Big Bang cannot be caused

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The Cyclical theory has been shown to *also *imply the beginning of the universe, since by the law of thermodynamics we could only have gone through a certain number of past cycles. It thus does not avoid the primary problem with the Big Bang theory. Furthermore, we have recently discovered that the acceleration of the universe is actually *increasing *with time (objects are moving away from each other faster and faster), which is against this theory’s claim that eventually the expansion will slow down and the universe will contract. There is thus no clear mechanism that could make this process feasible and it is no longer of great important to the debate.
In the earlier models the entropy increased, However, in the newer two brane models and extra dimensions where the cycle is due to the collision of the M-Branes, the entropy density does not build up from cycle to cycle, but instead the entropy density undergoes cyclic behavior.
 
In the earlier models the entropy increased, However, in the newer two brane models and extra dimensions where the cycle is due to the collision of the M-Branes, the entropy density does not build up from cycle to cycle, but instead the entropy density undergoes cyclic behavior.
Yet more hand waving trying to avoid the obvious conclusions. If it follows the rest of the history of cosmology, it will be disproven soon enough.

Regardless, it also does not solve the problem of lack of evidence for any contraction. The Standard model is hence far more reasonable at this point in time. 🤷
 
Ok, I finally found a response from William Lane Craig (I knew he had one somewhere):

I’m pretty sure this is the model you are talking about. As he points out, it’s ridiculously speculative and still doesn’t solve the problem.
These Ekpyrotic scenarios have already gone through a number of revisions as deficiencies in them have been exposed. In the most recent revision called the cyclic Ekpyrotic model, we are asked to envision two 3-dimensional membranes (sometimes these are called branes for short) existing in a 5-dimensional space. These 3-dimensional membranes which exist in this higher 5-dimensional state are supposed to be parallel to each other and to be in an eternal process of approaching one another and colliding and then receded from one another. Then they re-approach, collide, and recede from one another in an eternal cycle. That is why it is called a cyclic Ekpyrotic model. Each time the two membranes collide and spank together that causes one of the membranes to expand. That membrane is our universe. So with each collision, the expansion of our universe is renewed, keeps on going, thus the universe never had a beginning, never came to exist. Even though our 3-dimensional universe is expanding, this whole 5-dimensional setup is eternal and never had a beginning.

It hardly needs to be said that this is little different than science fiction. It is so speculative, its speculation builds upon speculation. There are all kinds of problems with it but some of these are so technical that I don’t think I will go into them. Let me just mention one of the problems. What this model really amounts to is our old friend the oscillating model writ large in 5-dimensions. As such it faces the same problem that the oscillating model did; namely, it is impossible for the universe to go through a singularity from a contraction and come back to a new bounce. Rather, the universe would just end at the end of one of the cycles. So this model has not been able to deliver on its promises to explain the large scale structure of the observable universe. In light of all of these problems, Andrei Linde has recently complained that while this cyclic Ekpyrotic scenario is very popular among journalists, it has remained “unpopular among scientists.”

But let’s not get into all those technical difficulties. I think the more important point is this: It turns out that just like the chaotic inflationary model that we discussed last time, the cyclic Ekpyrotic universe cannot be eternal in the past. In September of 2001, Borde and Vilenkin in cooperation of Alan Guth (the father of inflationary cosmology) were able to generalize their earlier results which show that inflationary models cannot be eternal in the past. They were able to extend these conclusions to other models of the universe. Specifically they said “our argument can be straight forwardly extended to cosmology in higher dimensions, specifically brane cosmology.” So according to Vilenkin, “It follows from our theorem that the cyclic universe is past incomplete” – that is to say, it goes back to an initial singularity. The need for the initial singularity has not been eliminated. Therefore, even despite its other problems, if those can be solved the cycle Ekpyrotic scenario cannot be past eternal.

That brings us right up to the current edge of cosmological speculation today. As I said last time, the history of 20th century cosmology has in a sense been a history of the failure of one theory after another to avert the beginning of the universe predicted by the standard Big Bang model. So when people say to you, “You can’t trust this scientific evidence, it comes and goes,” that is a half truth.[11] What comes and goes are all of these theoretical attempts to try to avoid the beginning of the universe predicted by the standard model, but the standard model first proposed back in 1920s by Friedman and Lemaitre continues to survive. So it has been one confirmation after another of the prediction of the standard model that the universe began to exist. Laypeople who think the results of contemporary cosmology are fleeting and uncertain have mistaken the enduring stability of the standard model for the transitory and fleeting quality of all of these challenges to the standard model that have been proposed over the decades.

Science is always provisional, and therefore the evidence is always tentative and our conclusions are tentative. Nevertheless, I think it is hard to deny that the best evidence does stubbornly continue to indicate that the universe began to exist.

Read more: reasonablefaith.org/defenders-1-podcast/transcript/s05-05#ixzz47ukbEyum
 
Ok, I finally found a response from William Lane Craig (I knew he had one somewhere):

I’m pretty sure this is the model you are talking about. As he points out, it’s ridiculously speculative and still doesn’t solve the problem.
It is not a reasonable response because I don’t believe that the BVG model proves what creationists claim. Further he does not go into the problems with the BB theory.
 
It is not a reasonable response because I don’t believe that the BVG model proves what creationists claim. Further he does not go into the problems with the BB theory.
First, please don’t be disingenuous. William Lane Craig is not a “creationist” as most people understand the word to mean (meaning young earth creationists). He does, as all Christians, believe in a creator, but if we hold this to be the definition of “creationist” then even Christian’s who staunchly defend evolution and so forth are “creationists,” in which case the word becomes meaningless.

The only scientific claim we are making is that the universe had a beginning, which is a pretty obvious conclusion of modern cosmology. Anyone who would like to disagree with these findings must provide solid reasons to take a different view, not faulty and extremely recent hypothetical models.

Finally, of course this quote doesn’t go into any of the weaknesses of the Big Bang theory. That wasn’t the topic under discussion. To shift to that topic is to completely change the course of the conversation once again. Regardless, there is solid reason to believe that under ANY cosmological model involving expansion, the universe must have had a beginning, as William Lane Craig mentioned. Unfortunately, many atheists (and scientists) are quite willing to jump on any possible alternative theory that comes up to escape the obvious. In my opinion, this merely shows how frantically they are clutching at straws to uphold their personal opinions over the evidence. 😉
 
Your analogy breaks down because the Billiard ball in question is actually time and space.
Well thats not the analogy. I’m talking about the cause - apart from the billiard ball - which actuates the movement of the billiard ball from its stationary position. Presumably Bahman doesn’t think billiard balls cause themselves to move.
…Hence we can’t think of a time before the start of time! That is nonsensical.
It’s biblical. Some say the bible is nonsense. Not me.
…Nor can we think of a space outside of space.
I bet God can think of an infinite number of space/times apart from our own.
…This is, however, not harmful, but rather *helpful *to the theistic worldview, because it shows that the universe’s cause must have been without either time or space. 😉
Where (and when) were Lucifer and Gabriel and Jesus before the creation of this universe?

"…Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
 
Are you smarter than the astrophysicist(s) who developed the theory in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics? Or could it be that you do not understand? :hmmm:
According to his constant threads explaining how all physics, theology, and God Himself are wrong… yeah, I am quite sure he is either smarter or thinks he is… one of the two lol.
 
Where (and when) were Lucifer and Gabriel and Jesus before the creation of this universe?

"…Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
Actually, we have no definitive answer to those questions – except the last. Jesus as the incarnate human who was God came into being A.D. 0-5, approximately. 😉
 
First, please don’t be disingenuous. William Lane Craig is not a “creationist” as most people understand the word to mean (meaning young earth creationists). He does, as all Christians, believe in a creator, but if we hold this to be the definition of “creationist” then even Christian’s who staunchly defend evolution and so forth are “creationists,” in which case the word becomes meaningless.
Although it may score debating points by discussing what the word creationist really means, it does not respond effectively to the fact that the BVG theorem is being cited as proving something which it really does not.
 
Finally, of course this quote doesn’t go into any of the weaknesses of the Big Bang theory. That wasn’t the topic under discussion. To shift to that topic is to completely change the course of the conversation once again.
The topic of the thread is the BB theory cannot be caused. The weaknesses of the BB theory show it to be lacking in credibility and so would be relevant to the topic of the thread.
 
A past-eternal, perpetual motion machine universe is the only theory which avoids the God conclusion AFAICT.

But it comes at a huge price. #Sisyphus

 
A past-eternal, perpetual motion machine universe is the only theory which avoids the God conclusion AFAICT.

But it comes at a huge price. #Sisyphus

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jQDnxBflsKQ/Tm9hZVB9fYI/AAAAAAAAAsw/ymKGz2ouLlA/s1600/sisyphus-sign.jpg
One solution to the increase in entropy question is to examine an equation of state of dark energy with w< -1. Under these conditions, the entropy decreases in the contraction phase.
arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0703162v1.pdf
 
…and you think ‘information’ is destroyed in each cycle?
 
Although it may score debating points by discussing what the word creationist really means, it does not respond effectively to the fact that the BVG theorem is being cited as proving something which it really does not.
What *exactly *is it being cited as proof of that it does not prove? Do you expect me to believe that if you don’t explain yourself? 🤷
 
We don’t have any point before Big Bang point hence we cannot have any physical theory which can explain the Big Bang.
God is not a physical theory. God is the ultimate first cause, but he is not a physical being inside of space and time. As St. Thomas Aquinas puts it, God is not highest being, but the perfect act of to be itself. No, the Big Bang could not have had a physical cause, but because the universe exists, and it couldn’t have been caused by any physical theory, something space-less and timeless must have created it. This we call God.
 
So why did it come into being then, precisely?
Why or how?
We are perfectly in agreement that no physical explanation requiring time could have caused it. That is nonsensical. But you seem to be taking the position that it popped into existence from nothing. How, exactly?
We just proved that Big Bang is not physically possible.
After all “nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could.”
That is not completely true. What are you referring to is conservation law. The is no reason to believe that conservation law are valid at Big Bang.
  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
  2. The Universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the universe had a cause.
What do you mean with cause?
Refute that. Remember, to successfully refute this argument, you must reject either premise one, premise two, or both premise one and two. If you accept both one and two, then three logically follows, regardless of how little you like it.
I have arguments against timeless and timebound God: We have problem with dynamic of creation with timeless God. Temporal God who is eternal cannot exist either since it take infinite waiting to reach from eternal past to now.
 
Okay…but who’s said anything about a physical theory? The change is one of creation, so to attempt to put it into a physical theory (which deals with already existing things) is a non-starter.
I don’t understand what do you mean?
 
Are you smarter than the astrophysicist(s) who developed the theory in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics? Or could it be that you do not understand? :hmmm:
I am a physicist and I had a course on cosmology. We don’t know what Big Bang is since we don’t know the quantum gravity. We have quantum theories for three of four forces. What I am arguing is about the point before Big Bang.
 
Agreed. Good thing for us God isn’t physical or we wouldn’t be here. 👍
I have arguments against timeless and timebound God: We have problem with dynamic of creation with timeless God. Temporal God who is eternal cannot exist either since it take infinite waiting to reach from eternal past to now.
 
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