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Erich
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Would Jesus have given His Apostles the power to forgive sins if He didn’t expect them to use that power? How could the Apostles forgive sins if they’re not told about them?
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deanarrca
Guest
Yes It is called the Sacrament of Penance. You can use that term to refer to the whole process. But I was referring to the term in a practical sense. When someone goes to confession it has different parts, their is the person’s actual confession , then his repentance then the Forgiveness then there is the “penance part” what the Priest gives as a specific penance. The part you are suppose to do.
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CentralFLJames
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Not exactly - humanity has always had the ability to blindly ask God for things, in particular forgiveness. But it was not until Jesus’ sacrifice and conveyance of AUTHORITY that humanity, through Apostolic Catholic Priests has had the means to have a guarantee for forgivness of sins for a person genuinely repentant of their sins and asking with contrite heart.What was the whole point of this?
Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come Your will be done,On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Jesus gave all the POWER to ask forgiveness directly from God. It’s plain as day.
Baptism and sacramental confession are the only normative ways that a person can be forgiven of all sins - small and large. Small, non-grave sins can be forgiven through mass, prayer, fasting, blessings with holy-water, acts of self denial, offering suffering up to God and even the passion of the death experience itself etc.
But grave sin committed after baptism can only be guaranteed forgiven through sacramental confession (or last rites) or conditionally through a perfect act of contrition with an intention of going to sacramental confession as soon as possible. Non-Catholics who are already baptised thus have NO guarantee of any kind of forgivness of grave sins committed after baptism. Given the modern context of a society full of temptations and sin this is why being Protestant is EXTREMELY risky to one’s salvation when a mortal sin can be something as little as a single lustful thought, fornication or masturbation etc. Sure, its possible that the merciful God may forgive a non-Catholic who makes a very contrite direct repentance from grave sin through sincere and sorrowful prayer but it is also extremely risky since there are no assurances that it is forgiven at all.
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jay29
Guest
You are GUARANTEED the forgiveness of sins if you do it the way the Lord intended. Any other way there is NO GUARANTEE. Protestants have a hard time figuring this thing out. It’s just anti clericalism is all.
Great post, CFJ
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deanarrca
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What do you mean repentance has nothing to do with making amends? If you don’t intend to right the wrong or make amends you haven’t repented.
If I am a drunk and repent of my drunkeness but don’t intend to stop drinking then I haven’t really repented have I?
If I break my neighbors window and ask him to forgive me and he does but then I don’t offer to fix the window – have I truly repented?
They go hand in hand
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ckempston
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I don’t doubt that they had this power. I believe the scriptures. It is Catholics who deny that a Christian can be forgiven without a Priest. We can, according to Jesus himself.
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ckempston
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Totally unbiblical. Jesus is the propitiation. As I said, repentance is changing your view of sin to how God views it and stopping the sinful behavior. You cannot “make up” for sin. If you could, Jesus wouldn’t have had to die.
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catholic1seeks
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**Penance, which is biblical, is as simple as restoring the fellowship with God and self even if God’s forgiveness is already present. **
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deanarrca
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Absolutely, one cannot make up for their sins on their own - you are right. Nothing I could do on my own would atone for my sins without God’s grace. I need Gods grace and forgivenes. But since I have forgiveness that does not make null my need to make what I did right to the best of my ability- the effects of my sin are still present.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Not really true. The normative way to be forgiven of sin is through baptism or sacramental confession. It is possible, but not normative that God would make exceptions to the way Christ wanted us to be forgiven. Sacramental confession, which used to entail also public confession in the early church, is act act of humility which is a necessary component of of repentance since at its root all sin comes from pride. Even Protestants who agree that public admission of sin was required in the early church most often still refuse to confess their sins to the Church. Even those few congregations that do this have no guarantee of forgivness since outside of the apostolic succession there are no authorized people who have the authority to loose and bind. By default, a sin is held bound unless one explicitly come to The Church and asks a priest or bishop to forgive that sin through their handed-down apostolic and divinely ordained authority.
Bottom line - anyone can pray for forgivness - Catholic and non-Catholic alike. But the only guarantee of forgivness comes through sacramental confession or through a perfect act of contrition conditioned on the intent to confess through sacramental confession should that person die before being able to do so.
James
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catholic1seeks
Guest
**The atonement penance involves is temperol rather than eternal.
Why do we do penance?
Why do we do penance?
- Even those in the state of forgiveness may have impaired fellowship with God.
- When God remits the eternal penalty for a sin, he may choose a temperol penalty to be dealt with.
- Humans have an inner need to mourn over tragedies. **
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ckempston
Guest
So says the Catholic church. But you’re begging the question and denying other plain passages. How can Catholics accuse Protestants of creating a doctrine out of a single passage, but then do the same themselves?
Here are some simple T/F questions for you:
If I forgive others, my Heavenly Father will forgive me. T/F
When I pray, if I forgive, my Father will forgive me. T/F
Jesus taught us to pray directly to God for forgiveness. T/F
We are to confess to one another so we may be healed. T/F
If we confess He is faithful to forgive. T/F
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CentralFLJames
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This is the deeper dimension to sin that most Protestants never get. Sin always has an adverse effect on:
- One’s own soul (especially with respect to awakening concupiscence for that particular sin - an appetite to repeat it)
- Relationship with God
- Our relationship with Humanity at large and physical Creation (we actually harm the natural order)
- The Church (the body of Christ suffers each time we sin)
James
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ckempston
Guest
Within three sentences, you say completely contradictory things:
You cannot make up for sins.
You need to make what you did right.
If you have been forgiven, your relationship with God has been restored to its original state. There is no way to make it any more “right.”
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ckempston
Guest
I am amazed that you believe Protestants don’t “get” these things, and I think you are totally wrong. Protestants understand that sin hurts ones soul, our relationship with God, those in the world, and those in the Church. You can’t possibly believe that most Protestants don’t believe these things.
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CentralFLJames
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True to all the above.
These things you cite are free form non-contextual scriptural verses. But I say that without prejeduce to their truthfulness. But note that forgivness is not a binary logical equation - all these things stand true but there are also other conditions that come into effect as well.
Let us not omit the very important verse:
"I will give you [Peter - head of The Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
Now let me see if I can give a comprehensive, integrative and objective answer to them all in one statement.
All must be taken together so I think the pivotal verse here is “we must confess to one another if we are to be healed”. This “we” and “one another” is “The Church”. Organic to The Church is a structure and an authority (ref. Peter “on this Rock”). So this means one MUST confess their sins To The Church or its representatives. Clearly it is not pragmatic to get 100% attendance in a single Church from all over the world so clearly common sense implies that a sinner must confess to a duly recognized and authorized representative of the Church. Ergo - this means we must confess to Bishops or Priests. In ADDITION to confessing to The Church (through her priestly representatives) one must also forgive any debts owed others as well as forgive ourselves so we can accept God’s grace in confidence. Further, we should ALSO pray to God directly to express out personal sorrow and ask Him for forgivness (Catholics do this in the privacy of their personal prayers at home or church AS WELL as in the confessional through an act of confession prayer). Now I think I have integrated every one of your above criteria as part of the normal sacrament of confession and the associated private and public penance.
So you see Catholics pray directly to God for every sin we confess both in the confessional an in preparatory acts prior to confession as well as after confession when the priest gives us what The Church requires for penance. In the old days public penance was very extreme - weeks, months and even years of fasting and prayer depending on severity of sin. Now its quiet meditation and prayer in Church - many of us do this in front of the Eucharist.
Note, if a Catholic enters the confessional ill prepared and not of contrite heart and truly repentant (not forgiving other’s transgressions or not of the proper attitude to work hard at changing) then they have made a bad confession and their sins are not forgiven if they are insincere. Of course a person immature in their spirituality may need a substantial time to develop their ability to have a good confession. In other words God knows when a person is sincere to the best of their maturity and emotional state and when they are abusing the confessional (“God will not be mocked”).
So there you are - sacramental Confession is 100% biblical. It is those who refuse to do public confession to The Church that are non-biblical. This element is missing in ALL protestant churches since none of them have valid holy orders through apostolic succession. However, in all fairness, through baptism Protestants get to participate in the grace that flows through The Catholic Church and some Protestants who petition God directly may in some cases be forgiven of sin through sincere desire to repent. But this will only be possible for those who are not in direct and willful disobedience to The Catholic Church (eg. cradle Protestants who do not know better).
James
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deanarrca
Guest
I do not believe I said contradictory things. I need God’s Grace and forgiveness- I can’t just chose to be a good person. But true repentance is a demonstratable thing.
I also think you are saying the same thing. You said true repentance involves a change of heart. A change of heart is an action and involves action. If you don’t change your ways, have you truly repented? If you haven’t truly repented- do you receive forgiveness? And like David just because you are forgiven the results of of your sins remain. In many cases ones sin affects many people. Does true repentance not involve going to your brother and resolving those issues with him? I believe that is very scriptural.
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CentralFLJames
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Sorry, I have to go by the evidence at hand. While Protestants stand in protest and outside The Catholic Church they remain in a grave condition of separation and wound The Body of Christ. If they mostly “got it” as you say - they would be running back to The Catholic Church and repairing the wounds and damages done. Let’s be honest, most Christians, including Catholics only, think of only themselves and God - they do not consciously think in terms of how their sin impacts EVERY person in Creation, Creation itself AND The Church.
James
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ckempston
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You’re correct in that if you don’t change you haven’t repented, but your changing doesn’t “repair” anything any further. It has been repaired already.
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ckempston
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The Catholic church is the one that has wounded the Body of Christ by shutting off the kingdom of heaven, tying up heavy loads on men’s shoulders, loving honor and important seats, and setting aside the commands of God in order to observe their own traditions! (To put it as someone famous once did).
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