Bigotry...

[limabeanerson]

I’m not in the situation so for all I know this lady could be a bigot and if she is, shame on her.

However, If/When I own my own business I will absolutely give “favors” to regular customers. Its not wrong, its GOOD BUSINESS! If you come to my store every day and then after a few months of this are $.05 short do you really think its smart of me to tell you to go home and grab a nickel while your coffee gets cold? Or would it be smarter, from a business/profit point of view, to take into account the amount of money I have made from you in the past and the potential loss of that money if I upset you by being a stickler on a nickel?

Now, as a business owner, you don’t want to be giving out a nickel here and a nickel there to every person that walks in or it quickly eats up your profits.

 

[mdrummer5]

Otherwise, I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.

Could be… but again given how often I see it I really don’t think so especially given that we’re not related, she doesn’t love me (at least I hope not), has no reason to feel sorry for me and doesn’t even know my name.

As far as human nature and the idea that…

We have laws and customs and norms that deal with that.

It doesn’t change the fact that a cheating man could say “it’s human nature”. As a woman you wouldn’t accept that would you? You can’t justify an act with one thing and then not have it apply to another scenario when it doesn’t suit your point.

 

[mdrummer5]

Good you recognise that. Of course you will see it more often if that’s what youre going out to see, consciously or unconsciously.

Sarah x

It’s not that I’m looking for it… it’s just there. She openly makes comments after a customer she wasn’t too thrilled with leaves. They may not entail certain words explaining why but believe me… it’s obvious. You see someone often enough you can’t help but notice patterns in behavior.

Or would it be smarter, from a business/profit point of view, to take into account the amount of money I have made from you in the past and the potential loss of that money if I upset you by being a stickler on a nickel?

To a very small degree I agree with this. Both by technical definition are descrimination… the difference is intent. Given that she would allow me that, by your logic should she not allow the same from a new customer for the sake of not upsetting them so that they come back?

 

[Della]

Could be… but again given how often I see it I really don’t think so especially given that we’re not related, she doesn’t love me (at least I hope not), has no reason to feel sorry for me and doesn’t even know my name.

As far as human nature and the idea that…

It doesn’t change the fact that a cheating man could say “it’s human nature”. As a woman you wouldn’t accept that would you? You can’t justify an act with one thing and then not have it apply to another scenario when it doesn’t suit your point.

I believe you are laboring under the illusion that every moral action ranks the same. Let’s take cheating on a spouse, for example. How does that rank compared to showing dislike for a customer. They’re not the same sort of moral problem. One woman’s minor display of bigotry, if it is bigotry, is hardly as serious as cheating on a spouse. Even natural law tells us why.

It may make you disgusted to see a sign of bigotry (once again if that’s what you’re actually seeing), but it’s just as bad for you to presume you know the woman is being a bigot without real proof. Better to pray for her and be kind to her than worry about her attitude towards her own customers.

 

[atheistgirl]

It doesn’t change the fact that a cheating man could say “it’s human nature”. As a woman you wouldn’t accept that would you? You can’t justify an act with one thing and then not have it apply to another scenario when it doesn’t suit your point.

You can. We have laws and norms and customs that say one man one woman. Thats the rules of the game in most societies. If I had been born tens of thousands of years ago, I may well have simply been a baby machine. But we have evolved and moved on. We are what we are now, so thats what we work with. There’s no reverse evolution.
Thats just so utterly and completely different to giving someone a break.

Sarah x

 

[mdrummer5]

I believe you are laboring under the illusion that every moral action ranks the same. Let’s take cheating on a spouse, for example. How does that rank compared to showing dislike for a customer. They’re not the same sort of moral problem. One woman’s minor display of bigotry, if it is bigotry, is hardly as serious as cheating on a spouse. Even natural law tells us why.

Just because something “ranks” lower on some scale that nobody really understands does not make it any less of an issue.

It may make you disgusted to see a sign of bigotry (once again if that’s what you’re actually seeing), but it’s just as bad for you to presume you know the woman is being a bigot without real proof. Better to pray for her and be kind to her than worry about her attitude towards her own customers.

Proof? Is eye witness testimony not accepted in a court of law? Is it not how we got the gospels???

I see the way she treats people on a regular basis, I have witnessed it several times. Bottom line she blatantly treats a well dressed white person better than she treats a poorly dressed black person. Whether it’s because of skin tone or attire I can’t say and it doesn’t matter it’s still wrong.

Look at it this way… as I’ve stated repeatedly I’m in this store on a regular basis, at least 2-3 times a week. Let’s say I’ve only been there for two years. It stands to reason then I’ve been in there at least 200 times (I’d bet my next paycheck it’s been more). I would say that I’ve seen such things at least 25% of that time. 50 incidents of such behavior is not just a random occurence… it’s a pattern of behavior.

 

[Della]

Just because something “ranks” lower on some scale that nobody really understands does not make it any less of an issue.

But it does. There’s mortal sin and venial sin. This is, at most, a venial sin. It’s not up to you to judge this woman, all the same. That’s God’s job, so leave it to him.

Proof? Is eye witness testimony not accepted in a court of law? Is it not how we got the gospels???

I see the way she treats people on a regular basis, I have witnessed it several times. Bottom line she blatantly treats a well dressed white person better than she treats a poorly dressed black person. Whether it’s because of skin tone or attire I can’t say and it doesn’t matter it’s still wrong.

Look at it this way… as I’ve stated repeatedly I’m in this store on a regular basis, at least 2-3 times a week. Let’s say I’ve only been there for two years. It stands to reason then I’ve been in there at least 200 times (I’d bet my next paycheck it’s been more). I would say that I’ve seen such things at least 25% of that time. 50 incidents of such behavior is not just a random occurence… it’s a pattern of behavior.

It doesn’t matter if you are right or not. If there’s nothing you are willing to do about it, why bring it up? So you can feel more righteous than this hard-working woman whom you hardly know? Either you can do something to help her change her attitude or you can’t. If you can’t then let it go. Let those who are actually being treated badly, if they are being treated badly, worry about it. As I wrote before, you can’t legislate people’s feelings/fears/hopes/desires, etc. You can only set a good example for her by what you say and do.

 

[mdrummer5]

It doesn’t matter if you are right or not. If there’s nothing you are willing to do about it, why bring it up?

Perhaps you missed the part of my OP that indicated I was simply venting my frustrations about it.

Beyond that I am not judging her and am fully aware that it is God’s place to do so. I’m judging the acts that I’ve witnessed. We all as moral beings have the ability to do that.

IOW if a spouse cheats… we can all judge to the extent to say it’s wrong. But judgment of the person in question is obviously God’s domain.

 

[Waiting]

I think you may be looking for her to be saintly. We can’t tell other people how to think and act. This is a free country, and if she wasn’t breaking a law, or being outright nasty, I don’t think it’s your place to say anything to her. Also, you don’t know her background to know what’s influencing her actions. Be polite to her. Pray for her. Maybe you can influence her that way.

 

[YankeeRC]

Sadly, I see the most bigotry from people nowdays,expecially young people. This may sound strange because its usually older people accused of bigotry, but young people today are forever claiming this is racist, that is racist to no end. They seem to have no idea what that word truly means and the sorrow it carries with it. They throw it about like its a cheap political bargaining chip. Its a damn shame.

And they assume, presume and label every action they see as bigoted.

OP, are you so sure this is all because of the young mans skin color and thug dress code or are you presuming this person is a racist and seeting up your own controlled experiments to back up your pre-judgements?

 

[Della]

Perhaps you missed the part of my OP that indicated I was simply venting my frustrations about it.

Beyond that I am not judging her and am fully aware that it is God’s place to do so. I’m judging the acts that I’ve witnessed. We all as moral beings have the ability to do that.

IOW if a spouse cheats… we can all judge to the extent to say it’s wrong. But judgment of the person in question is obviously God’s domain.

It’s laudable to be concerned for the way others are treated. Nothing wrong with that, but I think the target of your ire is probably not as deserving of it as someone who would beat up another out of bigotry. Sure her attitude probably contributes to the overall bigotry some show, but it’s a minor incident in the life of the nation. As more and more blacks enter the mainstream of society such attitudes will dissolve. Young black men who dress the way you described are trying to hang onto their black identity, she finds it offense and/or silly. Both people are operating under separate delusions, IMHO. The young man will probably grow out of this stage of his life. One day, when he’s in a business suit instead of gangster gear, he may become the daily customer who gets good treatment from the same woman (if she’s still alive and still doing the same job). We have to let people makes their own mistakes and grow in their own way towards maturity and good will. It can’t be forced. As I and others have written, all you can do is be a good example to them both. Give the young man a role model to aim for and the woman a kindly response. Love moves mountains while bile only sours.

 

[Della]

Sadly, I see the most bigotry from people nowdays,expecially young people. This may sound strange because its usually older people accused of bigotry, but young people today are forever claiming this is racist, that is racist to no end. They seem to have no idea what that word truly means and the sorrow it carries with it. They throw it about like its a cheap political bargaining chip. Its a damn shame.

And they assume, presume and label every action they see as bigoted.

OP, are you so sure this is all because of the young mans skin color and thug dress code or are you presuming this person is a racist and seeting up your own controlled experiments to back up your pre-judgements?

That’s basically the point I was trying to make by using the example of gang killings. The PC nonsense leads to everyone judging everyone else’s actions instead of bringing people together, as those who promote it seem to think it will. Not every negative reaction to another is out of bigotry/hatred due to race. These days it’s conservative white women who draw the most hatred from the very people who claim tolerance is everything. Bigotry and hatred cut both ways no matter who employs it.

 

[mdrummer5]

OP, are you so sure this is all because of the young mans skin color and thug dress code or are you presuming this person is a racist and seeting up your own controlled experiments to back up your pre-judgements?

First, yes I’m sure.

Second I’m beyond insulted at the implication that I’m trying to back up any amount of prejudice. I would have no motive to do so. I have no reason to try to prove this person is racist, especially to this forum. Again, the purpose of my OP was simply to vent about what I’ve noticed.

Also, consider the definition of the word prejudice…

“an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason”

I’ve already explained that I’ve witnessed this sort of thing from her on numerous occasions. So I have knowledge that it happens and thought and reason suggest that it’s not just been several random occurences. It’s not random at all, it’s a pattern of behavior.

 

[mdrummer5]

Not every negative reaction to another is out of bigotry/hatred due to race.

I realize this and NEVER stated anything to the contrary but even that goes both ways. Even now you’re quick to assume that I’m somehow over sensitive to such things and that it’s obviously a problem with my perception when you’ve not seen what I’ve seen.

Young black men who dress the way you described are trying to hang onto their black identity

This is an ignorant statement. This is the same kind of statement as someone hearing a black man speak articulately and say “you sound like a white guy”. No… he sounds intelligent.

In this case… the man in question is not “dressing like a black guy” or hanging on to his “black identity” he’s dressing like a young person who doesn’t realize that he looks ridiculous that way.

Edit: To clarify… would you say that if he started wearing a suit and tie every day that he let go of his “black identity”?

 

[atheistgirl]

In this case… the man in question is not “dressing like a black guy” or hanging on to his “black identity” he’s dressing like a young person who doesn’t realize that he looks ridiculous that way

You calling him ridiculous could be loaded with bigotry, prejudice and racism to some ears and eyes.
He might say he’s dressing in a codified manner that says up yours to convention and identifying with his ‘‘blood’’ !!!
Do you know the whole thing about no belts and pants hanging off the backside is to make an empathetic statement of brotherhood with their ‘‘blood’’ in prison where no belts are allowed?
It’s not just a fashion statement. It’s a gangsta statement. And it’s far from ridiculous - it’s well thought out and calculated.
And you seem to know a lot that is difficult to know - you seem to know the motives of the woman in the store, you seem to know the motivation behind the black guys dress sense.

Sarah x

 

[mdrummer5]

You calling him ridiculous could be loaded with bigotry, prejudice and racism to some ears and eyes.
He might say he’s dressing in a codified manner that says up yours to convention and identifying with his ‘‘blood’’ !!!
Do you know the whole thing about no belts and pants hanging off the backside is to make an empathetic statement of brotherhood with their ‘‘blood’’ in prison where no belts are allowed?
It’s not just a fashion statement. It’s a gangsta statement. And it’s far from ridiculous - it’s well thought out and calculated.
And you seem to know a lot that is difficult to know - you seem to know the motives of the woman in the store, you seem to know the motivation behind the black guys dress sense.

Sarah x

I didn’t call HIM ridiculous I said he LOOKED ridiculous, huge difference there and I’m sorry but if you’re wearing your pants in such a way that I can read the label on your underwear… you look ridiculous.

Assuming you’re right and my ability to see his underwear is a statement about the justified disallowance of belts in our prison system, I will give you that the idea is noble but that doesn’t make the look any less ridiculous and I highly doubt that all men dressed this way are making that same statement.

 

[atheistgirl]

I will give you that the idea is noble.

I dont see the slightest bit of nobility in identifying with convicted ganstas, murderers, drug dealers and rapists. But that’s just me.

Sarah x

 

[mdrummer5]

I dont see the slightest bit of nobility in identifying with convicted ganstas, murderers, drug dealers and rapists. But that’s just me.

Sarah x

The way you describe it and from their point of view, it is. It would be their way of showing respect would it not? Whether or not you or I respect that same person is irrelevant.

 

[YankeeRC]

First, yes I’m sure.

Second I’m beyond insulted at the implication that I’m trying to back up any amount of prejudice. I would have no motive to do so. I have no reason to try to prove this person is racist, especially to this forum. Again, the purpose of my OP was simply to vent about what I’ve noticed.

Also, consider the definition of the word prejudice…

“an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason”

I’ve already explained that I’ve witnessed this sort of thing from her on numerous occasions. So I have knowledge that it happens and thought and reason suggest that it’s not just been several random occurences. It’s not random at all, it’s a pattern of behavior.

You have witnessed hear actions, but you are not her, nor can you speak for her motives.

Perhaps she intensely dislikes people who show off their underwear? Perhaps he pulls this all the time on line? Perhaps you remind her of someone and thus the favoritism shown you? Can you really be so sure?

I had a woman in a deli berate me, a regular customer, for never presenting proper change. I explained to her I dont carry change and I often go to the ATM just before buying lunch hence the $20’s. It made her none the happier. We just can’t read anything more into why some people have quirks like that.

 

[mdrummer5]

You have witnessed hear actions, but you are not her, nor can you speak for her motives.

Perhaps she intensely dislikes people who show off their underwear? Perhaps he pulls this all the time on line? Perhaps you remind her of someone and thus the favoritism shown you? Can you really be so sure?

I had a woman in a deli berate me, a regular customer, for never presenting proper change. I explained to her I dont carry change and I often go to the ATM just before buying lunch hence the $20’s. It made her none the happier. We just can’t read anything more into why some people have quirks like that.

I see your point… but I never claimed to know her motives.

Whether it’s because of his skin, his underwear showing or just that she doesn’t like Joe Boxer underwear it’s still wrong. Discrimination in that way regardless of the motive is wrong.

The woman in the deli… well… that’s just silly on her part. I agree that yes some people have some odd quirks but they do not justify treating people unequally.