Biblical support for "pennance"?

[tyson]

Was debating a protestant the other day and the topic of where is penance in the bible and why is penance necessary if ur repenting of ur sins and forgiven why do u have to say 10 Hail Mary’s and 2 Our Fathers?

Also she stated that the bible says that only Jesus is the Mediator between God and man and that confession to a priest is not necessary…

 

[jay29]

Also she stated that the bible says that only Jesus is the Mediator between God and man and that confession to a priest is not necessary…

Ask the person what was the whole point of this:
**
**John 20:21-23

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Jesus gives the Apostles the POWER of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins. It’s plain as day.

 

[Joe_5859]

Was debating a protestant the other day and the topic of where is penance in the bible and why is penance necessary if ur repenting of ur sins and forgiven why do u have to say 10 Hail Mary’s and 2 Our Fathers?

Also she stated that the bible says that only Jesus is the Mediator between God and man and that confession to a priest is not necessary…

Here’s the Catholic Answers tract on the subject:

Forgiveness of Sins

They also have another tract on Confession using quotes from the early Church Fathers. They have lots of other tracts on all the “hot button” issues where Catholics and Protestants disagree.

 

[deanarrca]

Because I would say it is not true repentance unless you make amends. You can repent of your anger or the hurt you have caused a brother, but then you actually have to go and make it right between you and him. If I steal something and repent what good is my repentance if I don’t return what I’ve stolen. true repentance like true faith requires action. The damage of your actions has to be repaired even after you have been forgiven.
I know the wonderful apologists on the board can explain this idea further and better than me. But that is my lay understanding.

Deeny

 

[tyson]

Because I would say it is not true repentance unless you make amends. You can repent of your anger or the hurt you have caused a brother, but then you actually have to go and make it right between you and him. If I steal something and repent what good is my repentance if I don’t return what I’ve stolen. true repentance like true faith requires action. The damage of your actions has to be repaired even after you have been forgiven.
I know the wonderful apologists on the board can explain this idea further and better than me. But that is my lay understanding.

Deeny

thats a great way of looking at it Deeny, however i’m thinking that she meant more along the lines of How can saying 2 Our Fathers and 1 Hail Mary ammend anything?

 

[deanarrca]

thats a great way of looking at it Deeny, however i’m thinking that she meant more along the lines of How can saying 2 Our Fathers and 1 Hail Mary ammend anything?

That is true – I look at that as what do you do when you can’t make amends another way- saying a prayer such as a Hail Mary can substitute.

Lets say I stole money many many years ago from someone and i have no way of returning what I have stolen to that person what else can I do to make amends? I can maybe pray. I can maybe make a charitable donation etc.

I do know there are scriptures that support this concept but I don’t have them on the top of my head. Since I am a new Catholic I’ll let the more knowledgeable chime in since I may not have a full or totally accurate understanding.

 

[tyson]

That is true – I look at that as what do you do when you can’t make amends another way- saying a prayer such as a Hail Mary can substitute.

Lets say I stole money many many years ago from someone and i have no way of returning what I have stolen to that person what else can I do to make amends? I can maybe pray. I can maybe make a charitable donation etc.

I do know there are scriptures that support this concept but I don’t have them on the top of my head. Since I am a new Catholic I’ll let the more knowledgeable chime in since I may not have a full or totally accurate understanding.

great answer thanks,…

 

[als10062008]

I hope I write this well (The original source is going to be slightly better than my explanation, but I’ll do my best): We know Jesus lived, died, and was resurrected in the early years of the first century. The New Testament wasn’t written while Jesus was on earth. It was written in the decades after Jesus was resurrected. Catholicism is based on the Bible, the true Word of God, and is also based on tradition which may not be explicitly spelled out in the Bible, such as the canonization of saints. To me, the New Testament spells out confession clearly, but sometimes it is necessary to look at what was passed down from Jesus to his apostles, and is accepted by the Church, but is not included in the Bible.

 

[ckempston]

Ask the person what was the whole point of this:
**
**John 20:21-23

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Jesus gives the Apostles the POWER of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins. It’s plain as day.

What was the whole point of this?

Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come Your will be done,On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Jesus gave all the POWER to ask forgiveness directly from God. It’s plain as day.

 

[tyson]

What was the whole point of this?

Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come Your will be done,On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Jesus gave all the POWER to ask forgiveness directly from God. It’s plain as day.

yeah but ALL are not succesors of the Apostles with whom were commissioned this power. So if i dont forgive someone for breaking my windshield is he not forgiven in heaven?

 

[ckempston]

yeah but ALL are not succesors of the Apostles with whom were commissioned this power. So if i dont forgive someone for breaking my windshield is he not forgiven in heaven?

The Lord’s Prayer has nothing to do with the Apostle’s ability to forgive sins. Does Jesus, or does he not, indicate that one can ask forgiveness, and receive it, directly from God?

 

[ckempston]

Because I would say it is not true repentance unless you make amends. You can repent of your anger or the hurt you have caused a brother, but then you actually have to go and make it right between you and him. If I steal something and repent what good is my repentance if I don’t return what I’ve stolen. true repentance like true faith requires action. The damage of your actions has to be repaired even after you have been forgiven.
I know the wonderful apologists on the board can explain this idea further and better than me. But that is my lay understanding.

Deeny

Repentance has nothing to do with “making amends” for your past sins. If you have to make up for sins then Jesus is not your propitiation.

How does one “make amends” for sexual immorality? You can’t. Repentance is viewing sin as God views it and stopping the sinful behavior. Jesus “made amends” on the Cross.

 

[tyson]

The Lord’s Prayer has nothing to do with the Apostle’s ability to forgive sins. Does Jesus, or does he not, indicate that one can ask forgiveness, and receive it, directly from God?

Of course he does, but then why does give that authority to the apostles to also forgive sins on his behalf?

 

[ckempston]

Of course he does, but then why does give that authority to the apostles to also forgive sins on his behalf?

Red Herring. Can I receive forgiveness by asking it directly of God? Yes or no.

 

[tyson]

Red Herring. Can I receive forgiveness by asking it directly of God? Yes or no.

Sure you can, but you can also recieve it from a Catholic priest, thats the way Jesus wanted it thats why He gave his disciples that power.

 

[ryanoneil]

Was debating a protestant the other day and the topic of where is penance in the bible and why is penance necessary if ur repenting of ur sins and forgiven why do u have to say 10 Hail Mary’s and 2 Our Fathers?

CCC 1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God,and to others.

Mat 6:1-18

Also she stated that the bible says that only Jesus is the Mediator between God and man and that confession to a priest is not necessary…

and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. (James 5:15-16)

 

[deanarrca]

ckempston

You are confusing Penance with Forgiveness
One can be fully forgiven but still be in need of penance for the sin.

David in the old testament was forgiven his sin but he still had to suffer the consequences.

2nd Samuel 12:13-14 (NAS)
13Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD " And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.

14"However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die."

Sin causes damage- As a sinner you are still responsible for the damage you cause wether you are forgiven or not.

 

[ckempston]

Sure you can, but you can also recieve it from a Catholic priest, thats the way Jesus wanted it thats why He gave his disciples that power.

Really? I was under the impression that only a Priest can forgive sins in the sacrament of Penance.

Can. 959 In the sacrament of penance the faithful who confess their sins to a lawful minister, are sorry for those sins and have a purpose of amendment, receive from God, through the absolution given by that minister, forgiveness of sins they have committed after baptism, and at the same time they are reconciled with the Church, which by sinning they wounded.

 

[ckempston]

ckempston

You are confusing Penance with Forgiveness
One can be fully forgiven but still be in need of penance for the sin.

That doesn’t line up with what the CCC says in my quote above. Penance is where sins are forgiven by a Priest according to the CCC.

 

[ryanoneil]

CCC 1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. . .

Mat 6:1-18