Heb 1:1) and a servant (Acts 3:12)… but become confused in all this thinking that Jesus is YHWH… you’ll not be able to understand Revelation…
 
I noticed a lot of theologian errors on Steve’s part. He has yet refute Jesus calling himself, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty…” or “…Fear not. I am the First and the Last, 18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.” (Revelation 1:17).
Exactly. You know I wonder if BibleSteve could answer when the Alpha Omega, Lord God (Jehovah) died? :rolleyes:
 
John 1:18 - the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
Dear Manny,

Once again, you need to study the word you are using to prove your point.

Why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begotten” to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham? Hebrews 11:17 speaks of Isaac as Abraham’s “only-begotten son.” There can be no question that in Isaac’s case, he was only-begotten in the normal sense, not equal in time or position to his father.

The basic Greek word for “only-begotten” used for Jesus and Isaac is mo·no·ge·nes′, from mo′nos, meaning “only,” and gi′no·mai, a root word meaning “to generate,” “to become (come into being),” states Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Hence, mo·no·ge·nes′ is defined as: “Only born, only begotten, i.e. an only child.”—A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament, by E.*Robinson.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, says: “[Mo·no·ge·nes′] means ‘of sole descent,’ i.e., without brothers or sisters.” This book also states that at John 1:18; 3:16,18; and 1John 4:9, “the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father.”

So Jesus, the only-begotten Son, had a beginning to his life. And Almighty God can rightly be called his Begetter, or Father, in the same sense that an earthly father, like Abraham, begets a son. (Hebrews 11:17) Hence, when the Bible speaks of God as the “Father” of Jesus, it means what it says—that they are two separate individuals. God is the senior. Jesus is the junior—in time, position, power, and knowledge.

When one considers that Jesus was not the only spirit son of God created in heaven, it becomes evident why the term “only-begotten Son” was used in his case. Countless other created spirit beings, angels, are also called “sons of God,” in the same sense that Adam was, because their life-force originated with Jehovah God, the Fountain, or Source, of life. (Job 38:7; Psalm 36:9; Luke 3:38) But these were all created through the “only-begotten Son,” who was the only one directly begotten by God.—Colossians 1:15-17.
 
Dear Manny and Daniel,

You’ve both brought up this point:

If a Bible student gets to Revelation and is confused about Jesus being YHWH and not the son of YHWH, I don’t think he’ll have any ability to understand what’s being said.

The confusion comes from not understanding who’s talking.

Rev 1:1 shows that “God” (i.e. YHWH) tells Jesus to convey his message… and then Jesus asks an angel to convey the message…"

So, who’s talking? Everything is actually the angel talking… conveying the words of Jesus, who in turn is conveying the words of his Father YHWH…

Alpha and Omega - This is YHWH speaking
“First and Last”… is a term being used for Jesus in one context and YHWH in another.

First and Last what?

Jesus was the first and last person directly resurrected to immortal heavenly life by his Father YHWH.

YHWH is the first and last Almighty God.

If you can’t understand Jesus direct explanation that his Father is the “only true God”(John 17:3)… and that Jesus views his Father as “my God” (Rev 3:12), and that prior to all this Jesus was sitting at the right hand of YHWH (Psa 110:1-5), and that YHWH sent forth Jesus as a messenger (Heb 1:1) and a servant (Acts 3:12)… but become confused in all this thinking that Jesus is YHWH… you’ll not be able to understand Revelation…
All due deference but your exegesis doesn’t add up BibleSteve. The entire passage refers to Jesus Christ who is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God and who was “alive” (physically) and “died.”
Rev 1:12-18

"12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13* and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast;
14 his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; his eyes were like a flame of fire,

The term “Son of Man” is a term Jesus uses for His diety. Furthermore, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the “Son of God” in Matthew 26:63, Jesus responded with an affirmative, ergo declaring that He was the “Son of Man” who would come in power and great glory in verse 64. This indicates that Jesus used the phrase “Son of Man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.

In Mt 26:65 the high priest tore his robe, because Jesus was saying He was God. As ancient Hebraism teaches, the Pharisees would tear their robes if someone spoke blasphemy.

15* his feet were like burnished bronze, refined as in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters; 16* in his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. 17* When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Since to you only Jehovah is the first and last (Alpha and Omega), when did Jehovah, the living one die?
 
Dear Bishopite,

You say:
In Mt 26:65 the high priest tore his robe, because Jesus was saying He was God. As ancient Hebraism teaches, the Pharisees would tear their robes if someone spoke blasphemy.
This is an example of the amazing confusion I see in Trinitarians. Did Jesus say “He was God” as you say?

(Matthew 26:59-68) Meantime the chief priests and the entire San′he·drin were looking for false witness against Jesus in order to put him to death, 60but they found none, although many false witnesses came forward. Later on two came forward 61and said: “This man said, ‘I am able to throw down the temple of God and build it up in three days.’” 62With that the high priest stood up and said to him: “Have you no answer? What is it these are testifying against you?” 63But Jesus kept silent. So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!” **64 Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it]. **Yet I say to YOU men, From henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65Then the high priest ripped his outer garments, saying: “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See! Now YOU have heard the blasphemy. 66What is YOUR opinion?” They returned answer: “He is liable to death.” 67Then they spit into his face and hit him with their fists. Others slapped him in the face, 68saying: “Prophesy to us, you Christ. Who is it that struck you?”

Hmmm…

They ask: “Are you the Son of God?”

Jesus says: “You yourself said it”…

How is it you turn this simple exchange about whether Jesus is the “Son of God” into a claim that Jesus was claiming to “be God”?
 
Dear Manny,

Once again, you need to study the word you are using to prove your point.

Why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begotten” to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham? Hebrews 11:17 speaks of Isaac as Abraham’s “only-begotten son.” There can be no question that in Isaac’s case, he was only-begotten in the normal sense, not equal in time or position to his father.

The basic Greek word for “only-begotten” used for Jesus and Isaac is mo·no·ge·nes′, from mo′nos, meaning “only,” and gi′no·mai, a root word meaning “to generate,” “to become (come into being),” states Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Hence, mo·no·ge·nes′ is defined as: “Only born, only begotten, i.e. an only child.”—A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament, by E.*Robinson.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, says: “[Mo·no·ge·nes′] means ‘of sole descent,’ i.e., without brothers or sisters.” This book also states that at John 1:18; 3:16,18; and 1John 4:9, “the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father.”

So Jesus, the only-begotten Son, had a beginning to his life. And Almighty God can rightly be called his Begetter, or Father, in the same sense that an earthly father, like Abraham, begets a son. (Hebrews 11:17) Hence, when the Bible speaks of God as the “Father” of Jesus, it means what it says—that they are two separate individuals. God is the senior. Jesus is the junior—in time, position, power, and knowledge.

When one considers that Jesus was not the only spirit son of God created in heaven, it becomes evident why the term “only-begotten Son” was used in his case. Countless other created spirit beings, angels, are also called “sons of God,” in the same sense that Adam was, because their life-force originated with Jehovah God, the Fountain, or Source, of life. (Job 38:7; Psalm 36:9; Luke 3:38) But these were all created through the “only-begotten Son,” who was the only one directly begotten by God.—Colossians 1:15-17.
“Only Begotten Son”
John 3:16 describes Jesus as “the only begotten Son” which means, according to the Witnesses, that Jesus was born of God, i.e., created by God, and is therefore not eternal.(8) But “only begotten” is defined by Bauer’s Greek Lexicon as “unique (in kind) of something that is the only example of its category.”(9) Therefore, the term “only begotten” as applied to Jesus in John 1: 14,18 and John 3:16,18 is a statement of position, not origin.
Indeed, scholars are now in agreement that the idea of “begettal” is absent from the Greek word for “only begotten.” It was once thought that the Greek word monogenes was a combination of mono (only) and gennao (to beget), but now scholars agree it is actually a combination of mono and genos (class, kind). Although the NASB still has “only begotten” in the text of John 3:16, it supplies a footnote in the margin "unique, one of His kind. " The NIV reflects the agreement among scholars in its translation of John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . .”
Thus, Maurice Barnett points out:
In Hebrews 11: 17, referring to Abraham, “yea he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten son,” Isaac was not his only son, nor was he the eldest. Ishmael was born before Isaac. . . . Isaac, however, occupied the position of first-born, and claimed title to the Only Begotten because he was the one of promise and purpose. The same is true in regard to Jesus. He came uniquely by promise with the purpose of human redemption.(10)
Therefore, Jesus is the “only begotten Son,” not in the sense that he is the only being created by God himself, but in the sense that he is the one and only Son of God, unique in kind, purpose, and position. The Witnesses have nothing in this term to indicate that Jesus had a beginning and thus is not eternal.
truthmagazine.com/archives/volume36/GOT036096.htm
 
Biblesteve:

This will allllllllll make a whole lot more sense to you if you think about John 10:30 “I and the Father are one” and John 10:38 “that the Father is in me and I am in the Father” and actually attempt to take something out of those verses.

Then read John 8:19 “You know neither me nor my Father, If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” (I hardly think knowing Michael the archangel and knowing God is quite the same thing.)

Then check out John 8:56-59 “Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and have seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area.”

Seriously, before you react and respond to this post with emotion… relax… read the verse in your New World Translation and think about what the verses are actually saying. You keep separating the Father and the Son like they have to be separated in order for it to make sense. This is GOD we are talking about here, we have finite minds and we will never understand in this ‘system of things’, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses like to say.

All of chapter 10 in John is Jesus trying to convince the hard headed Jews that it is possible for Jesus and his Father to be ONE. They tried to kill him for it too. “You, a man, are making yourself God.” Read it, you will see the theme.
 
also cross reference the quote in Hebrews 1:8-12 with Psalms 102:26-28,

Hebrews is talking about ‘the son’ and Psalms is clearly talking about Jehovah (as it is from the OT and read further back in the chapter).

(right before the verse from Hebrews it makes a CLEAR differentiation between The Son and any angel in heaven; ‘as far superior to the angels’…’ for to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”?’. If one is to assume Jesus when in heaven is Michael the archangel this verse makes zero sense.)

I know you feel like you are being verse shot gunned, but just because of that fact does not mean you can blow off the verses and their meanings.
 
Dear Bishopite,

You say:

This is an example of the amazing confusion I see in Trinitarians. Did Jesus say “He was God” as you say?

(Matthew 26:59-68) Meantime the chief priests and the entire San′he·drin were looking for false witness against Jesus in order to put him to death, 60but they found none, although many false witnesses came forward. Later on two came forward 61and said: “This man said, ‘I am able to throw down the temple of God and build it up in three days.’” 62With that the high priest stood up and said to him: “Have you no answer? What is it these are testifying against you?” 63But Jesus kept silent. So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it]. Yet I say to YOU men, From henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65Then the high priest ripped his outer garments, saying: “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See! Now YOU have heard the blasphemy. 66What is YOUR opinion?” They returned answer: “He is liable to death.” 67Then they spit into his face and hit him with their fists. Others slapped him in the face, 68saying: “Prophesy to us, you Christ. Who is it that struck you?”

Hmmm…

They ask: “Are you the Son of God?”

Jesus says: “You yourself said it”…

How is it you turn this simple exchange about whether Jesus is the “Son of God” into a claim that Jesus was claiming to “be God”?
Steve,

How do YOU know Mt 26 is a "simple exchange?"

Jesus was making Himself out to be equal to God that’s why you can NOT cite ANY evidence of your anti-Trinitarian position from post Apostolic period to the 1800’s other than Arianism which was a heresy, I’m afraid.

That the “the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! 36 What further need have we of witnesses? You have now heard the blasphemy” in Mt 26:65 shows Jesus is making Himself equal to God, just as Jesus was in John 10 according to the Jews, “making Himself equal to God”
John 10:30-33
30The Father and I are one.”
31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. **You, a man, are making yourself God.” **
 
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