Biblical support for "pennance"?

[Church_Militant]

One another simply means another Christian. Catholic sure do like to complicate matters.

Excuse me but that is not true. Read the passage that that is in in James 5.

[14] Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
[15] and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. You cannot fail to see that the elders (priests) were called in order to hear the confession of the sick person.

Catholics do not complicate things beyond the New Testament. The fact is that the vast majority of n-Cs actually oversimplify the Christianity that they spread.

Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

 

[ckempston]

Excuse me but that is not true. Read the passage that that is in in James 5.

[14] Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
[15] and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. You cannot fail to see that the elders (priests) were called in order to hear the confession of the sick person.

Catholics do not complicate things beyond the New Testament. The fact is that the vast majority of n-Cs actually oversimplify the Christianity that they spread.

Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

Yeah, one sentence is talking about Elders, the next sentence says “one another.” If James wanted to get across what you are suggesting, he would have said, “and confess your sins to these same elders, because they’re the only ones with authority to forgive sins.” He didn’t, because what you’re saying is totally untrue. One another means one another. You’re twisting the passage to fit your doctrine as Protestants get accused of on this board so often.

 

[ckempston]

If you don’t like Catholics, and wish to argue only, why are you here.

I love Catholics, which is why I am here. Actually, I was quite close to reverting because I found in studying the ECFs and the Bible itself, that the very basic Catholic theology is right on. However, when I studied where the church went off into Marian doctrines, Papal infallability, Veneration, etc., that’s where I drew the line. All these doctrines contradict the Bible.

There is a small army of us former Protestants who have converted to the catholic (universal) Catholic church.
I came from a Baptist background, and spent years meeting with a church of Christ. I know my Scriptures, friend, it is what led me to where I am now.

A lot of Catholics have converted to Islam, Buddhism, and even Protestantism. Does that make any of these true? Stop with the fallacies, please.

Please stop dissenting for the sake of dissenting - this is not a discussion, it is you sitting on your own pulpit rendering your judgment on the faithful.

I’m dissenting because you are wrong.

I do NOT miss the days when a single man could commandeer a pulpit and propagate his own interpretations.

Still happens in the Catholic church. I hear about it from friends and family occasionally.

 

[deanarrca]

Really? Your concordance must be broken then.
Here’s 100 references or so where the Bible speaks of sackcloth, most of them are in direct relation to penance, which is a demonstration of sorrow for sin. A physical way in which people have shown their contrition for sin.

Being penitent and penance are inexorably linked in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. This is also what was meant when the people in the Gospels were told to bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. Penitence is the like a second step that follows repentance, and penance is a scriptural aspect of that.

Wanna try again?

Thanks Church Militant for a great explanation.
I put penance in terms of needing to make amends, but your description is much clearer and makes more sense. I like how you said it was a demonstration of sorrow for your sins. I knew my explanation was lacking. A demonstration for sorrow may include making amends but it encompasses more.

Sorry I’m a new Catholic and still learning.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Yeah, one sentence is talking about Elders, the next sentence says “one another.” If James wanted to get across what you are suggesting, he would have said, “and confess your sins to these same elders, because they’re the only ones with authority to forgive sins.” He didn’t, because what you’re saying is totally untrue. One another means one another. You’re twisting the passage to fit your doctrine as Protestants get accused of on this board so often.

You are making incorrect assumptions that lead you to improper conclusions because you fail to consider that there are two kinds of sin. Small sins and grave sins. Evidence for this is seen when Jesus washed the feet of the disciples in the upper room he cleansed the disciples of their venial sins. Recollect that Peter wanted his whole body washed - but Christ did not because if He had washed the whole body that would have signified that Peter was in grave sin (entirely unclean). No, Jesus was teaching a principal here that before coming to The Table of The Lord they should wash themselves of their venial sins (and implicitly they should not share in the same cup if in grave sin - recall Judas did not partake of the Lord’s body since he dipped the bread into the dish not the cup and left before the rite was completed) .

When Catholics pray the Creed and effect the mass they are publicly professing their faith and during the penitential rite are also confessing their sins to one another publicly and asking each other’s forgivness.
The Confiteor:

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

This is a public confession of sin just like the early church confessed and as attested to in the NT by James. Anyone in venial sin (virtually everyone since the smallest inconsideration is a venial sin) is then forgiven of sin by one another (through acclimation in the prayer itself) and by God operating through the office of the priesthood present in the effect of the mass and the authority conveyed to “The Church” through loosing and binding.

Those dismissing themselves from receiving communion (Eucharist) are publicly admitting (and often embarrassed) that they are not prepared properly to receive communion (either lacking proper fasting or because they are in grave sin or perhaps are physically sick and can not receive). Thus public self declaration of unworthiness to receive the Eucharist brings to mind the actions of Judas in dismissing himself from The Table of The Lord since he was not in full communion with the Disciples and was unworthy to receive. Reference also 1 Corinthians 11:27-32 where we see that those who are in grave sin suffer illness and are dead in Christ (until they are forgiven and brought back to health). It is clear that if the early church permitted gravely sinful members to stay in their presence but taught them to refrain from receiving the Body of Christ that they had to be forgiven of sins to clear their conscience before they could again enter into full communion.
1 Corinthians 11:27-32:

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. **29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. ** 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep [ed: seperated from Christ by grave sin]. 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

One must also accept that the Bible is not a comprehensive history book nor is it a book that records the form of the liturgy and all the prayers and practices used by the early church. We must accept the fact that the bible DID NOT EVEN EXIST as cannon for about 400 years after Christ. The ecclesial practise and the early forms of worship come to us through tradition. We know from the bible that baptisms took place but the bible is silent on the exact rite used. Similarly without specifying the precise rites we know that the Church and the Apostles forgave sins since this is recorded in the bible through imperative statements to “forgive one another”; and even by the Lord’s Prayer given by Jesus telling us to forgive each other (’… and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our debtors").

You need to reconcile and account for how the Church dealt with 3 fundamental concepts: 1) Venial and Mortal sin and 2) Public confession (in Church) and private confession (examination of conscience) and 3) How forgivness is effected in each of the combinations. Hint: It all comes down to admission of sin (publicly and privately), forgiveness through the sacramental authority of the OFFICE of the Church and repentance (again both publicly and privately).

James

 

[ckempston]

Really? Your concordance must be broken then.
Here’s 100 references or so where the Bible speaks of sackcloth, most of them are in direct relation to penance, which is a demonstration of sorrow for sin. A physical way in which people have shown their contrition for sin.

Being penitent and penance are inexorably linked in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. This is also what was meant when the people in the Gospels were told to bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. Penitence is the like a second step that follows repentance, and penance is a scriptural aspect of that.

Wanna try again?

Notice that not one of these support a Christian doing “penance.”

 

[ckempston]

You are making incorrect assumptions that lead you to improper conclusions because you fail to consider that there are two kinds of sin. Small sins and grave sins. Evidence for this is seen when Jesus washed the feet of the disciples in the upper room he cleansed the disciples of their venial sins. Recollect that Peter wanted his whole body washed - but Christ did not because if He had washed the whole body that would have signified that Peter was in grave sin (entirely unclean). No, Jesus was teaching a principal here that before coming to The Table of The Lord they should wash themselves of their venial sins (and implicitly they should not share in the same cup if in grave sin - recall Judas did not partake of the Lord’s body since he dipped the bread into the dish not the cup and left before the rite was completed) .

Who’se making assumptions? You are. I am just reading the passage.

When Catholics pray the Creed and effect the mass they are publicly professing their faith and during the penitential rite are also confessing their sins to one another publicly and asking each other’s forgivness.

OK. You’ve got it half right then.

This is a public confession of sin just like the early church confessed and as attested to in the NT by James. Anyone in venial sin (virtually everyone since the smallest inconsideration is a venial sin) is then forgiven of sin by one another (through acclimation in the prayer itself) and by God operating through the office of the priesthood present in the effect of the mass and the authority conveyed to “The Church” through loosing and binding.

Wrong. God can and does forgive all sins of Christians directly when the confess to anyone, and pray to God for forgiveness.

Those dismissing themselves from receiving communion (Eucharist) are publicly admitting (and often embarrassed) that they are not prepared properly to receive communion (either lacking proper fasting or because they are in grave sin or perhaps are physically sick and can not receive). Thus public self declaration of unworthiness to receive the Eucharist brings to mind the actions of Judas in dismissing himself from The Table of The Lord since he was not in full communion with the Disciples and was unworthy to receive. Reference also 1 Corinthians 11:27-32 where we see that those who are in grave sin suffer illness and are dead in Christ (until they are forgiven and brought back to health). It is clear that if the early church permitted gravely sinful members to stay in their presence but taught them to refrain from receiving the Body of Christ that they had to be forgiven of sins to clear their conscience before they could again enter into full communion.

OK.

One must also accept that the Bible is not a comprehensive history book nor is it a book that records the form of the liturgy and all the prayers and practices used by the early church. We must accept the fact that the bible DID NOT EVEN EXIST as cannon for about 400 years after Christ. The ecclesial practise and the early forms of worship come to us through tradition. We know from the bible that baptisms took place but the bible is silent on the exact rite used. Similarly without specifying the precise rites we know that the Church and the Apostles forgave sins since this is recorded in the bible through imperative statements to “forgive one another”; and even by the Lord’s Prayer given by Jesus telling us to forgive each other (’… and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our debtors").

Let’s just drop the “who gave us the Bible” mantra. I already know, and accept, where the Bible came from. We both believe it’s true, so let’s focus on the subject at hand. Whether the Apostles forgave anyone has no bearing on the truth of the matter: A Christian can be forgiven by confessing to any other Christian and praying to God for forgiveness. No Priest needed.

You need to reconcile and account for how the Church dealt with 3 fundamental concepts: 1) Venial and Mortal sin and 2) Public confession (in Church) and private confession (examination of conscience) and 3) How forgivness is effected in each of the combinations. Hint: It all comes down to admission of sin (publicly and privately), forgiveness through the sacramental authority of the OFFICE of the Church and repentance (again both publicly and privately).

James

A lot of question begging in this paragraph. Jesus didn’t say, "Forgive us our venial sins (Just FYI, Father, we’ll go to the Priest for the Mortal ones) as we forgive those who sin (venial only) against us.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Wrong. God can and does forgive all sins of Christians directly when the confess to anyone, and pray to God for forgiveness.

This is the essence of your position and what is completely unsubstantiated and WRONG.

Let’s apply some common sense and reason.
Why would we confess our sins to a person that we did not offend or transgress and ask them for forgivness?

If I had an adulterous affair with your wife and later regretted that would I go talk to my brother Tony and say “hey Tony, sorry but I just slept with CK’s wife and really feel bad about it - she might be even be pregnant - will you forgive me bro?”

Ridiculous.

We confess to the person we sinned against and since all sin is a sin against the body of Christ, The Church, we ALSO confess the sin to the authoritative representative of the Church - The Priest or Bishop. Only the head of The Church can speak on behalf of all who were offended and for God and give you a meaningful forgivness and a means to repent (prayer, restitution and perhaps even counseling for dealing with the graveness of ruining another man’s marriage, happiness and family etc.).

James

 

[ckempston]

This is the essence of your position and what is completely unsubstantiated and WRONG.

Let’s apply some common sense and reason.
Why would we confess our sins to a person that we did not offend or transgress and ask them for forgivness?

So when you sin, you sin against a priest?

If I had an adulterous affair with your wife and later regretted that would I go talk to my brother Tony and say “hey Tony, sorry but I just slept with CK’s wife and really feel bad about it - she might be even be pregnant - will you forgive me bro?”

Ridiculous.

James, you keep putting words in my mouth. Please stop, or I will simply stop conversing with you. I never said a Christian can forgive on behalf of someone else. In fact, I said nothing about the person who is confessed to “forgiving.” Again, stop putting words in my mouth.

We confess to the person we sinned against and since all sin is a sin against the body of Christ, The Church, we ALSO confess the sin to the authoritative representative of the Church - The Priest or Bishop. Only the head of The Church can speak on behalf of all who were offended and for God and give you a meaningful forgivness and a means to repent (prayer, restitution and perhaps even counseling for dealing with the graveness of ruining another man’s marriage, happiness and family etc.).

No, all sin is against God, and God alone, and while we are to forgive others of sins that affect us personally, God can and does forgive any sin when forgiveness is asked directly of him.

When Joseph was persued by Pharaoh’s wife, he said he could not do this thing “and sin against God.” (Gen 39)

After David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed, he said he sinned against God alone. (Psalm 51).

When Ananias and Sephira held back what they made from their sale, they “lied to the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 5).

 

[deanarrca]

No, all sin is against God, and God alone, and while we are to forgive others of sins that affect us personally, God can and does forgive any sin when forgiveness is asked directly of him.

You can sin against the church
1 Corinthians 10:31-32 (New American Standard Bible)

31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

32Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

When you blatantly sin you do sin against the church.

 

[ckempston]

You can sin against the church
1 Corinthians 10:31-32 (New American Standard Bible)

31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

32Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

When you blatantly sin you do sin against the church.

Of course you can “sin against” a brother, but the only one capable of forgiving is God, or admittedly, his representative. That was my point. David obviously sinned against several people, but every offense, ultimately, is against God, and only he can actually grant forgiveness, even if we forgive one another.

To use the example provided: If one cheats on his wife, then asks her forgiveness, and she grants it, has his relationship with God been restored? Is that sin actually forgiven before God? NO.

 

[Erich]

"And Forgive Us Our Trespasses, as We Forgive Those Who Trespass Against Us"

This is a petition to God, not a guarantee that God will forgive us. In fact, as CCC 2838 reminds us,

…our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word “as.”

And, as CCC 2842 goes on to say,

This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus. Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.

Finally, as CCC 1440 reminds us,

Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God’s forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

Of course, if you’re not inclined to consider the CCC as authoritative, you might just want to refer to your handy-dandy Bible:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:

18 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

 

[CentralFLJames]

**So when you sin, you sin against a priest? **James, you keep putting words in my mouth. Please stop, or I will simply stop conversing with you. I never said a Christian can forgive on behalf of someone else. In fact, I said nothing about the person who is confessed to “forgiving.” Again, stop putting words in my mouth.

And by being coy and insincere here (see bolded) you do the very same thing you accuse me of. For the record I did no such thing as put words in your mouth. You explicitly stated the error that we are not to confess to a priest but are to confess one to another (while ignoring the clear logical absurdity that you contradict yourself by excluding the priest from being a member of “each other” for simple reason of his office!).

Be more precise and honest in your objection. What you really object to is the efficacy and force of the example that drives home my point in a more personal manner. Your over exaggerated reaction only proves that you see just how ridiculous and superficial your own reasoning is. If you come here to learn - learn. But if you come here to challenge our belief and pontificate unsubstantiated beliefs from a different gospel then be prepared for knockdowns. If the latter is the case take heed that if you can’t spar with valid examples nor take the truth like a man then don’t step into the arena and try to bully reason into a corner with absurd comments. Then most certainly be dignified enough to not cry foul and threaten to withdraw when you get knocked down.

No, all sin is against God, and God alone, and while we are to forgive others of sins that affect us personally, God can and does forgive any sin when forgiveness is asked directly of him.
[Gen 39, Psalm 51, Acts 5]

You are pontificating private opinion that is only partial truth. It is correct only in the part that all sin is against God. Note too that sin also damages our relationships with The Church (both militant and triumphant) and Creation. Further, while God certainly can forgive you are entirely INCORRECT in stating that God DOES forgive ANY sin when forgivness is directly asked of him. This is NOT a teaching of Christ nor the apostles nor The Church. For starters there is such a biblical notion as as repentance and sorrow as prerequisites. And we know of at least one sin committed against the Holy Spirit that is unpardonable. So the notion of “ALL” is a false assertion and we also demonstrate here that there are valid means by which God MAY forgive sins. This is a HUGE difference in spirital outlook. God does NOT HAVE TO forgive sins of anyone. God MAY forgive sins. Take a hint in the scripture that read “God will not be mocked”.

Here is proper teaching about sin:
CC 1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. **At the same time it damages communion with the Church. **For this reason conversion entails both God’s forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

CC 1442
Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action** his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness **and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the “ministry of reconciliation.” (2 Cor 5:18) The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: “Be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor 5:20)

And just why do you also go all the way back to the old testament to find support for your wrong views when the OT is superseded by the NT? Hello, we no longer need all the old rituals. The OT convention for forgivness of sin was ritualistic and required forgivness of sin through tedious formulas, ritual purity of the priests, rites and sacrifices? Are you trying to make a case for tradition? You are starting to sound like what Protestants mischaracterize as Catholic belief and practise.

Although I agree with you that all sin is against God I want to make an example of the danger of a literalistic interpretation of scripture that one can fall into when they are running blind without benefit of apostolic teaching tradition.

To wit:
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside
the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Square that verse with your correct statement (serendipity?) that
all sin is against God.

On a different point of argument. Previously I introduced the notion of different kinds of sin and how forms of confession and forgivness can vary between venial and mortal sin. Here is the scriptural support for this notion.

1 Jn 5:16-17
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. **This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. **There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

This means that individual prayer alone is not sufficient for forgivness of mortal/grave sin. This requires sacramental confession - that is Church Teaching and what we know from Apostolic Tradition.

James

 

[deanarrca]

Of course you can “sin against” a brother, but the only one capable of forgiving is God,

Yes but you implied in an earlier post All sin is against God Alone and that you can’t specifically sin against the Church. Actually I would argue any sin you commit as a Christian is a sin against the Church. You as a Christian represent the Church and are a bad witness and mock the church when you blatantly sin. Now when you sin against a brother in Christ you need to go and be reconciled to him. Likewise when you sin against the Church you need to be reconciled to the Church. So now where do you go to ask forgiveness when you sin against the Church. Just anybody? Does any Christian have the authority to forgive you on behalf of the whole Church?

Next we and The Church agree with you (Forgive me guys for being redundant.I know much of this has already been posted)
*
Only God forgives sin
*
1441*Only God forgives sins.*39 Since he is the Son of God,270, 431
Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40589
Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

Matthew 9:6
But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic,

Luke 5:24
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" He said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

Next He imparted that power to the Apostles

1444In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins981
the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the
Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most
notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you
the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth
shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall
be loosed in heaven."45 "The office of binding and loosing which
was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles
united to its head."46
*
1445*The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude553 from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.
*

I have never once in all my years in Protestant Fundamentalist Churches heard an Explanation of these Scriptures? They avoid them like the plague .

Matthew 16:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

19"I will give you (the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:17-19 (New American Standard Bible)

17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

John 20:23 (New American Standard Bible)

23If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

I am sorry for being redundant. Many of these scriptures have already been posted in this thread. But the “all you need is to ask God’s forgiveness and their is no need to go to the Church” does not explain the reason, meaning or purpose of these scriptures.

Most fundamental Churches I have been in have never addressed these Scriptures and bypass them.

I am no expert, but the Catholic doctrine explains the reason, meaning and necessity of these scriptures very logically and very in accord with scripture.

 

[ckempston]

Yes but you implied in an earlier post All sin is against God Alone and that you can’t specifically sin against the Church. Actually I would argue any sin you commit as a Christian is a sin against the Church. You as a Christian represent the Church and are a bad witness and mock the church when you blatantly sin. Now when you sin against a brother in Christ you need to go and be reconciled to him. Likewise when you sin against the Church you need to be reconciled to the Church. So now where do you go to ask forgiveness when you sin against the Church. Just anybody? Does any Christian have the authority to forgive you on behalf of the whole Church?

Next we and The Church agree with you (Forgive me guys for being redundant.I know much of this has already been posted)
*
Only God forgives sin
*
1441*Only God forgives sins.***39 Since he is the Son of God,270, 431
Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40589
Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

Matthew 9:6
But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic,

Luke 5:24
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" He said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

Next He imparted that power to the Apostles

1444In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins981
the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the
Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most
notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you
the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth
shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall
be loosed in heaven."45 "The office of binding and loosing which
was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles
united to its head."46
*
1445*The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude553 from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.
*

I have never once in all my years in Protestant Fundamentalist Churches heard an Explanation of these Scriptures? They avoid them like the plague .

Matthew 16:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

19"I will give you (the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:17-19 (New American Standard Bible)

17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

John 20:23 (New American Standard Bible)

23If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

I am sorry for being redundant. Many of these scriptures have already been posted in this thread. But the “all you need is to ask God’s forgiveness and their is no need to go to the Church” does not explain the reason, meaning or purpose of these scriptures.

Most fundamental Churches I have been in have never addressed these Scriptures and bypass them.

I am no expert, but the Catholic doctrine explains the reason, meaning and necessity of these scriptures very logically and very in accord with scripture.

Oh, and Catholics have no problems with any scriptures whatsoever. Those passages cause no problems for me.

If you would just simply admit that I don’t need a Priest to have my sins forgiven (which is explicitly stated in the Bible), then we could end this conversation. But the Catholics insist on persisting with mental and semantic gymnastics.

 

[deanarrca]

Those passages cause no problems for me.

**Please then, explain why the Apostles were given the authority by Christ to forgive sins if it was unnecessary. What was it they had the authority to bind and lose? When was that authority taken away? **

If you would just simply admit that I don’t need a Priest to have my sins forgiven

I will not admit that I don’t need to confess certain sins to a Priest because to do so would go against Scripture. What I see is someone who is refusing to listen to the Church.

Matthew 18:17-18 (New American Standard Bible)

17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

John 20:23 (New American Standard Bible)

23If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

 

[cfrancis]

If you would just simply admit that I don’t need a Priest to have my sins forgiven (which is explicitly stated in the Bible), then we could end this conversation. But the Catholics insist on persisting with mental and semantic gymnastics.

Please, where is this explicitly stated?

 

[ckempston]

Please, where is this explicitly stated?

Matthew 6:12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Mark 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Acts 8:22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.*

Lots of talk of forgiveness, no talk of Priests. Let the excuse-making begin.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Oh, and Catholics have no problems with any scriptures whatsoever. Those passages cause no problems for me.

If you would just simply admit that I don’t need a Priest to have my sins forgiven (which is explicitly stated in the Bible), then we could end this conversation. But the Catholics insist on persisting with mental and semantic gymnastics.

Maybe we can get past the empasse if you can acknowledge that there are 2 kinds of sin (venial and mortal) and that GOD IS NOT FORCED to forgive ALL sin simply by requesting it.

The ONLY part that Protestants have right about directly asking God to forgive their sins is that God MAY forgive the VENIAL sins of a baptised person (or a person desiring baptism by desire). through sincere prayer, fasting and alms etc.

I think we CAN agree on this.

The key concept is being IN THE CHURCH. Within the Church God MAY forgive any venial sin that is requested.

The more difficult hurdle here is being OUTSIDE the Church and what constitutes “The Church”.

A person who is in MORTAL sin OR ORIGINAL SIN (i.e. not BAPTISED) is OUTSIDE THE CHURCH.

GOD WILL NOT in general forgive GRAVE sin unless by confession through an apostolicly ordained Priest/Bishop or by an appeal to DIVINE MERCY by a member in good standing of HIS CHURCH (usually while on their death bed) OR by BAPTISM (if not already baptised) by the minimal form (water, and the trinitarian recitation “I baptise they in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit”).

God can of course through His Divine Mercy fathom the sincerity of ANY soul and elect to extend Mercy on who He desires . But outside the Church there is NO way to know who God will extend Mercy to - Mercy is God’s sole dominion. Romans 9:15-18 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

But in general, to have a guarantee of forgivness of mortal sin, God requires that we work through His priests and bishops. The Catholic Church through her authority to loose and bind also permits and authorizes any non-Catholic (or Catholic during emergency) to baptise another into Christ according to the proper form. This is the ONLY way that we know of that a person in mortal sin is guaranteed to be be forgiven of mortal sin without a priest. But note here that the Catholic Church is giving its consent though baptism it is not loosing the general obligation to confess sins through their authority or a way to circumvent their divine authority and office.

James

 

[ckempston]

Maybe we can get past the empasse if you can acknowledge that there are 2 kinds of sin (venial and mortal) and that GOD IS NOT FORCED to forgive ALL sin simply by requesting it.

The ONLY part that Protestants have right about directly asking God to forgive their sins is that God MAY forgive the VENIAL sins of a baptised person (or a person desiring baptism by desire). through sincere prayer, fasting and alms etc.

I think we CAN agree on this.

The key concept is being IN THE CHURCH. Within the Church God MAY forgive any venial sin that is requested.

The more difficult hurdle here is being OUTSIDE the Church and what constitutes “The Church”.

A person who is in MORTAL sin OR ORIGINAL SIN (i.e. not BAPTISED) is OUTSIDE THE CHURCH.

GOD WILL NOT in general forgive GRAVE sin unless by confession through an apostolicly ordained Priest/Bishop or by an appeal to DIVINE MERCY by a member in good standing of HIS CHURCH (usually while on their death bed) OR by BAPTISM (if not already baptised) by the minimal form (water, and the trinitarian recitation “I baptise they in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit”).

God can of course through His Divine Mercy fathom the sincerity of ANY soul and elect to extend Mercy on who He desires . But outside the Church there is NO way to know who God will extend Mercy to - Mercy is God’s sole dominion. Romans 9:15-18 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

But in general, to have a guarantee of forgivness of mortal sin, God requires that we work through His priests and bishops. The Catholic Church through her authority to loose and bind also permits and authorizes any non-Catholic (or Catholic during emergency) to baptise another into Christ according to the proper form. This is the ONLY way that we know of that a person in mortal sin is guaranteed to be be forgiven of mortal sin without a priest.

James

Yes, there is venial and mortal sin. Both can be forgiven directly from God. I don’t agree with the Catholic “list” mentality in this regard, however.