Yes, but to do all of those things without faith in Christ is a futile attempt to save yourself because you are trusting in yourself and what you do to justify yourself instead of your faith and trust in Christ and what He has done for you.
I must be misunderstanding your response. It seems you are saying the fathers point of view is the son is automatically righteous for the plain and simple reason he is in the “position” of being the father’s son?
A saving faith?De_Maria:
It is the teaching of Evangelicals that faith is accompanied by works of love.
Well, since that is the Catholic Teaching, as well, what do you see as the misunderstanding? Why do Evangelicals claim that the Catholic Church has got it wrong?
Where is saving faith in the Bible?De_Maria:
As saving faith is a faith that hears the Gospel, believes the Gospel message and actively responds to Gospel in trust and obedience.
You know you have a saving faith if you believe that Christ is the son of God and He has become the treasure of your heart. Obedience and worship and everything we do as Christians comes from the fact that Christ is our treasure, He is what we long for, He is what brings us eternal joy, and He is who’s arms we rest in and who’s presence we celebrate.
So, it’s the order of things.
I get it.
So, first we are transformed. And our works flow from the transformation.
So, I’m curious.
What do you see as the difference in those two positions? I see a lack of a free will in the Evangelical position. In other words, monergism vs synergism.
It is a saving faith that makes someone an adopted son of God. That faith changes our position before God and changes our actions and attitudes to reflect those of our father. Our obedience is a result of faith not an addition to it.
Please forgive me if I came across as offensive. To understand why we think this you would need to look at how we receive grace from our perspective. My first thought when I heard the term “Sacraments are vehicles of grace” is why are you having to do something to get something that God has already given and keeps giving because of our faith/trust in Christ. From my perspective, all grace comes to me because I have faith in Christ and everything “religious” I do is a result of that grace I receive through faith.
Good answer. Processing. I’ll see if I can come up with a good response, tomorrow. Thanks.De_Maria:
Please forgive me if I came across as offensive. To understand why we think this you would need to look at how we receive grace from our perspective. My first thought when I heard the term “Sacraments are vehicles of grace” is why are you having to do something to get something that God has already given and keeps giving because of our faith/trust in Christ. From my perspective, all grace comes to me because I have faith in Christ and everything “religious” I do is a result of that grace I receive through faith.
I hope you can see that it is easy to believe that evangelicals believe that they receive grace and salvation because of who we are (positional-declared righteous as adopted Children of God) and Catholics believe that they receive grace and salvation by what they do (faith+sacraments and works).
No problem. I’ll get over it.
Basically, because that’s what the Word of God instructs us to do. Heb 13:17; 2 Cor 5:20
When we express our faith in Him, by submitting to the Sacraments, wherein, He works and completes that which He started in us.
That’s my perspective, as well. Except that Christ said I will receive His grace through His Sacraments. (Mark 16:16; all His signs and healings “i.e. let it be done according to your faith).
That’s actually very close to what we believe. Except that we don’t boast about it . We see this boasting attitude as Pharisaical. It’s like boasting of your great faith and declaring yourself saved because you have pronounced it so. (Luke 18:9).
Let’s look to Scripture.
I know I’m repeating this here, but it’s for a reason. You say, “declared righteous”. In other words, you don’t really consider yourselves “made righteous”, do you? This is why I hear say that Evangelicals only believe they are forensically righteous. Covered over but not truly transformed.
Convert would not be my word. You cannot convert the converted. But to unlock scripture to God’s way of doing things is a worthy task.
I’m sorry you totally lost me here. What did I misunderstand? I’m not sure why you think I’m saying in addition to? I thought you said…saving faith included trust and obedience? Now you are saying obedience is a result of saving faith? Since the son didn’t trust the father either I’m guessing you’re going to pull that out as well. Leaving saving faith equals faith. Which brings us back to where this all started, what’s the difference between faith and saving faith?
Did you mean faith or saving faith here? Because I would define faith to be what I said the young girl had that kept her going to church and not when she had the emotional “saving faith” that made her want to be rebaptized.
I think maybe you mean unlocking the minds of Catholics so that they can grasp a Reformed perspective/interpretation of the Scriptures? I am sure you believe your Reformed point of view is “God’s way”.
I didn’t know that this was the reason Catholicism considered Confirmation a sacrament.
Well, i didnt mean to imply that. But that it can be seen as a type of Confirmation which the Apostles received.rcwitness:
I didn’t know that this was the reason Catholicism considered Confirmation a sacrament.
Thanks
I’ve read all of your responses guanophore, I will not rebuttal your rebuttal, not because I can’t, but because you don’t actually debate the argument theologically, or textually, you ride on the coattails of all that it means to be Catholic. For you that is enough. Okay…We are equally pursuaded that what we have received from the Apostles is “God’s Way”. However, I do agree with you, unlocking the Scriptures to better understand and live in the Kingdom is a very worthy task.