Big Bang Myth

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The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which in effect claims that which cannot be measured exactly does not occur exactly (uncertainty principle), has been illegitimately extended to the macro level in which cosmologists fantasize about entire universes popping into existence out of nothing.

All of this is a spin-off of Heinsenberg’s nonsensical claim that he conclusively disproved the law of causality.

On the other hand, if a cosmologist believes that Heisenberg’s disproved the law of causality, then by logical extension of Heisenberg’s quantum fluctuations, it must apply to the cosmologist himself who then only exists, as anything else does according to Bohr, when it “collapses into existence”. This collapse into existence of the cosmologist can only happen when another person perceives the cosmologist. And this event must be synchronized with the perceiver’s collapse into existence, and so on…
Hey if you don’t like the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM because of its implication for causality; jump on Hugh Everitt’s Many World Interpretation band wagon, it’s deterministic.
The utter nonsense entailed in the idea that nothing exists until it is perceived leads to the belief that physics does not actually study reality; rather than physics being about reality, it is only about the theorems in the mind of the physicists.
I don’t understand what you are trying to say. But don’t bother explaining; it appears to be superfluous to the point I was making…
This is where you have made an unwarranted leap in logic. The scientist cannot say “nothing”. He can only say he does not know. There is a monumental difference between the two answers.

Furthermore, not only must the scientists say he does not know, he must maintain that science “cannot” know.

If in fact there was “nothing” before the initial singularity, science cannot affirm that idea because the “nothing” can never be an object of scientific knowledge.

There is an infinite gap between “nothing” and “something”, between being and non-being, between existence and non-existence.
An UNWARRENTED leap in logic!!! My, my I must be a very bad boy. I can tell that you have never put much thought into the simple but intriguing statement, “nothing exists”. One of my first forays into the maelstrom that is this forum I proposed a proof of God with the syllogism: Nothing exists/God is Nothing/ therefore God Exists. Boy that drew the loonies out of the woods and I was branded a heretic among other pejorative accusations. The word “nothing” apparently is denotative, but to those with some philosophical imagination there are many connotations. For example, Leucippus pointed out, “unless there is a void with a separate being of its own, ‘what is’ cannot be moved – nor again can it be ‘many’, since there is nothing to keep things apart.” What he is pointing out is that there could be no motion nor discrete entities (form) without “nothing” keeping things apart. In this connotation ‘nothing’ certainly is something and the leap in logic is a mere baby step!.
I am not sure I understand this phrase “an infinite sea of continuous space-like substance I call infinite nothingness”. Modern cosmological thinking gets fuzzy and anti-metaphysical when it asserts that nothing is something. Accordingly, on what grounds do you refer to a supposedly existing substance as nothing? Is this not the same logical and ontological error made by many modern cosmologist who blur the line between non-existence and existence.
On the same grounds as Leucippus, the Greek teacher of Democritus.

Yppop
 
Itenerant1

Your question mark in a previous post refers to my question about the number 137. I threw that in to get a reading on the breath of scientific knowledge floating around on this thread.

For your information the reciprocal of 137 (approximately) is the value of the fine structure constant, a universal, dimensionless constant. Here are a couple of quotes I found on Wikipedia:

There is a most profound and beautiful question associated with the observed coupling constant, e the amplitude for a real electron to emit or absorb a real photon. It is a simple number that has been experimentally determined to be close to – 0.08542455. (My physicist friends won’t recognize this, because they like to remember it as the inverse of its square: about 137.03597 with about an uncertainty of about 2 in the last decimal place. It has been a mystery ever since it was discovered mor than fifty years ago, and all good theoretical physicists put this number up on their wall and worry about it.) Immediately you would like to know where this number for coupling comes from: is it related to pi or perhaps to the base of natural logarithms? Nobody know. It’s one of the great greatest damn mysteries of physics: a magic number that comes to us with no understanding by man. You might say the “hand of God” wrote the number , and “we don’t know how He pushed his pencil.” We know what kind of a dance to do experimentally to measure this number very accurately, but we don’t know what kind of dance to do on the computer to make this number come out, without putting it in secretly!”
  • Richard Feynman (1985), QED: The Strange Theory of Lightand Matter, Princeton University Pree, p.129
"The mystery about α is actually a double mystery. The first mystery — the origin of its numerical value α ≈ 1/137 has been recognized and discussed for decades. The second mystery — the range of its domain — is generally unrecognized.
  • Malcolm H. MacGregor (2007), The Power of Alpha, World Scientific, p. 69
*“If alpha [the fine structure constant] were bigger than it really is, we should not be able to distinguish matter from ether [the vacuum, nothingness], and our task to disentangle the natural laws would be hopelessly difficult. The fact however that alpha has just its value 1/137 is certainly no chance but itself a law of nature. It is clear that the explanation of this number must be the central problem of natural philosophy.”
*- Max Born, Arthur I. Miller (2009), Deciphering the Cosmic Number: The Strange Friendship of Wolfgang Pauli and Carl Jung, W.W. Norton & Co., p. 253,

Yppop
 
An UNWARRENTED leap in logic!!! My, my I must be a very bad boy. I can tell that you have never put much thought into the simple but intriguing statement, “nothing exists”. One of my first forays into the maelstrom that is this forum I proposed a proof of God with the syllogism: Nothing exists/God is Nothing/ therefore God Exists.
The premiss of your syllogism is fatally flawed since it equivocates on “nothing”. And God is not “nothing” in any usual sense of the word.

In regard to your conclusion, God does more than exist – God is Existence - “I Am Who Am” He said to Moses.
Boy that drew the loonies out of the woods and I was branded a heretic among other pejorative accusations. The word “nothing” apparently is denotative, but to those with some philosophical imagination there are many connotations. For example, Leucippus pointed out, “unless there is a void with a separate being of its own, ‘what is’ cannot be moved – nor again can it be ‘many’, since there is nothing to keep things apart.” What he is pointing out is that there could be no motion nor discrete entities (form) without “nothing” keeping things apart. In this connotation ‘nothing’ certainly is something and the leap in logic is a mere baby step!.
One can use “nothing” to refer to the void or space if the meaning is stipulated. However, “nothing” used in reference to the void or physical space carries a very different meaning than the ontological stipulation of “nothing” as absolute non-existence or non-being.

The universe cannot bring anything into existence from absolute non-existence. Nature generates only from that which already possesses some sort of existence; natural causal forces generate things from already existing matter and energy.

The bridge between absolute non-existence to existence can only be made by an actually infinite power – it is called creatio ex nihilo.

Physical theories that attribute the power of *creatio ex nihilo *to the universe itself (matter/energy, space or void, or to “nothing”) are mere flights of fancy, and they are fatally flawed in regard to the laws of causality and metaphysical realities.
 
Itenerant1

Your question mark in a previous post refers to my question about the number 137. I threw that in to get a reading on the breath of scientific knowledge floating around on this thread.

For your information the reciprocal of 137 (approximately) is the value of the fine structure constant, a universal, dimensionless constant. Here are a couple of quotes I found on Wikipedia:

There is a most profound and beautiful question associated with the observed coupling constant, e the amplitude for a real electron to emit or absorb a real photon. It is a simple number that has been experimentally determined to be close to – 0.08542455. (My physicist friends won’t recognize this, because they like to remember it as the inverse of its square: about 137.03597 with about an uncertainty of about 2 in the last decimal place. It has been a mystery ever since it was discovered mor than fifty years ago, and all good theoretical physicists put this number up on their wall and worry about it.) Immediately you would like to know where this number for coupling comes from: is it related to pi or perhaps to the base of natural logarithms? Nobody know. It’s one of the great greatest damn mysteries of physics: a magic number that comes to us with no understanding by man. You might say the “hand of God” wrote the number , and “we don’t know how He pushed his pencil.” We know what kind of a dance to do experimentally to measure this number very accurately, but we don’t know what kind of dance to do on the computer to make this number come out, without putting it in secretly!”
  • Richard Feynman (1985), QED: The Strange Theory of Lightand Matter, Princeton University Pree, p.129
"The mystery about α is actually a double mystery. The first mystery — the origin of its numerical value α ≈ 1/137 has been recognized and discussed for decades. The second mystery — the range of its domain — is generally unrecognized.
  • Malcolm H. MacGregor (2007), The Power of Alpha, World Scientific, p. 69
*“If alpha [the fine structure constant] were bigger than it really is, we should not be able to distinguish matter from ether [the vacuum, nothingness], and our task to disentangle the natural laws would be hopelessly difficult. The fact however that alpha has just its value 1/137 is certainly no chance but itself a law of nature. It is clear that the explanation of this number must be the central problem of natural philosophy.”
*- Max Born, Arthur I. Miller (2009), Deciphering the Cosmic Number: The Strange Friendship of Wolfgang Pauli and Carl Jung, W.W. Norton & Co., p. 253,

Yppop
This is nonsense because the inverse of 137.036 is .00729735…which is nowhere near 0.08542455.
 
The premiss of your syllogism is fatally flawed since it equivocates on “nothing”. And God is not “nothing” in any usual sense of the word.

In regard to your conclusion, God does more than exist – God is Existence - “I Am Who Am” He said to Moses.

One can use “nothing” to refer to the void or space if the meaning is stipulated. However, “nothing” used in reference to the void or physical space carries a very different meaning than the ontological stipulation of “nothing” as absolute non-existence or non-being.

The universe cannot bring anything into existence from absolute non-existence. Nature generates only from that which already possesses some sort of existence; natural causal forces generate things from already existing matter and energy.

The bridge between absolute non-existence to existence can only be made by an actually infinite power – it is called creatio ex nihilo.

Physical theories that attribute the power of *creatio ex nihilo *to the universe itself (matter/energy, space or void, or to “nothing”) are mere flights of fancy, and they are fatally flawed in regard to the laws of causality and metaphysical realities.
The syllogism equivocates only if you don’t know what I mean by “nothing”. So this can’t be an intellectual discussion if you don’t accept what I mean when I my use the word nothing, especially since the truth of the first premise “nothing exists” is a statement that can only mean that “nothing” has some existence. Furthermore as you said, “God is Existence”; then consider this: God is also infinite and God is also omnipresent, so infinite, omnipresent existence leaves no room for non-existence, therefore everything, including whatever can be meant by the word “nothing”, is existent. Try imagining “nothing’ in the sense of non-existence; in all cases that I am aware of, the thought of nothing stimulates dimensionality, empty space if you will. This also includes words like void, true vacuum, nihilo, and plenum, and yes, existence. The only thing that can truly be labeled “nothing” in the meaning of non-existence is a single point of space imagined from its interior so that it doesn’t exist in a background of dimensionality and that falls into the category with squared circles, effects without causes, and the fourth and higher spatial dimensions. At a deeper level of thought, “non-existence” does not exist.

What I have been trying to explain with my spatial model of dual reality is a possible way of describing creatio ex nihilo based on physical concepts, namely by applying the distinction in space determined by the mathematics of rational versus real numbers. Can you offer anything better to counter the non-believers arguments about creation? Sorry, but the “existence" argument just won’t wash. Since joining this forum, especially on my own thread "God Exists, but How?’ in order to present my model of dual reality as a possible physical explanation about how God might have created reality, I have been receiving nothing but friendly fire from fellow believers and not a single response from a non-believer. The apparent refusal of non-believers to engage, has given me an indication that I am on the right track. I had hoped someone would give my theory a depth of investigation, but have been disappointed. So be it!

I think anyone who attempts to present an original idea, one that is their own and not a rehash of someone else’s, deserves at least a minimal attempt at understanding. I offer my own experience in this forum as an example: there have been three other’s that I have had discussions with that were presenting novel ideas: Greylorn, JameSSaint, and DeTales. I did a complete critique of Greylorn’s model of reality; as much of a critique of JSS’s model as I could before I realized I needed to see his diagrams for complete understanding, and read a book by DeTales mentor to understand where he was coming from. None of the three presented their unique views directly in a thread as I had on my own thread and even though I disagreed with their “philosophies” to a large extent, I took them for what they were: well thought out systems of belief formalized through much study and contemplation. I did not expect reciprocation from those three because they had their own view of reality. I had hoped that someone else would have the intellectual acumen to engage my thesis in an open minded way. I certainly appreciate the reasonableness of posts addressed to me by HelenaMT and a few others; most everyone else seems to take a negative approach to discussion.

There is one thing I have gained from my participation in this forum: although I do not consider myself a genius, I do gather some solace from source of the title of one of my favorite books by John Kennedy Toole, namely the Jonathon Swift quotation, “when true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.”
Yppop
 
The syllogism equivocates only if you don’t know what I mean by “nothing”. So this can’t be an intellectual discussion if you don’t accept what I mean when I my use the word nothing, especially since the truth of the first premise “nothing exists” is a statement that can only mean that “nothing” has some existence.
Your equivocation involves the reification of “nothing” in the phrase “nothing exists”, and thereby posing it as the direct object or subject of “existence”.
Furthermore as you said, “God is Existence”; then consider this: God is also infinite and God is also omnipresent, so infinite, omnipresent existence leaves no room for non-existence, therefore everything, including whatever can be meant by the word “nothing”, is existent.
“Nothing” means “no-thing”. It does not mean “every-thing”.
Try imagining “nothing’ in the sense of non-existence; in all cases that I am aware of, the thought of nothing stimulates dimensionality, empty space if you will. This also includes words like void, true vacuum, nihilo, and plenum, and yes, existence.
This just means that “nothing” is not being correctly conceived. You have derived your meaning from what the mind may wrongly think, or that the person may rely on mental images, but the imagination, in this instance, only interferes with a proper conception.
The only thing that can truly be labeled “nothing” in the meaning of non-existence is a single point of space imagined from its interior so that it doesn’t exist in a background of dimensionality and that falls into the category with squared circles, effects without causes, and the fourth and higher spatial dimensions. At a deeper level of thought, “non-existence” does not exist.
By the very fact you can refer to a point in space, etc. indicates that the subject is some-thing and not no-thing. Hence, there is no logical warrant for calling it “nothing”, a nothing that supposedly exists.
What I have been trying to explain with my spatial model of dual reality is a possible way of describing creatio ex nihilo based on physical concepts,
You may as well try and conceive of a round square. Creatio ex nihilo cannot be “described”. Furthermore, it cannot be conceived by means of physical concepts, or in spatio-physico terms.

You just can’t get there from here. The mere attempt leads to greater errors, or as Aristotle said, a little error in the beginning amounts to a colossal one in the end.
…namely by applying the distinction in space determined by the mathematics of rational versus real numbers. Can you offer anything better to counter the non-believers arguments about creation?
The first consideration is whether human reason is sufficient to the task of proving creatio ex nihilo in tempore of the universe, or whether it is strictly a matter of Revelation and faith. Aquinas thought creation in time could not be proven. Apparently, you have made an assumption in this matter, one which says it can be proven. In any case, in light of the above comments, I do not see that you have a meaningful argument.
Sorry, but the “existence" argument just won’t wash. Since joining this forum, especially on my own thread "God Exists, but How?’
When you ask “how” God exists, it indicates that the ontological reality that “God is Existence” did not register with you. Nor should it, unless you have some background in classical metaphysics.
in order to present my model of dual reality as a possible physical explanation about how God might have created reality,
You are committing a category error. There can be no “physical explanation” whatsoever of that which transcends the physical. In other words, your train has been running on the wrong track.
 
The square root of 0.00729735… is 0.08542455…
Yes. You are right. I was wrong on that, as I forgot the square root. I apologise for my error of not taking the square root.
Now why is the square root of this inverse such an important detail ?
 
Now why is the square root of this inverse such an important detail ?
It’s the (observed or effective) charge of an electron, or more precisely, it’s proportional to the charge of an electron by the choice of measurement units.

Feynman called it the “observed coupling constant, e the amplitude for a real electron to emit or absorb a real photon”, because he was normalizing by sqrt(4pi), where 4pi is the solid angle of the whole sphere.
 
Is the gravity post a joke?

How many ifs and assumptions are there in the Big Bang?
 
I don’t know where the gravity post is. I obviously have’nt been following the thread.🤷
 
Ahahahaha… Lol is this a joke
a big bang could not and did not produce the universe for it is not possible to get something from nothing - a big bang will do what big bangs normally do viz end this Universe and at the same time produce nothing from something and also presumingly something else from this something viz new heavens and a new earth - there was no big bang for red shift and background radiation evidences are inconclusive. The laws of thermodynamics,gravity and information theory are,however,conclusive,There was no big bang[CSM 317] - a big bang did not and could not start this Universe but will surely end it - twinc
 
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