Biblical Proof Text of the Trinity: All Christian Apologists welcome to join.

[Daniel_Marsh]

Dear MH84,
…
Here’s what you’ll find… Some Hebrew manuscripts read “look upon **him **whom they have pierced”, while others read “look upon **me **whom they have pierced”. That is a huge difference…So, there isn’t agreement at the manuscript level.
…

Funny NO Hebrew textual commentary that I know of lists “look upon him whom they have pierced” All manuscripts that I know of have “look upon me whom they have pierced”

Your proof please, which hebrew manuscripts are you referreing to?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Once again, anyone else talking and referring to “him” would be understood to be talking about someone else.

But, YHWH does this and Daniel says this “can only refer to God himself”…

Lacks common sense and basic logic.

The translators can’t decide if it should be “him” or “me”, and these bring two totally different meanings to the text.

How many other “him’s” do you see in the text?

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on (ME or HIM?), the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for **him **as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for **him **as one grieves for a firstborn son.

I am speaking from the Hebrew, not the English. From the hebrew context, “him” would go back to whom the speaker of the chapter is. We know that God is the speaker.

Besides there are no Hebrew manuscripts that have the word “him” so, your side track misses. In fact, the Aramaic paraphrase also has Me, as does the translation known as LXX, and its use in the talmud even is “me” too. Only in recent times have Jewish English translations tried to get around “me” by purposely mistranslating “him” or “them”.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Zerinus,

You made a claim that Jesus was YHWH based on Zech 12:10

Related scriptures.

Revelation 1:7-8

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which **pierced him: **and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Zechariah 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall **look upon me **whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:37
and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

Note: there are NO textual variants for John 19:37 see A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament. page 255, here John is likely quoting the LXX.

The word “him” is not a variant in any Hebrew manuscripts. Early translations into arabic targum, greek LXX, and latin vulgate all have “me” too. **The only variant on this text is “look to” vs “look on”, ** where “look on” are in all the best sources.
The rendering “they will look on me” has the support of the large majority of reliable Hebrew manuscripts, the Septuagint, the Old Latin version, the Syriac Peshitta, the Aramaic Targums, and the Greek versions of Aquilla, Symmachus, and Theodotion!!!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Just to underscore the difference of opinion in translators from various religious backgrounds, here’s some more that do not use “me”…

“They will look at the one they stabbed to death.”- The Bible in Living English, Byington

Note, that bible was published by the watchtower.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Zerinus,

I can only do so much homework for you. I’ve made a clear case there is variation in the text. When I pointed out 12 Bibles that show this, you claimed I misquoted without checking yourself.

(And, by the way, go down to the local bookstore and look through the Jewish section. You’ll find Jewish translations that have even more variation to Zech 12:10)

When I spent the time to quote the full text, you complain I didn’t go type out all 12.

Now you want to complain they’re not translations… Go check… they are.

These are well-known translations from serious Bible translators and well-known organizations…

I get the point, you WANT to believe as you do and nothing will sway you.

As a scientist, I look for consistency in data before making a conclusion. When I look at Zec 12:10, I can’t help but notice the critical variation. “him” vs. “me” provide two completely different meanings. You want to hang to “me”…

I’m not even making a case for “him”… I’m simply pointing out the ambiguity found amongst translations.

I’m done with you on this topic.

Steve you have proven that you are limited to English translations. There simply is no “me” vs “him” variant in any hebrew texts. The variant that exists in hebrew is “look on” vs “look to” with “look on” having the strongest support as I listed above post. Go check the sources I listed.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I’ve answered this previously.

Because Trinitarians are confused about Jesus being YHWH, they can’t distinguish who is talking in the book of Revelation.

Sometimes Jesus is talking, other times Jehovah is talking… but in reality, it is an angel who is relating all these conversations (Rev 1:1; 22:16).

Jesus is the one who is talking when he says he died.

Jehovah is the one talking when it says “Alpha and Omega”

The term “first and last” is applied to Jesus in one case because he was the “first and last” person to be resurrected to immortal heavenly life, directly by his father.

The term “first and last” is applied to Jehovah in another case, because he is the “first and last” Almighty God.

This is all confusing to you because as a Trinitarian, you misunderstand the difference between Jesus and YHWH.

How come the Finish Mystery published by the watchtower recognises that the almighty here is Jesus? see full page quotes from before. All Rev 1:1 is saying is that God the Father diverlivered the information to Jesus whom Jesus himself is speaking through the angel or have you forgotten the text, “I Jesus”???

note: no commas in greek.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Note: there are NO textual variants for John 19:37 see A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament. page 255, here John is likely quoting the LXX.

The word “him” is not a variant in any Hebrew manuscripts. Early translations into arabic targum, greek LXX, and latin vulgate all have “me” too. The only variant on this text is “look to” vs “look on”, where “look on” are in all the best sources.

The rendering “they will look on me” has the support of the large majority of reliable Hebrew manuscripts, the Septuagint, the Old Latin version, the Syriac Peshitta, the Aramaic Targums, and the Greek versions of Aquilla, Symmachus, and Theodotion!!!

OK Steve in JEWISH manuscripts how would you explain a non-trinitian, non-chrisitan Jewish scholar changing “look to him” to “look on me”?

Basically, a principle of textual criticism is go with the more difficult reading, another is to explain WHY a copyists went from one reading to another. If the copyist was a trinitiaran like all the catholic ones, then one could say they changed such to fit their theology, or if he was an arian, one could make the same claim.

**But, what theological reason would a Jewish copyist change it from “look to him” to “look on me”? ** If you claim such came about by slip of tongue ( and these sounds are not that similiar in hebrew as they appear to English readers ) then explain why the text was not burned? Also the word order in hebrew is seriously different for each reading.

And why the Masoretic Text contains the reading that favors Jesus as Jehovah here?

I can see that same Jewish copyists changing the text from “look to me” to “look to him” based on “the difficulty of the concept of the mortal piercing of God, the subject of this clause, and the shift of pronoun from “me” to “him” in the next, many mss read אַלֵי אֵת אֲשֶׁר (’ale ’et ’asher, “to the one whom,” a reading followed by NAB, NRSV) rather than the Masoretic Text אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר (’ela ’et ’asher, “to me whom”). The reasons for such alternatives, however, are clear – they are motivated by scribes who found such statements theologically objectionable – and they should be rejected in favor of the more difficult reading (lectio difficilior) of the Masoretic Text.”

net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Zec&chapter=12#n15

As a Jew why would one change “look to him” to “look on me” in this context of Zech 12:10. I speak the Hebrew, so I know they are distinct sounds, and different word order. There is nothing the text to support a slip of the eye.

Steve, you do know you have catholics to thank for the very existence of the scriptures today right?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

OK Steve in JEWISH manuscripts how would you explain a non-trinitian, non-chrisitan Jewish scholar changing “look to him” to “look on me”?

 

[BibleSteve]

Daniel,

At this point, please note you are talking for your own amusement.

You have thoroughly convinced me you lack reasoning capability and are simply intent on arguing.

So go ahead and have your own one-sided discussion.

I won’t be continuing to help you with all your confusion.

Steve

 

[zerinus]

I’m done with you on this topic.

Yes, that seems a wise choice. In response, allow me to quote you a passage from the opening paragraph of my Post #237:

“A central plank of JW theology is that Jesus and Jehovah are two different people. If it can be shown from scripture that they are one and the same, that has a devastating effect on their theology. It destroys it completely. Well, that is an easy thing to do. There are many biblical passages that affirm this.”

That is a true statement; and in the same post I had given you many scriptural passages that affirm it.

zerinus

 

[BibleSteve]

Now, I understand better why Jesus gave up and sat silent after the Jews continued to argue with him, misinterpretting what he was saying about himself.

 

[zerinus]

Now, I understand better why Jesus gave up and sat silent after the Jews continued to argue with him, misinterpretting what he was saying about himself.

Not sure what you are referring to here. Jesus was always ready to give an answer to His critics; and always silenced them by His strong reasoning.

zerinus

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi zerinus, bottom line is Steve’s NWT is based on seriously inferior manuscripts at Zech 12:10, all the best ones’ agrees with you that they shall “look upon me”.

Steve, has no answers to many questions. He can not understand Rev 1:7-8 is Jesus as almighty God.

2 Timothy 3:7 (King James Version)
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

OK Steve in JEWISH manuscripts how would you explain a non-trinitian, non-chrisitan Jewish scholar changing “look to him” to “look on me”?

Bible: New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

1 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

Steve, what is the greek word behind Jehovah here?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The rendering “they will look on me” has the support of the large majority of reliable Hebrew manuscripts, the Septuagint, the Old Latin version, the Syriac Peshitta, the Aramaic Targums, and the Greek versions of Aquilla, Symmachus, and Theodotion!!!

Note: there are NO textual variants for John 19:37 see A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament. page 255, here John is likely quoting the LXX.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Steve do you have a personal relationship with Jesus? I do not mean do you know about him.

Here is what I mean, a sport’s fan can collect a players jersey, cards, stats, paint his room in team colors, and know a lot about a player. But, that player’s spouse is the one who really knows that player.

So, steve do you know Jesus on the level of say a spouse?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

One can not blasphemy against a non-person.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Colossians 1:15-20 (King James Version)

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And **he is before all things, and by him all things consist. **

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 1 says plainly that Jesus created “All Things” if he created all things then he is not created himself.

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together

Think about that, Jesus is the glue of the universe, if Jesus ceased to exist everything would cease to exist. It is the creator that holds everything together, not just a mere creature.

If one were to follow the flow of Col 1, they would see that its purpose is to express the **preeminence **of Christ.

Pereq Shalom

R . Yose the Galilean said: "The name of the Messiah is Peace, for it is said, “Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Midrash Mishle, S. Buber edition

The Messiah is called by eight names: Yinnon, Tzemah, Pele “Miracle”], Yo’etz “Counselor”], Mashiah “Messiah”], El “God”], Gibbor “Hero”], and Avi 'Ad Shalom “Eternal Father of Peace”]

jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy/chart/isaiah9-5

jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy/chart/isaiah52-53

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Revelation 11:17
Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Revelation 1:8 (King James Version)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 4:8 (King James Version)
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and** is to come.**

Ok, who do we expect to return at the second coming?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

“…people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself…if he then lays them [Scripture Studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.” The Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1910, p. 298.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

JW’s take the position that Jehovah is responsible for the creation while Jesus did the actual work after having been created. Isaiah 44:24 and 45:18 both indicate that Jehovah “alone” created “all things” and that the creator is God, Yet John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus created all things. From a JW perspective this appears to be a contradiction; how can Jehovah create “all things” “all alone” and “be God” and also Jesus create “all things” and not be God? I’ve heard the analogy of a home builder who takes credit for building the house while in reality the work was subcontracted but this implies that the passages in Isaiah are ambiguous which they are not. They specifically state the Jehovah created all things “alone” and “by myself” - no subcontractor used. The NWT inserts the word “[other]” several times to support the notion that Jesus is a created being who then created “all [other] things”. The NWT presents “other” in brackets indicating the word is not present in the Greek. Bracketed words are supposed to be added only to make for readable English syntax not to modify meaning. Without the editorial use of “[other]” Collosians 1:16 reads: “by means of him all things were created.” which is neither poor English syntax nor ambigous. The NWT does not use “[other]” in John 1:3 translating it “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”. This passage makes it clear that Jesus could not have come into existence apart from himself - the Creator cannot be created.

en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/index.htm
The following is a response to the link response.

Read Col 1:15-20 and Phil 2, the theme thoughout is the headship, preeminence of christ – thus “firstborn” as his primacy over creation.

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And **he is before all things, and by him all things consist. **

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Philippians 2:5-11 (King James Version)

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore **God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.**

Revelation 3:14

New American Standard Bible (1995)
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

GOD’S WORD® Translation (1995)
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God’s creation, says:

Bible in Basic English
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness, the head of God’s new order:

Young’s Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness – the faithful and true – the chief of the creation of God;

Revelation 3:14 (New International Version)
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.