Biblical support for "pennance"?

[CentralFLJames]

No doubt these are terrible sins and bring shame on Christ. However it does not necessarily follow that the whole church has been sinned against.

Do you have Biblical support that all sins are against the church?

Hi JA IV - long time no see - they finally let you out of bad-posting-jail to return back on the boards on better behavior?

We have already given discussions and examples on how sin can be against the Church. Go back and read the whole thread. Hint: “Saul Saul why do you persecute me…”…

James

 

[389670]

Traditional Ang;3972773]Justasking4:

As our Lord said in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats (the One about Judgment Day):

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

*Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." *
(Matthew 25:31-46 RSV)

*But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. * **(John 19:34 RSV)

**Now as Saul journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” (**Acts 9:3-6 RSV)

Read all of I Corinthians 10-12**
*
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.* **(James 1:27 RSV)

***What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?*If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

**(James 2:14-17 RSV)

---

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? *
**(I John 3:14-17 RSV)

**If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. (I John 4:20 RSV)

There are more, but those should be sufficient. Our Lord equates Himself with the Church and states that wrongs committed against Him are wrongs against the Community (because anything that effects me effects the people I live and work with) and vice versa…
Where do you get the idea from these passages that these are saying a person who sins sins against the church?
Are you saying that Christ is the church?

This is how the Early Church treated it. As I said previously, even serious sins committed in secret were to be confessed to the Bishop (or his designated priest) in front of the whole assembly of those baptized believers who were admitted to the Holy Mysteries of the Eucharist.

Confessing sins is one thing. Do you know when the early church required penance before these early christians could be forgiven?

If you don’t like this, or you think this is somehow not Scriptural, I suggest you take up the issue with the men and women (and children) who gave up everything to follow Christ and gave up their lives on the arena floor instead of denying the faith they received from the Apostles.

What does this have to do with sinning against the church?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3973440]Hi JA IV - long time no see - they finally let you out of bad-posting-jail to return back on the boards on better behavior?

Sounds like you missed me----

We have already given discussions and examples on how sin can be against the Church. Go back and read the whole thread. Hint: “Saul Saul why do you persecute me…”…

James

No doubt that Christ is closely associated with His church. Even in the passage you allude to states anything about sinning against the church. Paul also regrets the time he persecuted the church but never equates other sins that people commit as sinning against the church. For example is there any reference of sinning against the church when a person lies or steals?

Your insights are always welcomed…

 

[CentralFLJames]

Sounds like you missed me----

No doubt that Christ is closely associated with His church. Even in the passage you allude to states anything about sinning against the church. Paul also regrets the time he persecuted the church but never equates other sins that people commit as sinning against the church. For example is there any reference of sinning against the church when a person lies or steals?

Your insights are always welcomed…

Every part of the human body has a use and function. Even so, every member of a Church has a place of work and service that is needful. Disease or infection in one part of the human body has an adverse affect on the rest of the body. Even so, sin in one member of the Church has an adverse effect upon every member. “And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it . . . Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” I Cor. 12:26-a, 27

One drop of contaminated water will contaminate a whole reservoir of pure water, but one drop of pure water will not purify a reservoir of contaminated water. One deadly cancer cell can be disastrous to an entire body of healthy cells. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.” I Cor. 5:6 The Church at Corinth had a member who was openly involved in immorality. The Church had not mourned over this, nor had they taken any action at all.

Clearly the principal is biblical.

James

 

[guanophore]

I’m confused.

There is no doubt of that here!

What passage in the Gospels shows that a person must do some kind pennance before that person will be forgiven?

“do pennance” is another way of rendering “repent!”. The concept, found both in the Gk. and Latin, is to turn from sin to Christ, and continually do works that befit repentance.

Do you also believe that a person must confess to a priest to be forgiven?

This is the normative means for dealing with mortal sins after baptism, but there are many others… For example, love covers a multitude of sins.

 

[guanophore]

Is there a document in the church that states when a person sins they sin against the church? This certainly is not supported by the passage above.

Yes. The document is the New Testament. In it, Jesus teaches that what we do to the least of his brethren, we do unto Him. He also identifies HImself completely with His Church. He is the Head, and we are the body.

Catholics do not require doctrine to be “proof texted” by certain verses. This custom is a tradition of man that emerged out of the Reformation.

 

[guanophore]

Sounds like you missed me----

The absence of calumny and detraction is always a joyful event. Like oil running down on the beard of Aaron.

No doubt that Christ is closely associated with His church. Even in the passage you allude to states anything about sinning against the church.

Jesus completely identifies Himself with His Church. When Saul of Tarsus is persecuting the church, Jesus confronts him saying “why do you persecute ME?”

Paul also regrets the time he persecuted the church but never equates other sins that people commit as sinning against the church. For example is there any reference of sinning against the church when a person lies or steals?

Paul makes it clear in Corinthians that the actions of the members of the Body of Christ affect all the members. He gives the example of one member having sex with a prostitute, and explains that such a person joins the members of Christ to her.