C
Cat_Herder
Guest
Without passing on the accuracy of this definition, that would include Catholics.
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Well, there are a few objections to such a broad definition.
First, what of the laws?
M
moondweller
Guest
That’s right. In Scriptural reality there is no other.
No, not at “the end of time.” Time does not end with the rapture of Christ’s true church. Nor does time even end with the return of Christ to this physical earth.
Enoch and Elijah had/have nothing to do with the rapture of Christ’s true church. Mary, however, does. She will be resurrected with a glorified body like Christ’s (Phil. 3:20-21) along with all those who have “fallen asleep in the Lord” (see 1 Thess. 4:15),1 Thess 4:17 “Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”
You subscribe to this false conclusion because you utterly fail to understand God’s Scripturally revealed, prophetic program for Christ’s true which He (Christ) is presently building. As well as His Scripturally revealed, prophetic program for national Israel (which is separate), based on the unconditional covenant promises.God made with that nation (literally revealed in the O.T. Scriptures). You fail to understand these prophetic and covenant truths because your church spiritualizes them and erroneously apply the kingdom promises to your church - claiming your church to be, itself, the “kingdom.”
Up until the fourth century believers were premillennial in their understanding of the kingdom. IOW, the predominant view was that of the Jewish understanding of the kingdom - which was literal, earthly, political and spiritual. What they did not do was spiritualize or allegorize it, as did the school of Origen (which was a minority). They believed that Christ would return to this earth and usher in a literal, earthly kingdom and literally fulfill what was said to Mary at the Annunciation:Luke 1:31-33 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."They did not spiritualize the throne of His father David, nor His reign over the house of Jacob. It would be a literal, earthly kingdom. In fact, those who did not believe in Christ setting up a literal, earthly kingdom on earth at His return were considered heretics, and not “orthodox.” The change came after the fourth century, greatly influenced by Augustine’s popular, literary work, “The City of God.”
Of course not. Eschatological doctrines, based on a literal delineation of the prophetic Scriptures, did not begin to develop until the 20th century. Until then the main doctrinal focus in Christendom was the deity of Christ followed by justification by faith in Christ alone. Keep in mind that not even the doctrine of the Trinity was developed until the fifth century. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t always there revealed in the Scriptures.
There’s nothing to “explain” about the “assumption” of Mary in those verses.
No, he is not. He is speaking directly to Christ’s church.
This, of course, is the silliest statement ever. Christ’s church (also His bride), which He is presently building and will catch up to Himself, that she may be with Him (Jn. 14:2-3), is called out from both Jews and Gentiles. Such absurdity. It’s a desperate statement, indeed, made by you Amillennialists. Pre-Trib’ers thoroughly recognize, according to His prophetic promise revealed in the O.T., that God, at the return of Christ will “restore the fortunes of Israel.” Which will be fulfilled during the earthly, Millennial reign of Christ; He being national Israel’s rightful King and Messiah. His bride (His church) returns with Him to reign with Him (Rev. 3:21).
L
Lev23
Guest
Ok, I know where you are going with this, but don’t know why.
But to rephrase for you, all OT prophecy concerning the Messiah, whether they be about the suffering servant or conquering king, Christians refer to as Jesus.
L
Lev23
Guest
I don’t know how much farther you can take this one particular point of yours. Especially if your own givien source link (Haydock Commentary for Matthew and Luke) agrees with the transfiguration being the fulfillment of what Jesus spoke of in Matthew, Mark, and John.
This is from Matthew commentary from the Haydock link you gave-
Till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Some expound this, as fulfilled at his transfiguration, which follows in the next chapter.
This is from the Luke commentary from the Haydock commentary link you gave-
Kingdom of God. This is generally understood of the transfiguration, in which Christ shewed to the three disciples an essay of his glory. Calmet.
In all charity, I don’t think tying the feast of the Immaculate Conception to these verses can keep your point going.
L
Lev23
Guest
Your right, he did not. Jesus and the two that appeared with Him actually talked about Jesus’ departure which was to be fulfilled at Jerusalem(Luke9). But this doesn’t mean Jesus’ next statement after talking about judgement could not be fulfilled by the transfiguration. Again, St.Peter confirms what they saw what Jesus told His Apostles what some of them will see.
2 Peter 1:16-18
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 13:24-27[/BIBLEDRB]
“After that tribulation” the Lord will “gather together the elect.” Not much else to say to you there.
[BIBLEDRB]2 Peter 3:8-11[/BIBLEDRB]
The destruction of the world, the end of time, the “dissolving” of all things… it doesn’t matter what you call it. It’s the end.
I understand this alleged “prophetic program for national Israel,” also so-called “Jehovah’s extraordinary work,” perfectly. This so-called “prophetic program” involves the extermination of two-thirds of the world’s Jews simply because they are Jews. That is a heresy, but it is beyond just a heresy; it is anti-Semitism of a Hitlerian magnitude; it is simply and indefensibly evil.
I need to introduce you to my Lord and my God, my Savior and my all, Jesus Christ. The Jews offered Him a worldly kingdom and He refused it. When the Jews turned against Him, He forgave them from the excruciating beams of the holy cross. He said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” If Jesus has the power to forgive anyone, then this “prophetic program” that you have been fed is poison from the devil.
As the Lord forgave them I must forgive you and the people who have mislead you, and I will pray for your conversion that you may come to know Jesus personally and not through false prophets.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
I thought you believed in sola scriptura. Now you’re using a (fallible) Catholic commentary to make your point.
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Vince1022
Guest
M
moondweller
Guest
In context, those “elect” do not involve His church which was already “caught up” to meet her Lord in the air.
The events described in 2 Pet. 3:8-11 do not occur at Christ’s second advent. At His second advent Christ, the King, sets up His earthly, Millennial Kingdom as literally described by the ancient Hebrew prophets.
Perfectly? In fact, not at all. Especially in light of your following statement:
Such a statement proves you don’t understand it at all. That God will bring a Jewish remnant through the Tribulation is a matter of Divine revelation (Zech. 13:8-9). You are, in fact, calling God antisemitic and evil.Zech 13:8-9 “It will come about in all the land,” Declares the Lord, That two parts in it will be cut off {and} perish; But the third will be left in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.’"
Christ was BORN king of the Jews (Matt. 2:2). He was BORN the Son of David, rightful heir to the Davidic throne (Lk. 1:32-33). The Jews didn’t “offer” the King His own kingdom. Nationally He was rejected and the kingdom, over which He was born to rule, was postponed. But those kingdom prophecies will yet be literally fulfilled at Christ’s return to this earth. Why? Because they’re based on covenant promises.
I do know Jesus personally, and I also am well acquainted with the Biblical prophecies concerning His future, glorious, earthly kingdom. That Kingdom which He will rule over from Jerusalem. Sorry Cat, but men like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Zechariah (to name a few) are not false prophets.
Christ’s church will be taken up to be with her Lord. And then “the fortunes of Israel” most certainly will then be restored according to a literal delineation of the O.T. prophetic Scriptures.
Just prior to Christ’s ascension His disciples asked Him: “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6). He didn’t tell them that they erred, not understanding the prophetic Scriptures. But rather: “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority” (Acts 1:7). IOW, the Kingdom would definitely be restored to Israel, but for now, during this church age, they would be His witnesses to the remotest parts of the earth (Acts 1:8). But those prophecies concerning the King and His Kingdom will yet be literally fulfilled.
It’s false teacher that say that the kingdom is already here having been fulfilled spiritually by the church. Sorry, but it didn’t happen. Christ is presently building His church/bride through the power of the Holy Spirit while He now shares His Father’s throne in heaven, functioning there not as King, but as the true believer’s High Priest (Heb. 8:1) and Advocate before the Father (1 Jn. 2:1).
And this church which He is presently building will be taken up to meet her Lord in the air - according to the Scriptures. And we who have believed are to comfort one another with these words (1 Thess. 4:18).
J
jesus4ever
Guest
the holy mary is apearing in many countries because the world is very very evil and is telling us to change our ways and go back to her son. check these one that I know of.
MALTA
ladyborginnadur.blogspot.com/
USA
holylove.org/what_holy_love.php
BOSNIA
medjugorje.org/index.html
MALTA
ladyborginnadur.blogspot.com/
USA
holylove.org/what_holy_love.php
BOSNIA
medjugorje.org/index.html
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
You are spurning the Precious Blood with which Christ ransomed the world. He died for the Jews as much as for anyone else in order to satisfy the wrath of the Father. You ignore the salvific power of the cross and appropriate prophecies of Scripture, which you have no authority to interpret, to justify genocide and call it the will of God.
Yoi clearly do not understand the love of God and I pity you.
[BIBLEDRB]John 6:10-15[/BIBLEDRB]
You have it all backwards. The Jews offered Jesus an earthly kingdom. Jesus refused to be made king because God has no interest in establishing a future earthly kingdom. That’s why your interpretation of Zechariah, etc. is wrong.
Z
zarthan
Guest
"harpazo’ is the Greek word for catching up or caught up, or ‘seized’ to be more exact. In one of the Deutercanonical books, (Book of Wisdom?) it describes Enoch as being ‘caught up’ (harpazo) to heaven.
Paul speaks about being ‘caught up’ in his body or out of his body. Philip was ‘caught up’ or translated by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel to the Ethiopian. Several early church fathers speak of the resurrection of those who are alive at the appearing of Jesus Christ as being ‘caught up’.(Ireneaus, Tertullian, to a mention a few.) 1 Thess. 4:15 is the scripture reference.
I can also understand the three days of darkness as a resemblance to one of the 10 plagues of Egypt. Also, to the three days of the abandonment of Jesus Christ by his heavenly Father beginning in the garden of Gethsemane, to his arrest, his trial, his scourging, his crucifixion and to his descent into Sheol. But, praise be God our Father, who did not leave the soul of Jesus in sheol, neither did he allow His holy one to see corruption. So we have the promise of the resurrection, and/or the ‘catching up’ possibly after these three days of darkness.
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googie
Guest
I can see in scripture that Enoch and Elijah were taken away, but maybe you can give me some scripture where it shows that Mary was taken away. How can you say that the “rapture” is anti-semetic, as the jews that are saved will go in the rapture also. Blessings.
G
googie
Guest
You made one statement,and someone else made the other one, and to me they mean the same thing. Blessings.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
BTW Googie…you’ll find your missing post here. Things Catholics base on Tradition and not scripture.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
Read Revelation 12. The Woman is not Israel but rather Israel’s fulfillment in a specific Woman.
Then go to the Holy Land and try to find Her body, or any of Her relics. As with Her Son there is only an empty tomb.
Stating that God wills the death of two thirds of the world’s Jews, as all rapturists do, is anti-Semitic by any reasonable standard.
M
moondweller
Guest
I’m not “spurning” anything.
Didn’t say He didn’t.
There’s no Divine genocide going on in Zech. 13:8-9. It’s a prophecy about what will happen “in that day.” But it’s God who rescues for Himself a Jewish remnant - just as He did during this church age, as well as in the days of Elijah:Rom. 11:14-15 “But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to baal.”” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to {God’s} gracious choice."
I do understand the love of God and also the prophetic Scriptures. Even the rapture, which is an expression of Christ’s love for His church/bride.
Yeah right Cat.Luke 1:32-33 “*He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”*Notice who gives Jesus His kingdom and throne? The throne of David is an earthly throne. Presently Jesus is sharing His heavenly Father’s throne - in heaven, functioning there as the believer’s High Priest and Advocate. He is not presently reigning as King on His throne. But He anticipates when that day will come (Rev. 3:21; cf. Rev. 19:11-16).
Your personal opinion does not coincide with God’s prophetic revelation. You need to make an adjustment.Jer 23:5-8 “*Behold, {the} days are coming,” declares the Lord, When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, ‘The Lord our righteousness.’
“Therefore behold, {the} days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when they will no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from {the} north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ Then they will live on their own soil.”*
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
But this rescue is necessitated only because you have God abandoning the Jews who are supposedly left behind to be slain by the Antichrist. LaHaye calls this abandonment “Jehovah’s extraordinary work.” I call it a heresy and evil.
It is also anti-Semitic; anyone can see the horrible insinuation in your interpretation that the Jews who are supposedly left behind (2/3 of them) are Baal-worshipers, when Paul is clearly stating it is a past event. You have ripped Scripture out of context to justify a disgusting and racist so-called theology. Please wake up!
Then why did Jesus refuse an earthly throne as plainly stated in the Bible (John 6:15)? That’s a hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through!
M
moondweller
Guest
The reference to Rom. 11:5 was for giving you another example of a Jewish “remnant.” It flew over your head. You’ve never studied the O.T. prophets have you? All you present are your personal opinions.
He refused to be taken “by force.” They weren’t “offering” a kingdom, as you keep trying to state, were they? They tried to make Him king by force. They couldn’t do it anyway. That was just wishful thinking on their part.
They knew from the writings of their ancient prophets that the Messiah when He came would triumph over their oppressors. What they wanted was immediate deliverance from Rome; what Christ required was personal belief in Him.
There’s two pictures of the Jewish Messiah presented in the prophets. The “Suffering Servant” and the “Triumphant King.” They only saw and wanted the latter. Through the jealously of the religious leaders Jesus was nationally rejected and delivered over to the Gentiles to be crucified. But in His manifold wisdom God used the result of that rejection to fulfill the prophecies concerning the “Suffering Servant” (Is. 53:5,6,11) through whom forgiveness of ALL sins would be preached and proclaimed (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14), and belief in Him alone for the gift of salvation and eternal life (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 6:23; Jn. 3:14-18; 1 Jn. 5:9-13), beginning from Jerusalem and then to the utter most parts of the earth. The Davidic Kingdom was postponed and instead Christ is building His church from His heavenly Father’s throne in heaven through the Holy Spirit on earth, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles.
But this church age will end with the rapture of the church/bride of Christ. And then God’s prophetic program for national Israel and the expected earthly kingdom will resume. At the end of the Tribulation period Christ, Israel’s King, will return to crush Israel’s enemies (Antichrist and his armies, as well as his false prophet), bind Satan, and set up His Kingdom on earth for 1000 years. The prophecies must be fulfilled.
So you see, Cat, both prophetic portraits of the expected Messiah will be fulfilled. Just not at the same time. You sadly err by spiritualizing the earthly Kingdom that is yet to come at Messiah’s return - some years after He catches up His church/bride to be with Him.
You may reject what the prophets say, but you can’t change it. That’s the beauty of having God’s Word preserved for us in writing.
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